Minebea Panaflos?

[gamingphreek]

I heard that some new updated Panaflos have been released. Unfortunately i can only find it in some UK place. Google turns up nothing. Does anybody have any info on this?

-Kevin

[Edward Ng]

Someone else mentioned that Dorothea lady carrying them, and she's in UK. Use the search.

[Tibors]

Ed, that was the answer I wanted to give him too. But then I read the question again. I think he wants to know a supplier in the US or at least North America

[gamingphreek]

Ed, that was the answer I wanted to give him too. But then I read the question again. I think he wants to know a supplier in the US or at least North America

Yep that is what i meant

[Edward Ng]

Ed, that was the answer I wanted to give him too. But then I read the question again. I think he wants to know a supplier in the US or at least North America

Yep that is what i meant

Ah, sorry that I don't know; actually, I am interested in this as well...

[Aleksi]

I strongly suggest you do contact her. Her prices are cheap and shipping is also very cheap. So shipping to North America may not be too expensive. The weak dollar however gives you less buying power at the moment.

[yeha]

i remember a while ago seeing panaflo part numbers listed on nmb's site, or actually it was an nmb reseller (newark?) listing nmb as the manufacturer of panaflo part numbers. either way, i figured it was a quirk and forgot about it

here's a pdf from nmb's tech site listing the panaflo part numbers we all love, but i haven't been able to find anything official listing how the new nmb-panaflos are different. perhaps the manufacturing is just stricter now, so the "only" difference (but the biggest to our community ) will be hopefully less motor noise and less variability between samples.

now we need some spcr'ers to test them!

[frankgehry]

Yeha,
This is from the dorothy bradbury site.

The merger created a super-tier-1 Japan fan/motor/bearing maker, the new M3 fans are the result of a revised product:
lower friction fluid dynamic bearings, exceptionally low noise, new smoothness & tighter acoustics and now new blades.

[Mr_Smartepants]

I just put in an inquiry to Dorothy for the L1A and M1BX variants of the 80mm Panaflos.
They are expensive (~$13 ea at current exchange rate) but if the quality is improved they might be worth it. We'll see. If I order, I'll get them in about a week.

[Aleksi]

Hi

I have ordered these fans from Dorothy, but the problem is, that i have not tried the "Japanoflos", so I cannot give a comparison. However, I should have a Japanoflo 80L1BX coming in this week, so I'll test them. However, the new Panaflos have much smaller differences within and between batches. This was not the case with the Panaflos made Japan.

I have both 80L1A and 80M1A and both are very good fans, very little or no bearing noise. Mostly airflow generated noise. Best 80mms fan I have had and best when compared to the samples of Papst and Silentblade I have had. And I'm speaking of bearing noise.

I asked Dorothy to post some information about the Minebea Panaflo fans to this thread. Hope she replies here. I have had many discussions with her about these fans and she has really enlightened me with his information. It would be good for someone to break the myth about Chinaflos being less good when compared to Japanoflos, as this is obviously not the whole truth.

[bishyb]

I see she's also stocking "Sorbothane Feet/Mounts" these days.

Might be good for anti-vibration pump mounting

[gamingphreek]

Ok, Dorothy Bradbury has just explained everything to me:

April 2004
o Panaflo-Minebea merged to create M3

June 2004
o Minebea completed redesigning all Panaflo processes
o Boxes now marked as Matsushita-Minebea-Motor (M3)
o All fans produced after June 2004 are new model M3
o However there is a lag before distributors have that production

M3 fans are identified by their production date:
o Top left code = year / month / day / production-code
o Code of 4F23 = 2004 / June / 23rd
o M3 fans are thus fans with codes after 4F, eg, 4G 4H 4I 4J 4K

My Panaflos have a 4I code, so I have the new ones... and didn't even know it!

Darn... i have the 9I's. I pulled that from the AT thread im posting in currently.

-Kevin

[jafb2000]

In brief.

______________
Identifying M3:

Panaflo fans have 2 lines of codes on the label:
o 1st-line -- production year / month / date / plant + fan option code
---- eg, "4F23**** - 1A"
o 2nd-line -- part number
---- eg, "FBA08A12L"

M3 fans started in June 2004:
o 1st-line starts 4F or later
---- 4F = 2004 June
---- 4H = 2004 August and so on
o Crate marked Matsushita Minebea Motor
---- that will be abbreviated to M3
---- crates no longer bear the word Panasonic

So M3 fans are 4F, 4G, 4H, 4I, 4J, 4K, 4L - from China M3 plants.
Only exceptions are 4E & 4D for 2 rare fans.

