Lack of Proper Reviews?

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Aris
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Lack of Proper Reviews?

Post by Aris » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:37 pm

Mabey the title isnt exactly correct, but i couldnt think of a better way to phrase it.

Their are 2 primary sources for noise in a computer. A fan, and a hard drive. One of which is reviewed extensivly. the other is almost completely neglected. All we get are random sound bites, and some percieved opinions on a very select few. Of which they are scattered amung random non fan reviews such as powersupply and heatsink reviews.

Other than that, the only things ive seen as far as fan reviews are from individuals not associated with the site posting on the forums.

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Is their a reason why the single most significant source of computer noise on a "Silent PC Review" website isnt getting its proper spotlights?

I understand that at this point its a daunting task. But the site has been up for a while. At this point you should at least have gotten the most popular choices covered, and review new or newly discovered fans as they come up.

Erssa
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Re: Lack of Proper Reviews?

Post by Erssa » Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:04 pm

Aris wrote:Is their a reason why the single most significant source of computer noise on a "Silent PC Review" website isnt getting its proper spotlights?

I understand that at this point its a daunting task. But the site has been up for a while. At this point you should at least have gotten the most popular choices covered, and review new or newly discovered fans as they come up.
I would guess sample variance has a part in this. The fan manufacturers would also have to send in the fans. It's probably so small a market, that they simply don't bother.

GHz
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Post by GHz » Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:27 pm

I know you're looking for a review by SPCR, which is what we all want, but I thought I'd let you know that I'm working on another fan roundup myself. It will include:

• GlobalWin NCB 1202512L
• Yate Loon D12SL-12
• Scythe S-Flex SFF21E
• EBM-Papst 4412FGL

And possibly:

• Evercool EC12025M12CA
• JMC 1225-12LBA
• CoolerMaster SUF-S12/PL12S12L
• Mechatronics G1225S12B

Aris
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Post by Aris » Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:49 pm

what i'd like to see in a fan review:

Nexus
Papst
Panaflo
Yate-loon

80, 92, and 120mm sizes

ACTUAL dbA, and CFM. not just regugitated manufacturer specs like they have in the "recommended fan" section now.

recordings of each at 12v, 7v, and 5v

lowest voltage each will start at.

commentary on the quality of the noise at 12v, 7v, and 5v.

how each fan reacts to PWM control like the tBalancer

Average cost of each fan

dukla2000
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Re: Lack of Proper Reviews?

Post by dukla2000 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:35 am

Aris wrote:All we get are random sound bites, and some percieved opinions on a very select few. Of which they are scattered amung random non fan reviews such as powersupply and heatsink reviews.

Other than that, the only things ive seen as far as fan reviews are from individuals not associated with the site posting on the forums.
It would indeed be fabulous if there was a review table somewhere on the site.

However I can fully understand why not: the exceedingly difficult environment requirements to make repeatable tests! We need to measure relatively low dBA at relatively low cfm at relatively low static pressure. And then you get to the configurations each of us has - while 30cfm may be perfectly adequate cooling in my 20C ambient temps, the guy who has 30C ambient needs something completely different.

All the hard-core folks around here will have a shelf of fans they no longer love (and in some cases never loved to start with) and despite that would not be able to agree on the perfect fan. Hence the use of the forum as a superb place for reporting experiences to help the next person in their quest for their perfect fans.

sun.moon
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Post by sun.moon » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:34 pm

dukla2000 wrote:It would indeed be fabulous if there was a review table somewhere on the site.
...which is why I am eagerly looking forward to the continuation of mk's saga - IMHO a great grassroots effort and I wish him the best of luck!

jaganath
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Post by jaganath » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:42 pm

I'm working on another fan roundup myself. It will include:

• GlobalWin NCB 1202512L
• Yate Loon D12SL-12
• Scythe S-Flex SFF21E
• EBM-Papst 4412FGL

And possibly:

• Evercool EC12025M12CA
• JMC 1225-12LBA
• CoolerMaster SUF-S12/PL12S12L
• Mechatronics G1225S12B
Looking forward to it! :P

GHz, if you continue with your quality reviews there may well be a position on the editorial team waiting for you! :wink:

Felger Carbon
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Post by Felger Carbon » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:45 am

Aris wrote:what i'd like to see in a fan review:

Nexus
Papst
Panaflo
Yate-loon

80, 92, and 120mm sizes

ACTUAL dbA, and CFM. not just regugitated manufacturer specs like they have in the "recommended fan" section now.

recordings of each at 12v, 7v, and 5v

lowest voltage each will start at.

commentary on the quality of the noise at 12v, 7v, and 5v.

how each fan reacts to PWM control like the tBalancer

Average cost of each fan
Aris, let me ask this, seriously: how many man-hours would it take you to produce such a review? How many dollars out of pocket? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to point out the problem here.

When Mike produces a heat sink review, such as the recent HR-01 article, he reviews that one HS. What you want - and yes, what I want - is that much data on each fan of a long list. And my list has fans on it that aren't on yours. Add comments from ten other SPCR folk, and you'll add more fans to the list. Guess why Mike is not going to take two days to produce what we all want?

