I have just finished testing my latest batch of Chinaflo fans 5 tested and 5 below par . This is the first time I have had 100% bad ( bad being by degree)
These fans although useable in a quiet computer would be unacceptable to most of the readers here . This is also the first batch of panaflo "L" fans I have had with a noticeable whine at 12v. These fans are not faulty , just louder than previous batches that I have purchased . I generally recomend Panaflo fans on this forum but if I get another batch like this I will not even buy them again.
My latest batch of 80mm Panaflo fans - Not Good
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
-
Aleksi
- Friend of SPCR
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:34 pm
- Location: Finland -- Folding For SPCR
Hi,
can you tell the production batch for them? 4F, 4H etc?
Some of the early China made Panaflos were crappy, but after the merger it seems the MMM Panaflos are getting better and better. Although, I must admit I've only ordered from Dorothy who does the hand picking. Personally I feel that from the newer Chinaflos the best production batches have been 4F23 80M1A and 4G05 80L1A, both very good. But then again, there have been batches that aren't up to SPCR standard, fanophile quality
can you tell the production batch for them? 4F, 4H etc?
Some of the early China made Panaflos were crappy, but after the merger it seems the MMM Panaflos are getting better and better. Although, I must admit I've only ordered from Dorothy who does the hand picking. Personally I feel that from the newer Chinaflos the best production batches have been 4F23 80M1A and 4G05 80L1A, both very good. But then again, there have been batches that aren't up to SPCR standard, fanophile quality
At 12V, my Panaflo L1A would be the biggest noisemaker. I think anyone with a decently quiet computer would notice this. The question is, is it quiet at lower voltages? Not all fans are.
Note: if your panaflos weren't all that quiet at lower voltages, I wouldn't be too surprised. Yours isn't the first post I've read about Panaflo quality becoming worse recently.
(P.S. I turned up my fan controller to max out the Panaflo on my CPU. It seems to be exceptionally loud when maxed out, complete with some sort of rattling which wasn't there before).
Note: if your panaflos weren't all that quiet at lower voltages, I wouldn't be too surprised. Yours isn't the first post I've read about Panaflo quality becoming worse recently.
(P.S. I turned up my fan controller to max out the Panaflo on my CPU. It seems to be exceptionally loud when maxed out, complete with some sort of rattling which wasn't there before).
-
Aleksi
- Friend of SPCR
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:34 pm
- Location: Finland -- Folding For SPCR
sthayashi,,
I'm sorry but I have to point some things out. People always speak about Chinaflos. What should always be mentioned is the production date/batch. This is the key thing here. When the manufacturing was moved to China there were seriopus quality problems, this is apparently where the Chinaflos got the "crap" stamped on them. However, they keep getting better (2004 and on).
As you can read from my posts, I've sampled about 50 newer (MMM) Panaflos, some are very good while some of them haven't been up to SPCR levels. However, there have been engineering samples from production batches made this year, that could actually be better than the Panaflos made in Japan.
Again, my 0,02€.
I'm sorry but I have to point some things out. People always speak about Chinaflos. What should always be mentioned is the production date/batch. This is the key thing here. When the manufacturing was moved to China there were seriopus quality problems, this is apparently where the Chinaflos got the "crap" stamped on them. However, they keep getting better (2004 and on).
As you can read from my posts, I've sampled about 50 newer (MMM) Panaflos, some are very good while some of them haven't been up to SPCR levels. However, there have been engineering samples from production batches made this year, that could actually be better than the Panaflos made in Japan.
Again, my 0,02€.
I must have missed this bit.Aleksi wrote:As you can read from my posts, I've sampled about 50 newer (MMM) Panaflos, some are very good while some of them haven't been up to SPCR levels. However, there have been engineering samples from production batches made this year, that could actually be better than the Panaflos made in Japan.
Sorry, I haven't exactly been keeping up with all the latest posts these last few weeks due to personal reasons, though I've been trying to keep up with the major events.Now the good/bad things I've read have mostly been from Ralf Hutter here and elsewhere. One thing I've learned is that when Ralf Hutter speaks, you listen or prepare to pay the price
.Anyways, Ralf found no change in MMM series, and this was meant to be a step up for Panasonic. So hence, my lack of complete surprise if Panasonic went downhill a little bit.