__________________________
Supply of M3 will be tough:

There are 3 pools of Panaflo on the planet.

Liquidation pool -- dominant outside USA, common within USA/Asia
o Typical seller -- only does 1-2 fans as that's all that exist (80L1A, 120M1A)
o Pool content -- mix of Old China & Old Japan, some Japan are better
---- pool is a mix of damaged/surplus/returned/liquidation/out-of-date
---- pool depletes in quality as best picked out & rest moved on
---- typically 1996-2002 production dates - top-left label code starts 6-7-8-9-0-1-2
o Price competitive -- you sell the best higher, you sell the worst on lower
---- hence the pool churns in quality and availability re its supply

Re-issued stock -- will dominate briefly
o Product changed -- Minebea-Panaflo merged Apr04, redid fans by June 2004
---- new M3 fans start 4F (2004 June) or later (4G 4H 4I 4J 4K 4L)
-------- only 2 exceptions I know of, a handful of 4D & similar of 4E
---- new M3 fans in boxes marked Matsushita Minebea Motor (M3)
-------- label has not changed, probably Nov05
o Supply changed -- M3 closing duplicate warehouses/distributors
---- closed warehouse stock goes back up the chain & re-issued
---- so little new M3 supply is needed since all that must go out
---- plus I suspect top-line integrators get the new M3 in preference
---- plus distributors want it all gone before a label change
o Pool content -- new, but old stock
---- pool is a mix of production dates - 2000-2004, China & Japan
---- typically 2002-Mar04, top-left label code starts 02-04

Brand new M3 stock -- limited supply
o Rarely seen -- distributors are selling both re-issued old & new M3 stock
---- they work on first-in-first-out re not left with old stock
---- so as the old 2A-4D comes in, that must go out not say 4F 4G 4J (M3)
o Expensive -- most sellers prefer liquidation or Papst or relabelled
---- new M3 Panaflo profit = 64-113p/fan
---- versus liquidation Panaflo profit = 400-900p/fan
---- versus new Papst profit = = 600-1000p/fan v
---- versus new Relabelled generic profit = 600-1700p/fan
o Reality -- need to sell 10-17x Panaflo to match profit on 1x Papst/relabelled

The tight supply of M3 will see several models vanish for a time.
However, it is worth it - the difference is quite noticeable.
I received 100 Japan Panaflo 92L1A (4D) this morning, 94 returned
since only 6 were equivalent to 100 Panaflo 92L1A (China 4J).

So Old China pre 4F, Old Japan pre 4F & then M3 (post 4F).

[jafb2000]

Couple of notes to add...
o Some fans are OEM - so different codes
o Starting 9, or a letter is an example

These changes are quite normal - and incremental.
o Unless you have a particularly bad old model
o There is little to particularly gain from a new model
o However if buying, it is worth considering

It is very much like different revisions of a motherboard,
or processor, or RAMDAC supplier choice, or HD programming.


There is a programme of continuous improvement:
o Change may bring cost/quality/speed/performance improvement
o Change with a fan can bring an acoustic benefit - or cost

Predicting acoustic impacts of change is difficult:
o What you don't monitor, you can't control - re spec
o What physics of acoustics to monitor - re cause & effect

Most of the China v Japan re old Panaflo comes from this.
A textbook case of outsourcing *secondary impact*.

o 80mm L in Jan-Feb 2004 starting coming from China (4A-4B)
---- part had been outsourced - spec was the same
---- but how the spec was being /realised/ changed
o The change did not impact on performance
---- but it /did/ impact on acoustics
o Early 2003 had only 5% of 80mm L with acoustic artefacts
---- increasing thro 2003 by early 2004 it was over 35%
o Bearing friction had been increasing until QC triggered
---- the acoustic impact was obvious long before
---- acoustic efficacy of QC is not perfectly aligned

Therein is a lesson in outsourcing:
o You only control what you monitor
o Your outsoucing is only as good as the specification
o Specification does not always cover or predict acoustic

June 2004 - Minebea changed change in supply & QC process.