If we wait for the review that you and I and everybody else wants, we're going to wait a long long time.

As you've noticed, I've posted some comments on some fans recently. The fans are the ones I have and hence, the ones I'm interested in. Guess what? I get criticized because I didn't include XX's favorite fan! :)

While we're waiting for the massive, all-inclusive review, the one that lists the CFMs to 5 decimal places at 7 different voltages for 200 different fans, we need to stop and think what's possible and not what we all want.

El Doug
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Post by El Doug » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:54 am

im 100% certain that there was a speadsheet somewhere that had all of these readings for almost every model fan imaginable.

~El~Jefe~
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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:59 am

yes there was or is.

That's a pretty sour review of the fan section! that's the best info you will find besides the spreadsheet.

hard to really do a review without a calibrated and pricey sound meter, and, a sealed off sound proof room.

I dont foresee the regular spcr chap doing that all

cpemma
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Post by cpemma » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:32 am

El Doug wrote:im 100% certain that there was a speadsheet somewhere that had all of these readings for almost every model fan imaginable.
There's GIZzO's Fan Database, but (a) they're the makers' specs which you can check yourself, and (b) sadly outdated, and confined to fans easily obtained in GIZzOland - no Nexus, no Akasa, no Coolermaster, to name but three. There's also a spreadsheet I got somewhere (fanspecs.xls) but from November 2002, so again limited value. Must update my own version. :oops:

I find forum opinions are very valuable, especially in highlighting inconsistency of supply, which seems to be a problem with some brands. Checking that a maker's spec on flow and pressure is accurate is near-impossible without some very expensive equipment, but constructive comments from a dozen forum members will persuade me to dig into the wallet. And if I have to dig into my wallet again, and send my wife out for another shoe-box for the rejects, so be it. :shock:

What I like to see in fan-noise concerns are reviews of
  • Heat-sinks where the fan is an integral part
  • Power supplies, where the fan rating is fairly important and a swap will void the warranty
The noise samples down-loadable here are an excellent idea, I'd like to have available samples of "bad" effects too - this is what we mean by 'click', this is 'growl' etc.

Tephras
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Post by Tephras » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:30 pm

cpemma wrote:There's GIZzO's Fan Database, but (a) they're the makers' specs which you can check yourself, and (b) sadly outdated, and confined to fans easily obtained in GIZzOland - no Nexus, no Akasa, no Coolermaster, to name but three. There's also a spreadsheet I got somewhere (fanspecs.xls) but from November 2002, so again limited value. Must update my own version. :oops:
You probably got the spreadsheet from the article "Choosing Fans for Quiet, High Airflow: A Scientific Approach". In the article there's also an addendum in which the correctness of the data in that spreadsheet is questioned and a second spreadsheet where the figures supposedly is more accurate. Note, however, that both those spreadsheets are based on manufacturers specifications and that the numbers are merely theoretical.

Rusty075
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Post by Rusty075 » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:56 pm

Tephras wrote:Note, however, that both those spreadsheets are based on manufacturers specifications and that the numbers are merely theoretical.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. When looking at spec's you need to differentiate who the source is. A manufacturer, such as Panasonic, MNB, Yate-Loon, Papst, etc, will likely provide fairly accurate spec's. They have to, as their spec's are relied upon by other manufacturers to produce products that comply with regulations and guidelines. An appliance manufacturer is not going to test each model of fan from a variety of sources until they find one that meets their requirements. Instead they are going to select one based on published specs. And parallel with that, a manufacturer that has a product that either overheats or fails to pass noise level guidelines because the fan supplier lied about their spec's is going to get the lawyers involved very, very quickly. If you look at the tech doc's for all the "real" fan manufacturers they are very careful to spell out the testing protocols they follow. (AMCA Standard 210, etc.)

It's the resellers you have to watch out for. Companies that sell directly to the public, and don't make the fans themselves have free rein to outright lie to you. Not that they all do, of course. But generally if they won't tell you what testing methodology to come up with their numbers, there's a reason.

The trouble is telling the two apart. If you read the marketing blurbs from most fan resellers it sure sounds like they've got a team of engineers and a factory full of employees working round the clock on making them the best fans in the world....but in reality they're just buying fans by the container full and slapping a pretty label on them. 'Round here Silenx is the most notorious example, but that covers Antec, Aerocool, Nexus, Zalman, and many, many more.

cpemma
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Post by cpemma » Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:04 pm

Rusty075 wrote:
Tephras wrote:Note, however, that both those spreadsheets are based on manufacturers specifications and that the numbers are merely theoretical.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. When looking at spec's you need to differentiate who the source is. A manufacturer, such as Panasonic, MNB, Yate-Loon, Papst, etc, will likely provide fairly accurate spec's.
True, but with noise you need to be clear on which specification you're seeing. If I recall correctly, with noise, one spec method is the on-axis dBA at distance X, another the reading with the microphone to one side by distance Y at distance Z. Both official standards, both the same result units, but the two methods don't give the same result number. If you see a figure that looks too good to be true, it's probably true for the way the test was carried out.

Your last paragraph is unfortunately true.

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