Finally, I just wanted to remind pony-tail (which I'm sure that both you and him are aware) that even at 12V, Panaflos weren't all that impressive.
-
frankgehry
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:00 am
- Location: New York, NY
adda 80mm fan deal
Try some of these. I know they are automatically taken out of lian-li cases and replaced by nexus, but that doesn't mean they're bad, it just means the nexus brand has more cache and they can charge more.
http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/80mm_case_fan.html
The model number is ADD812DB-A70GL and I think the D means extra low speed and the GL means low noise. $3.00 each. - FG
http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/80mm_case_fan.html
The model number is ADD812DB-A70GL and I think the D means extra low speed and the GL means low noise. $3.00 each. - FG
Re: adda 80mm fan deal
According to specs those are really quiet.frankgehry wrote:Try some of these. I know they are automatically taken out of lian-li cases and replaced by nexus, but that doesn't mean they're bad, it just means the nexus brand has more cache and they can charge more.
http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/80mm_case_fan.html
The model number is ADD812DB-A70GL and I think the D means extra low speed and the GL means low noise. $3.00 each. - FG
There are various series of Panaflo's...
____________________________________________
Geriatric Liquidation Stock - various makers...
o Source
---- old warranty reserve, old supplier stock as exit supply chain
---- typically Clearance, Surplus suppliers, Ebay clearance
o Quality
---- some may be fine - some may not be
---- eg, ball-bearing require rotation every 6 months
---- eg, handling directly affects acoustics
o Production Date
---- various, may be 1994-2002
o Products
---- Panaflo FBK model (ball bearing, various)
---- Papst 4312L lineage (discontinued model)
---- Papst 8412 lineage (some older stock)
_____________________________________________
Early Liquidation Stock - mainly FBA 80mm L1A...
o Source
---- too old for return, liquidation/surplus stock, aged etc
---- typically Clearance, Surplus suppliers, Ebay clearance
o Quality
---- some may be fine - some may not be
o Production Date
---- typically 2000-Jan, 2002-Dec fans, top left code 0A-2K
o Production Location
---- Panasonic Japan 0A-2K slightly better than China 0A-2K of that era
---- Panasonic China used a different manufacturing process & design
As yet this seems the dominant stock.
However as it declines the returns & older stock get turned over to
another supplier or liquidator, and so the pool of good fans decreases.
This is offset by pricing ~7-10x cheaper than new fans - more profit.
_____________________________________________
Later Liquidation Stock - mainly FBA 80mm L1A...
o Source
---- just edging out of distributors re age
---- typically Clearance, Surplus suppliers, Ebay clearance
o Quality
---- some may be fine - some will require selection
o Production Date
---- typically 2003-Jan, 2004-Feb, top left code 3A-4B
o Production Location
---- Panasonic Japan 3A-3K beats China of same period
---- Panasonic Japan 4A-4B 57% not very nice at all, 43% ok
---- Panasonic China 3C & 3K in particular a bit "scrapy"
---- Panasonic China 4A-4B 40% not very nice at all, 20% better than Japan 4A-4B
---- figures based on >3,700 NEW stock, not liquidation which may be different
As yet this stock doesn't seem common.
It is a little too recent, altho some OEM in HK/EU/Aus comes under this
category. This is a riskier lineage than the previous (ironically) as it
is smack in the outsourced component window. So Early Liquidation whilst
it is a few years old may acoustically sound superior. If longevity is a
more important criterion then later counts particularly if ball bearing.
I suspect the 4A-4B (2004-Jan 2004-Feb) variation due to plant windup,
plus component outsourcing was used on the run up to that windup.
2004-April - Panasonic & Minebea merge to create MMM:
o Minebea (NMB) Matsushita (MAT, Panaflo) Motor Corporation
---- HQ remains in Osaka Japan
---- 50 Minebea plants, 3 Panasonic plants
o Final phase will be NMB-MAT label
---- underlying fan designated by part code
________________________
Current Production stock...
o Source
---- Main MMM distributors
o Quality
---- marked difference, if not already sold out & backordered
o Production Date
---- typically 2004-Jun, 2005-Mar, top left code 4F-5C
o Production Location
---- MMM China - different mouldings to old China, new fonts, labels etc
---- many new models on the way, new sizes, new depths of fans
______________________
OEM fans kicking about...
o Source
---- if qty limited, typically "someone bought 100 to get 42 required"
o Quality
---- same as current, may be difference in specs (eg, 1BS Panaflo or /9 Papst)
o Production Dates
---- various, approved by MMM or from other suppliers (for warranty use)
o Production Location
---- Papst will be Germany
---- Panaflo will be Japan - warranty/embedded applications (broadcast video)
---- NMB will be Indonesia, others may be China, immaterial re NMB
So far no label change to NMB-MAT as far as 5C 5D.