Oct 2004 - Change starting showing up re old stock lag,
as Panasonic advised I'd have to sit tight & check weekly.


So M3 have been supplied by me for several months.
It was only in Jan 2005 when I could supply only M3.


So it is about balance of probability:
o Pre 4F Panaflo date
---- China = 35% chance of being best (noticeably)
---- Japan = 65% chance of being better
o Post 4F Panaflo date
---- China = 85% chance of being best, 10% better, 5% worse
---- I select out that 5% & another 5-10% for industrial buyers

So I hope that makes it clearer:
o Buyers will report different results
o They are buying from 1 of 3 pools

The key difference isn't China v Japan, but date.
There will still be variation within a date, you might be the one
that gets one of the 5% even of the post 4F date - and so you know
the peculiar reality is they are in groups in the crates

That said, 100x 92L1A 4D Japan arrived, 94 went to industrial buyers
since only 6 came close to the later 92L1A 4J M3s - surprised even me.
Nothing post 4F comes from Japan, may end up doing motors etc.

Papst have had the same "pick around the apple tree", indeed so do
most products - right back to programming of SCSI HDs, DATs etc.

It's a good example of how outsourcing (even to a tight specification),
can result in an impact downstream in the hard-to-predict acoustics.

Minebea fixed it - no idea of the new logo graphics.
At present MMM is basically in the same font as Minebea it seems.

[cpemma]

I've just received a couple of 80mm L1A from DB (4H coded, made in China), seem OK over 5-12V, no problem.

But had I known Dorothy hand-picked, I'd have mentioned my SPCR membership...

[jafb2000]

All fans are hand picked irrespective of the buyer

Consistency wise:
o Older fans -- about 3-5 levels of acoustic variation
---- from few-tone to multi-tone-this-one-is-kirk-cobaine's-voice (30%)
o Recent fans -- about 2 levels of acoustic variation
---- pure single-tone (85%) to muted-few-tone (15%)

So with recent fans trying to select within that 85% is pointless,
that for me is the key difference - narrowing of the distribution.

Example currently would be a 92L1A Japan 4D v M3 4H/4J, the
former has a muted few tones, the latter a pure single tone (at last).

I've gone thro enough to know the M3 have improved.
However I would still like some improvements - as always.

A lot of 3C 1BS 80mm L are coming thro, 3 distributors have them,
and substituted for 1A fan orders (same spec), acoustically not great.
Definately in the very noticeable segment of multi-tone level.

So that is why people will report variation.
Bad enough to identify Physics Of Failure on electronics, but when you
then want to identify Physics of Acoustics that can be an "adventure".
Like taking an CAD drawing of an engine and working out how it sounds,
you know basically, but you'll end up trying various tricks to quieten it.
Preload on camshafts re lifter backlash, bracing on bottom-end/top-end,
distance of oil pan surface to engine, & oil pan make up re reflections.
NVH is still a "method of limits" heuristic work in to eliminate things.
--
DB.

[Mr_Smartepants]

A lot of 3C 1BS 80mm L are coming thro, 3 distributors have them,
and substituted for 1A fan orders (same spec), acoustically not great.
Definately in the very noticeable segment of multi-tone level.

Are you saying that you have 80mm L1BS or L1BX (RPM sensing) fans available? Your website doesn't list those 'hard-to-find' model numbers.

[Ralf Hutter]

I got three of the M3 80mm Chinaflo M1BX's from Digi-Key a few weeks ago. Their code is "4J".

After running them for 24+ hrs to break them in, here's what I found:

One is excellent, very quiet at 5V and nearly no clicking.

One is pretty decent, with a slight hum and slight clicking at 5V.

One is pretty bad, with very noticeable clicking even at 5V.

So, FWIW, my three M3's seem to behave just like run-of-the-mill Chinalfos: some are good, some aren't.

[jafb2000]

No - sorry I was not clear.


Global distributors have several production codes of 80mm L.

Some are latest M3 models
o 4H 4G 4F in L1A -- 85% superb, 10% great, 5% not acceptable
o Single pure tone -- better than the old Panasonic Japan/China fans

Some are old Panasonic models
o 3C in L1BS -- 70% inferior to M3, 20% not acceptable
o L1BS == L1A -- Panasonic cleared them out and will substitute for L1A


That's it.