So I suspect it may be Q4 2005, several new models due them also.
________________________
MMM different to Panaflo - Direct from Panasonic
o 30-Apr-2004
---- "we are now in the process of upgrading our incoming QC process
---- that is focused at achieving a higher level of consistent quality.
---- The process will take until mid-Summer to finalize, and with a
---- lengthy pipe-line it may be a while before it reaches you. I'd
---- expect that when done our performance consistency will improve."
o Mid summer is roughly 4F top left code
---- marked difference on some fans
Anyone disputes that, I suspect they take it up with Minebea directly.
Certain fans are markedly different...
FBA 92mm L1A
o Panasonic China 3C-3K -- decent, but noticeable decline thro that year
---- hopping around required, but generally far better than China FBA 80mm L1A
o Panasonic Japan 4D -- consistent -- little ringing, little scraping, little vibration
---- sample of 170, tight variation
o M-M-M China 4J ------ perfect -- no ringing, no scraping, no vibration
---- sample of 102, tighter variation, received best feedback, at last a good 92mm fan
---- small sample so I expect 2-5% to suffer 4D characteristics (minor)
FBA 80mm L1A
o Panasonic China 3C & 3K -- variable -- scraping, 50% slightly noisier, under 25% quieter
----- sample of 700, noticeable variation, like 8412NGML in broadband harmonics
o Panasonic Japan 4A & 4B -- variable -- 57% not happy with - scraping mainly
---- sample of 400, unacceptable variation, bit worse than 8412NGML in broadband harmonics
o Panasonic China 4A & 4B -- variable -- 52% not happy with - scraping mainly
---- sample of 400, unacceptable variation, like 8412NGML in broadband harmonics
o M-M-M China 4G ----------- good ------ back up to Japan level, quieter, smoother
---- sample of 300, no ringing, no scraping, smoother narrowband distribution, 2-4% not spot-on
o M-M-M China 4H ----------- good ------ not quite as good as 4H, but similar to Japan level
---- sample of 700, no ringing, no scraping, 3-7% not spot-on
Certain fans are little changed...
o 80x15mm L -- improved slowly as time has gone on
---- 5C 4K very good, others good, fan too easily damaged
o 120mm M -- 4I seems better than 4G/4E, altho "not much in it"
---- these are a different product to other Panaflo
o 40mm L -- not worth bothering with, stick with the 20dB(A) NMB
---- NMB reference spec have a closed bearing, quieter/pricier than open bearing
o 60mm -- L is slightly improved, 4G 4H 4J are ok, the H model is a perfect 60mm
MMM availability is poor...
o Many models are sold-out & back-ordered status
o Back-order demand is outstripping future production schedule
o Production availability is slipping continually on some models
Shipping is an issue...
o In each crate & package the position of fans w.r.t. damage (even double boxed) matters
---- that is from a review of around 170 crates
---- despite the fluid bearing having a G rating of 60 vs 40 for ball bearing
o Packaging is important, standing/running time after shipment seems to help
---- I suspect some oil cavitation re boundary layer film on fluid dynamic bearing
---- whatever, all improve after a short time
This may also be due to the chevron/cam precision required for a fluid bearing.
The key change was to inbound QC process...
o Panaflo had outsourced a couple of components
---- which led to scraping being heard - especially Japan/China 4A/4B
o Acoustic change obvious as Panaflo are a narrowband noise
---- contrast with an 8412NGML/2 which is more broadband noise
---- so whilst 8412NGML/2 vary in level, their spectrum remains similar
o MMM changes specifically fixed the QC issues
---- one reason why their fans sound more "narrowband"
---- in doing so you may notice other aspects of the sound
Therein is the aspect of qualitative interpretation.
Reduce the noise of one fan in a PC, and you become aware of another fan
or that other fans acoustic characteristics. Similarly, when you remove a
factor in a fans noise spectrum you may notice other factors. That has led
to some fans sounding a little different (better, fortunately) - such as
the 80mm M & 80mm U sound rather nice - vibration free, just airflow sound.
I suspect at some point another change is due.
o Some schematics indicate a different fan housing
---- it looks like the FBZ model - alliance series (NMB+MAT)
---- which has markedly better specification
o Whilst the FBZ is never coming back (piloted for 2 months to OEMs)
---- that is the direct answer from MMM/Panasonic
o That does not mean that its attributes will not be integrated into existing fans
---- I suspect at some point they will
Asking directly I get no answer at all on either NMB-MAT label changeover,
or on whether NMB-MAT will eventually integrate those developments (which
are the most advanced blade/housing CFD profiles ever done & work well).
AFAIK liquidation stock supply is still 2000-2002, 0A-2K.
o There are 2 pools
o East/HK - tends to dominate EU, Aus, HK markets
o West/USA - tends to dominate USA (Ebay/Major), UK (80mm L), some EU markets (Sweden)
The NMB-MAT label change will see a big tidal wave of "anything with a
Panaflo label on it" shoved out globally. However codes will help. Some
Japan & China are to be avoided, some are fine - some of the old Panasonic
China are in fact better than the Japan (but you'd need to sample a lot
Some of the later liquidation China are horrid if not selected.
If someone selects or returns build, they have to have somewhere for them
to go - that is either an outright loss (bin) or other liquidation sellers,
or to industrial buyers who buy on specs in qty & in noisy machine rooms.
Liquidation stock gives people far higher margins so they should select,
their margins are similar to Papst (£5-10/fan margin) or even generic
rebadged which are typically 68p fans relabelled (£7-17/fan margin).
Supply is poor or non-existent on some models as major buyers have now
moved to Panaflo (not just the HP DEC-Alpha SUN SGI IBM Aligent), which
in turn leaves nothing available. Alternatively they source surplus stuff.
Minebea consistency is the highest of all, and will overlap into Panaflo.
Intel spec'd new sizes will be the first to appear I guess, Q4 2005.
Then some deeper versions of fans (80x38mm, 92x38mm G spec like 120mm G). No sign of the NMB-MAT label however - same timeline I guess. Revised specs on many models also due around them.
____________________________________________
Geriatric Liquidation Stock - various makers...
o Source
---- old warranty reserve, old supplier stock as exit supply chain
---- typically Clearance, Surplus suppliers, Ebay clearance
o Quality
---- some may be fine - some may not be
---- eg, ball-bearing require rotation every 6 months
---- eg, handling directly affects acoustics
o Production Date
---- various, may be 1994-2002
o Products
---- Panaflo FBK model (ball bearing, various)
---- Papst 4312L lineage (discontinued model)
---- Papst 8412 lineage (some older stock)
_____________________________________________
Early Liquidation Stock - mainly FBA 80mm L1A...
o Source
---- too old for return, liquidation/surplus stock, aged etc
---- typically Clearance, Surplus suppliers, Ebay clearance
o Quality
---- some may be fine - some may not be
o Production Date
---- typically 2000-Jan, 2002-Dec fans, top left code 0A-2K
o Production Location
---- Panasonic Japan 0A-2K slightly better than China 0A-2K of that era
---- Panasonic China used a different manufacturing process & design
As yet this seems the dominant stock.
However as it declines the returns & older stock get turned over to
another supplier or liquidator, and so the pool of good fans decreases.
This is offset by pricing ~7-10x cheaper than new fans - more profit.
_____________________________________________
Later Liquidation Stock - mainly FBA 80mm L1A...
o Source
---- just edging out of distributors re age
---- typically Clearance, Surplus suppliers, Ebay clearance
o Quality
---- some may be fine - some will require selection
o Production Date
---- typically 2003-Jan, 2004-Feb, top left code 3A-4B
o Production Location
---- Panasonic Japan 3A-3K beats China of same period
---- Panasonic Japan 4A-4B 57% not very nice at all, 43% ok
---- Panasonic China 3C & 3K in particular a bit "scrapy"
---- Panasonic China 4A-4B 40% not very nice at all, 20% better than Japan 4A-4B
---- figures based on >3,700 NEW stock, not liquidation which may be different
As yet this stock doesn't seem common.