I dislike substitution re date (3C for >4F) or option code (L1BS for L1A)
o Recall 80mm L in 1AZ vs 1A
o Identical specs -- just solid corner (Z)
o Inferior acoustically -- <20% of 1AZ matched the Japan fans
o So sent 80% to industrial buyers, who preferred (fitted threaded inserts


I'm not happy really:
o Distributors should have shifted the 3C (Mar03) stock years ago
---- but Panasonic only JUST supplied them (re ending duplicate supply/warehousing)
o So now we have older Panasonic stock (3C, some 3K) mingling with new
---- some of which is "equivalent substitution" - eg, L1BS for L1A

I will drop the 80mm L until I can guarantee all M3.
o Eventually I want 80mm L in M3 at £1-1.50 less than current prices.
o So am currently investigating other distributors - re guarantees.

In place will be 80mm M from M3, which is 4J, and now very nice.

Of course, Papst sound like a rap concert compared to any Panaflo,
so plans to bring back 8412NGML/2 @ £6.99 delivered are dropped.
The 4412 has gone to the dogs too, 4312 also (discontinued soon).
However Papst do the best 172-450mm, nice 200mm diagonal flow.
--
DB.

[jafb2000]

I don't find 3 as a representative sample, at all.
o Individual packed fans are subject to handling/shipping
o Crated fans have that partly reduced

My comments are from testing over 11,000 fans in 2004.
No point sending out bad only for it to come back.

80mm L
o Old Panasonic China & Old Panasonic Japan
---- clear deterioration in acoustics which peaked in early 2004
---- Jan00 (0A) -- 1-3% had anything identifiable, rest identical & great
---- Feb04 (4B) -- 43% had anything identifiable, rest merely passable
o New M3, Matsushita Minebea Motor
---- Jun04 (4F) -- 12% had anything identifiable, 5% poor, rest back to great
---- Jul04 (4G) -- 9% had anything identifiable, 5% poor, rest really great
---- Aug04 (4H) -- 9% had anything identifiable, 5% poor, rest nearly as great


Indeed most of the dislike of "China 80mm L" comes from the 4A 4B.
At a time when liquidation/surplus sellers had...
o 0A-2K Japan -- which tended to be all better
o 0B-3K China -- which only had 35% better, 65% worse = perception worse

Those who carried latest stock were being covered like mushrooms.
Paid 4-5x the price of liquidation sellers for their fans.


92mm L
o Old Panasonic (China & Japan)
---- deterioration in patches through 2004 - late 2003 92L1BX were great
---- problem -- ringing like a damn bell, vibration, chatter, multi-artefacts
---- solution -- select out, switch between 92L1BX to 92L1A to 92L1BX to 92L1A
---- so masked the inbound problem from outbound customer supply
o New M3, Matshushita Minebea Motor
---- Aug04 (4H) -- 92L1BX superb - better than 90% of old 92L1A 4D 4E Japan
------------------ however ran out of stock a few weeks back
---- Sep04 (4J) -- 92L1A best - better than any 92L ever supplied by Panasonic
------------------ still waiting for an offish one

To argue there is no change does not match my findings.

Monday:
o 92mm L1A Old-Japan - 4D -- 100+5 (105) in 2 deliveries
o 92mm L1A MMM (M3) -- 4J -- 20+9 (29) in 2 deliveries
o Just 13 of the Old-Japan 4D matched the 29 identical, perfect, M3 4J

Now perhaps M3 managed a perfect 20+9 across 2 suppliers.
Perhaps, however they had 105 4D fans from 2 suppliers to beat.

On balance - the M3 is coming out ahead.
If it did not I would select production dates from earlier.
Whilst I recently switched back to 4G 60L1BX over 4H 4J, I did not switch
back to 4E which had more vibration, more rough per crate (12 v 1).

Compared to the variation over 3x36 Papst (3 crate), Panaflo vary little.
However, at least on M3 the variation is now getting much less and in
some instances the fans are markedly better. The problem is when you
know how good the best can be from a crate, that becomes the benchmark.
At the moment the 4J 92L1A wipe the floor with the old ones, at the moment
the 4G/4H 80L seem markedly better & less variation than Panasonic 4A 4B.