It is a little too recent, altho some OEM in HK/EU/Aus comes under this
category. This is a riskier lineage than the previous (ironically) as it
is smack in the outsourced component window. So Early Liquidation whilst
it is a few years old may acoustically sound superior. If longevity is a
more important criterion then later counts particularly if ball bearing.
I suspect the 4A-4B (2004-Jan 2004-Feb) variation due to plant windup,
plus component outsourcing was used on the run up to that windup.
2004-April - Panasonic & Minebea merge to create MMM:
o Minebea (NMB) Matsushita (MAT, Panaflo) Motor Corporation
---- HQ remains in Osaka Japan
---- 50 Minebea plants, 3 Panasonic plants
o Final phase will be NMB-MAT label
---- underlying fan designated by part code
________________________
Current Production stock...
o Source
---- Main MMM distributors
o Quality
---- marked difference, if not already sold out & backordered
o Production Date
---- typically 2004-Jun, 2005-Mar, top left code 4F-5C
o Production Location
---- MMM China - different mouldings to old China, new fonts, labels etc
---- many new models on the way, new sizes, new depths of fans
______________________
OEM fans kicking about...
o Source
---- if qty limited, typically "someone bought 100 to get 42 required"
o Quality
---- same as current, may be difference in specs (eg, 1BS Panaflo or /9 Papst)
o Production Dates
---- various, approved by MMM or from other suppliers (for warranty use)
o Production Location
---- Papst will be Germany
---- Panaflo will be Japan - warranty/embedded applications (broadcast video)
---- NMB will be Indonesia, others may be China, immaterial re NMB
So far no label change to NMB-MAT as far as 5C 5D.
So I suspect it may be Q4 2005, several new models due them also.
________________________
MMM different to Panaflo - Direct from Panasonic
o 30-Apr-2004
---- "we are now in the process of upgrading our incoming QC process
---- that is focused at achieving a higher level of consistent quality.
---- The process will take until mid-Summer to finalize, and with a
---- lengthy pipe-line it may be a while before it reaches you. I'd
---- expect that when done our performance consistency will improve."
o Mid summer is roughly 4F top left code
---- marked difference on some fans
Anyone disputes that, I suspect they take it up with Minebea directly.
Certain fans are markedly different...
FBA 92mm L1A
o Panasonic China 3C-3K -- decent, but noticeable decline thro that year
---- hopping around required, but generally far better than China FBA 80mm L1A
o Panasonic Japan 4D -- consistent -- little ringing, little scraping, little vibration
---- sample of 170, tight variation
o M-M-M China 4J ------ perfect -- no ringing, no scraping, no vibration
---- sample of 102, tighter variation, received best feedback, at last a good 92mm fan
---- small sample so I expect 2-5% to suffer 4D characteristics (minor)
FBA 80mm L1A
o Panasonic China 3C & 3K -- variable -- scraping, 50% slightly noisier, under 25% quieter
----- sample of 700, noticeable variation, like 8412NGML in broadband harmonics
o Panasonic Japan 4A & 4B -- variable -- 57% not happy with - scraping mainly
---- sample of 400, unacceptable variation, bit worse than 8412NGML in broadband harmonics
o Panasonic China 4A & 4B -- variable -- 52% not happy with - scraping mainly
---- sample of 400, unacceptable variation, like 8412NGML in broadband harmonics
o M-M-M China 4G ----------- good ------ back up to Japan level, quieter, smoother
---- sample of 300, no ringing, no scraping, smoother narrowband distribution, 2-4% not spot-on
o M-M-M China 4H ----------- good ------ not quite as good as 4H, but similar to Japan level
---- sample of 700, no ringing, no scraping, 3-7% not spot-on
Certain fans are little changed...
o 80x15mm L -- improved slowly as time has gone on
---- 5C 4K very good, others good, fan too easily damaged
o 120mm M -- 4I seems better than 4G/4E, altho "not much in it"
---- these are a different product to other Panaflo
o 40mm L -- not worth bothering with, stick with the 20dB(A) NMB
---- NMB reference spec have a closed bearing, quieter/pricier than open bearing
o 60mm -- L is slightly improved, 4G 4H 4J are ok, the H model is a perfect 60mm
MMM availability is poor...