Very few people compliment the 92mm L - now they have begun to.
It was a good fan on price, on airflow - now it is a good fan on acoustics.

If it changes, I will hop around the production codes again.
I will also threaten to bring 8412NGML/2 back at £6.99 if unhappy.
--
DB.

[jafb2000]

Hang on a minute - 5V ??

Minimum operating voltages are:
o Papst 8-15V -- NATO fave
o NMB 6-13.8V -- don't get excited
o Panaflo 7-13.8V -- don't get excited below 7V

You are triggering the locked-rotor stall logic at 5V.

All my testing is done @ 12V - 12.01V.
I've no idea how they perform at 5V, it's just too low.

If you want to run fans at 5V, you need "brain dead fans"
which do not use a microprocessor to manage them. That
means no soft-edging on switching, crude transistor based
switching - that means no tier 1 (at all) & ideally few poles.

I don't think the tacho circuit will even work at 5V.

Applies to PWM also, "suck before you buy" if you can.
Even the Papst PWM solutions don't work on all their fans,
and a Papst PCM001 on say a 120M1A will growl like a dog.

I'd assume a 7V minimum operating voltage for all fans,
and NMB also because their switching is noticeable at 6V.
NMB value line (all mine were extended life) will do 6V ok tho.
--
DB.

[sthayashi]

Jafb2000,

Even though many of our European users are repeat customers of your business (we North Americans want a North American version of you), it seems that you're not too aware of what we do and how crazy we are.

Operating at 5v or close to it is what we do frequently. Panaflos consistantly start at that voltage for us (at least the L & M series). I don't know about the rotor stall voltage, but I know that the RPM circuit on the M1BX works fine at 5v.

Many of us actually consider the Panaflo L1A at 12v to be too loud for our use. I know that if I turned my 5V'ed L1A up to 12V, it would easily be the loudest piece of equipment in my system.

[jafb2000]

Noted - and USA tends to have hard (true hardwood) floors
where any noise will carry and reflect quite remarkably.

It seems there is a strong case for an S1A.

You may know...
o Panasonic Panaflo pilotted a new fan in late 2003
---- technically H2-2003, it was actually just Nov-Dec
o It was called the FBZ series
---- blades were Alliance series - worlds most advanced CFD design
---- bearing was pivot - below hydrowave/hydrodynamic
o The cheaper pivot bearing is inferior - but quieter
---- however I do not believe it was the key reason for noise drop
o The blade design I suspect was the key reason
---- together with other changes to the fan design

The fan itself was never released onto the broad market.
It existed only in 60x25mm, FBZ-06A-12 to a "pilot of OEMs".

Probing technical staff at Minebea/Panasonic has yielded that
it is not coming back in that form - no FBZ will be released. It
was tried just before Panasonic-Panaflo merged with Minebea.

However, there are key changes later this year:
o Nov05
---- more fan sizes (form factors)
---- more fan depths (particularly I suspect 38mm or "G")
o Strong indications re of S spec fans
---- these would be below L spec

The unknown is whether L itself falls further like the FBZ, and
whether the Alliance fan blade design is utilised in them. Thus,
whether we see "additions to the range" or a "revised range".

As an example, here is the spec of the FBZ 60mm:
o S = 13.1cfm @ 19.0 dB(A)
o L = 15.9cfm @ 22.5 dB(A) v 14.1cfm @ 24dB(A) FBA
o M = 18.4cfm @ 27.0 dB(A)
o H = 21.5cfm @ 30.5 dB(A) v 19.1cfm @ 32dB(A) FBA
o U = 24.0cfm @ 33.5 dB(A)

So the S spec nearly matches the old L at 5dB(A) lower.

Fan sizes...
o 25 30 40 45 60 70 08 92 102 113 120 125 140 160 180mm
Fan depths
o 10 13 15 20 25 32 38 51 63 65mm

Some of those will remain appliance specials, but not all.
The FBL range may or may not continue - dunno (FBL 120mm $$$
and is definately older production stock on the planet 2000-2002).

Re changes...
"we are now in the process of upgrading our incoming QC proces
that is focused at achieving a higher level of consistent quality.
The process will take until mid-Summer to finalize, and with
a lengthy pipe-line it may be a while before it reaches you. I'd
expect that when done our performance consistency will improve."