o Many models are sold-out & back-ordered status
o Back-order demand is outstripping future production schedule
o Production availability is slipping continually on some models
Shipping is an issue...
o In each crate & package the position of fans w.r.t. damage (even double boxed) matters
---- that is from a review of around 170 crates
---- despite the fluid bearing having a G rating of 60 vs 40 for ball bearing
o Packaging is important, standing/running time after shipment seems to help
---- I suspect some oil cavitation re boundary layer film on fluid dynamic bearing
---- whatever, all improve after a short time
This may also be due to the chevron/cam precision required for a fluid bearing.
The key change was to inbound QC process...
o Panaflo had outsourced a couple of components
---- which led to scraping being heard - especially Japan/China 4A/4B
o Acoustic change obvious as Panaflo are a narrowband noise
---- contrast with an 8412NGML/2 which is more broadband noise
---- so whilst 8412NGML/2 vary in level, their spectrum remains similar
o MMM changes specifically fixed the QC issues
---- one reason why their fans sound more "narrowband"
---- in doing so you may notice other aspects of the sound
Therein is the aspect of qualitative interpretation.
Reduce the noise of one fan in a PC, and you become aware of another fan
or that other fans acoustic characteristics. Similarly, when you remove a
factor in a fans noise spectrum you may notice other factors. That has led
to some fans sounding a little different (better, fortunately) - such as
the 80mm M & 80mm U sound rather nice - vibration free, just airflow sound.
I suspect at some point another change is due.
o Some schematics indicate a different fan housing
---- it looks like the FBZ model - alliance series (NMB+MAT)
---- which has markedly better specification
o Whilst the FBZ is never coming back (piloted for 2 months to OEMs)
---- that is the direct answer from MMM/Panasonic
o That does not mean that its attributes will not be integrated into existing fans
---- I suspect at some point they will
Asking directly I get no answer at all on either NMB-MAT label changeover,
or on whether NMB-MAT will eventually integrate those developments (which
are the most advanced blade/housing CFD profiles ever done & work well).
AFAIK liquidation stock supply is still 2000-2002, 0A-2K.
o There are 2 pools
o East/HK - tends to dominate EU, Aus, HK markets
o West/USA - tends to dominate USA (Ebay/Major), UK (80mm L), some EU markets (Sweden)
The NMB-MAT label change will see a big tidal wave of "anything with a
Panaflo label on it" shoved out globally. However codes will help. Some
Japan & China are to be avoided, some are fine - some of the old Panasonic
China are in fact better than the Japan (but you'd need to sample a lot
Some of the later liquidation China are horrid if not selected.
If someone selects or returns build, they have to have somewhere for them
to go - that is either an outright loss (bin) or other liquidation sellers,
or to industrial buyers who buy on specs in qty & in noisy machine rooms.
Liquidation stock gives people far higher margins so they should select,
their margins are similar to Papst (£5-10/fan margin) or even generic
rebadged which are typically 68p fans relabelled (£7-17/fan margin).
Supply is poor or non-existent on some models as major buyers have now
moved to Panaflo (not just the HP DEC-Alpha SUN SGI IBM Aligent), which
in turn leaves nothing available. Alternatively they source surplus stuff.
Minebea consistency is the highest of all, and will overlap into Panaflo.
Intel spec'd new sizes will be the first to appear I guess, Q4 2005.
Then some deeper versions of fans (80x38mm, 92x38mm G spec like 120mm G). No sign of the NMB-MAT label however - same timeline I guess. Revised specs on many models also due around them.
-
Ralf Hutter
- SPCR Reviewer
- Posts: 8636
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
- Location: Sunny SoCal
Hey, nice! At least somebody knows how things work around here!sthayashi wrote:
Now the good/bad things I've read have mostly been from Ralf Hutter here and elsewhere. One thing I've learned is that when Ralf Hutter speaks, you listen or prepare to pay the price
FWIW, my sample size was a whopping 3 fans, although Aleksi seems to have found similar results with his 50 piece sample. Based on this, I don't hold out lots of hope for good Panaflos any time soon.sthayashi wrote:Anyways, Ralf found no change in MMM series, and this was meant to be a step up for Panasonic. So hence, my lack of complete surprise if Panasonic went downhill a little bit.
-
StarfishChris
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:13 pm
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Contact:
I've had three FBLs from Dorothy and they were consistent at 12v: a little whine but dominated by airflow noise. With two of them at 5v the narrowband noise was obvious due to less turbulence, but still pretty quiet. Virtually the same at 7v, too. They're good fans, but I don't have a Nexus or Japanaflo to compare to. They may be better in terms of motor noise but turbulence may increase in my situation; I think it's a matter of horses for courses.
-
Aleksi
- Friend of SPCR
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:34 pm
- Location: Finland -- Folding For SPCR
Sorry Ralf, but I don't really think this is entirely correct. Also, if you look at Dorothy post, that would also indicate otherwise. I'm trying to say, that people shouldn't be bashing China made Panaflos without decent knowledge/experience about them and with opinions made up from a small sample amount. (no, not firing at you RalfRalf Hutter wrote:... Based on this, I don't hold out lots of hope for good Panaflos any time soon.
)If a normal user tries out the any of the newer Panaflos, he/she will think it's the quitest/best ever they have heard. But SPCR is a bit different, we are probably the only user group that samples fan like headphones. This is a thing I'm also guilty of. The truth is, that none of the Panaflos I've had weren't "bad" enough to be heard outside the case (regarding bearing noise, clicking etc..)
I've had only ONE sample of a Japan made Panaflo, which actually had "bearing" noise, caused apparently by the tacho, as it was a 80L1ABX. So I do NOT have a comparison point like for example Ralf has. However, I still would recommend China made Panaflos over Papst, Silentblade, etc even Nexus depending on the usage. But do note, I've bought all of them from Dorothy, so I am "spoiled", because she does hand pick. If you get them from an industrial seller (Digikey, Arrow etc...) you don't get that luxury. Could this be one explanation between our different views?
Did I just break the golden rule sthayashi pointed out about Ralf?
It is a great pity that there is not a seller like Dorothy in AU. her info has explained a lot about what is going on.
Where I get my fans you just have to take what you get .
If the particular wholesaler actually sends exactly what you ordered.
I believe That with companies like Delta electronics , ADDA , et al now taking an interest in silent fans (including anechoic chamber tests) that the fans we use today will be considered intolerable in a year or two as development progresses . and it is just that up until now the manufacturers did not think that low noise was a major marketing point . I'm hoping anyway
Where I get my fans you just have to take what you get .
If the particular wholesaler actually sends exactly what you ordered.
I believe That with companies like Delta electronics , ADDA , et al now taking an interest in silent fans (including anechoic chamber tests) that the fans we use today will be considered intolerable in a year or two as development progresses . and it is just that up until now the manufacturers did not think that low noise was a major marketing point . I'm hoping anyway
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frankgehry
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:00 am
- Location: New York, NY
If I were in au, besides drinking fosters and going out to the topless beaches, I would look for fans in some of the electronics supply houses rather that pc stores. JMC fans are on par with yate loon D12SM-12's in my opinion and Bi-sonics are sold in the states at www.mouser.com, a big electronic supply house. JMC's website is www.jmcproducts.com.
I think that Nidecs might be good also but I haven't been able to find a supplier for less that 200 fans. Nidec makes bearings for hard drives. - FG
Even delta has a few fans that I really like. The triple blade low speeds are pretty good. The 80 is nice as well as the 120. The 92 has a little bit more motor noise than I would like. These can be seen at www.sidewindercomputers.com. Delta's are not just for helicopters and tanks.
I have all of the yate loons, pabst, nexus, coolermaster, panaflos, etc. and the JMC is way up there on my list. - FG
I think that Nidecs might be good also but I haven't been able to find a supplier for less that 200 fans. Nidec makes bearings for hard drives. - FG
Even delta has a few fans that I really like. The triple blade low speeds are pretty good. The 80 is nice as well as the 120. The 92 has a little bit more motor noise than I would like. These can be seen at www.sidewindercomputers.com. Delta's are not just for helicopters and tanks.