That is from Panasonic.

It's partly useless - because Panasonic is re-issuing older stock:
o Above refers to PRODUCT changes - finished end of June 2004 (4F)
---- some changes I suspect occurred a little earlier, some later
---- I Gantt chart the worst/best acoustic for each production code & crate
---- within that I know the distribution from the actual fans
o Now you also have SUPPLY changes - merging warehouse/distribution
---- which directly means you end up with older stock re-supplied
---- Panasonic Kent Wa USA warehouse isn't stocking anymore
---- so some supply will be older for a (hopefully) brief time

So a case of "getting better", but what you get may vary still.
There are at least 37,000 80mm L of 2001-2003 (0A-3L) in the end
user facing supply chain - USA, UK & EU (which is Germany). To put
that in perspective there are under 3,000 80mm L of >4F globally.

If I were Panasonic, I'd push new >4F to OEMs/integrators, and push
the older stock out to distributors & even older to liquidation/surplus.
That is exactly what they are doing - hence little >4F supply out there.

So hope that clarifies:
o Distribution acoustically has tightened
o Some fans are now actually quite decent - 92mm L - beyond just price
o Some fans still need some work - why oh why isn't there an S below L
o Consistency acoustically has tightened

Most of that is the hand of Minebea.
--
DB.

[Mr_Smartepants]

I got three of the M3 80mm Chinaflo M1BX's ... Their code is "4J".

After running them for 24+ hrs to break them in, here's what I found:

One is pretty bad, with very noticeable clicking even at 5V.

I'll have to agree with Ralf on this one. I just received my two fans from Dorothy this morning (very fast service BTW. Cheers!)
After breaking them in for only eight hours (I'm impatient) here's the report.
FBA08A12M-1BX (4J12A73 Code) Made in China
Motor hub noise (bearings?) very noticeable at all voltages (12V-5V). Sounds like gurgling?

FBA08A12L-1A (4H26A73 Code) Made in China
Same motor hub noise as above but more muted at all voltages (12V-5V).

I know that one fan of each model is nowhere near the ideal for sampling accuracy but I admit I was disappointed in the noise signature of both fans. They both emitted a medium frequency 'gurgling' noise that was persistent throughout the voltage range of my fanmate.
This new (4H) L1A was no match for my (0I) L1J (Made in Japan).

I know, I was shooting for the moon. Oh well.

I'll continue breaking them in overnight but I don't expect the results to change any.

[jafb2000]

I'm dissappointed.

However, the 01 etc are the older Japan and non current.


It comes down to a "blip in the middle":
o Early-2003 to Early-2004 -- 3C to 4B
---- acoustic QC variation from outsourcing - initially China, then Japan
---- by 3C I had to use noticeable hand selection (15/100)
---- by 4A 4B I had to use lots of hand selection (43/100)
o Before Early-2003 (Panasonic)
---- Japan & China very good, variation was 6-12/100
o After Early-2004 (MMM)
---- China very good, variation 3-9/100


Bottomline:
o 4H /are/ a marked improvement on the 3C to 4B
---- so for people buying factory fresh fans it is an improvement
o Factory channels simply do not have the older fans
---- there is a "date window" which moves with inventory

I call 3/100 MMM vs 43/100 Panasonic (3C-4B) an improvement.
It concurs with Panasonic's email - MMMs improvements realised.


There is an area of personal preference here:
o 1994-04 Japan have a different frequency profile to 2004+ MMM
---- the noise is thinner and more uni-frequency
---- however those fans suffer more axial & radial rotor runout
o However consistency of 2004+ MMM is back to that of pre-2003 Japan
---- the noise is thin, but shifted in frequency
---- those fans suffer less axial & radial rotor runout


Burbling could be the rotor moving past the hall-effect sensors:
o In fixing axial/radial runout, changing the rotor changed acoustics
o Burbling is a function of motor & rotor blades, not the bearing


It's interesting to contrast:
o 4D Japan 92mm L1A -- some people say they prefer Japan here
o 4H 4J MMM 92mm L1A -- I find these a more attractive thinner note

The difference is splitting hairs - but I prefer the latter.
Distributors & I have both those fans.


The MMM are the latest product - better than other factory offering.
I can't get the older fans as not in the factory chain.