I have all of the yate loons, pabst, nexus, coolermaster, panaflos, etc. and the JMC is way up there on my list. - FG
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Ralf Hutter
- SPCR Reviewer
- Posts: 8636
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
- Location: Sunny SoCal
Sorry bro, but based on the way I read Dorothy's post, plus your (statistically fairly decent) 50pc sample, and even my statistically crappy (as noted in my post: "FWIW, my whopping...") sample that are all giving quite similar results, added to all the vagaries listed in the last part of Dorothy's post, my conclusion still stands, although the phrase should have been "consistantly good" to be as accurate as I intended it to be..Aleksi wrote:Sorry Ralf, but I don't really think this is entirely correct. Also, if you look at Dorothy post, that would also indicate otherwise. I'm trying to say, that people shouldn't be bashing China made Panaflos without decent knowledge/experience about them and with opinions made up from a small sample amount. (no, not firing at you RalfRalf Hutter wrote:... Based on this, I don't hold out lots of hope for good Panaflos any time soon.
If a normal user tries out the any of the newer Panaflos, he/she will think it's the quitest/best ever they have heard. But SPCR is a bit different, we are probably the only user group that samples fan like headphones. This is a thing I'm also guilty of. The truth is, that none of the Panaflos I've had weren't "bad" enough to be heard outside the case (regarding bearing noise, clicking etc..)
I've had only ONE sample of a Japan made Panaflo, which actually had "bearing" noise, caused apparently by the tacho, as it was a 80L1ABX. So I do NOT have a comparison point like for example Ralf has. However, I still would recommend China made Panaflos over Papst, Silentblade, etc even Nexus depending on the usage. But do note, I've bought all of them from Dorothy, so I am "spoiled", because she does hand pick. If you get them from an industrial seller (Digikey, Arrow etc...) you don't get that luxury. Could this be one explanation between our different views?
Did I just break the golden rule sthayashi pointed out about Ralf?
/Ralfie's outta here.......>
Is this of any help, or have you already tried?frankgehry wrote:I think that Nidecs might be good also but I haven't been able to find a supplier for less that 200 fans. Nidec makes bearings for hard drives. - FG
Sorry for waking up this thread with some offtopic Nidecs, but I can't find any Nidecs (AFAIK) as long as I am in Sweden.
Any luck finding them would of course generate a new thread.
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frankgehry
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:00 am
- Location: New York, NY
I was never able to find a nidec low speed 120x25. I did call nidec usa, but the distributors would only accept a large order. Oh well. - FG
Found a medium speed version if anyone is interested -
model a34341
Found a medium speed version if anyone is interested -
model a34341
I have not been online much lately - but I went to purchase some fans from
"PC Case Gear" in Au and to my surprise According to them Panaflo fans are now made by NMB !
Has anybody heard anything about this ?
LINK :- http://www.pccasegear.com/category33_1.htm
"PC Case Gear" in Au and to my surprise According to them Panaflo fans are now made by NMB !
Has anybody heard anything about this ?
LINK :- http://www.pccasegear.com/category33_1.htm
I'll just add my 2 cents in here..pony-tail wrote:I have not been online much lately - but I went to purchase some fans from
"PC Case Gear" in Au and to my surprise According to them Panaflo fans are now made by NMB !
Has anybody heard anything about this ?
LINK :- http://www.pccasegear.com/category33_1.htm
I have been using the 92mm low speed Pananflo's exclusively on my systems for CPU cooling , I own and run a company specialising in Silent PC DAW's here in Australia , the last 2 batches of the Panaflo's I purchase from the guys at PC Case Gear have been in short, crap. These are still branded Panaflo , not NMB , have RPM monitoring , and suffer from a consistant clicking sound that is quite noticable, some also suffer from a high pitched whine.
Although they will be fine for less critical environments, I have just left them on the shelf , actually shifting to Modified Silent Cat 92mm fans, that are surprisingly proving far more suitable at the prequired RPM range of 1700-1750 RPM, especially due to the reputation they have garnered here from some of the more vocal members.. Laugh it up boys, but quite simply, The Silent Cats at 1700 RPM are way , way better than the current Panaflo's , and I will not be buying the Panaflo's again . Damn, I even managed to stumble on some Y.S Tech 120 mmm fans that are kicking the arse out of Panaflo / Nexus .. buts thats a whole other thread..:-)
Anyone in Oz interested in some 92mm Panaflo's - cheap.. :-)
Peace :
Vin.