What fan support this kind of plug? U/D: Sycthe's too noisy

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Happy Hopping
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What fan support this kind of plug? U/D: Sycthe's too noisy

Post by Happy Hopping » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:51 pm

Image

Image

My motherboard c/w a 4 pin variable fan control plug (the red one), and the fan has to c/w that 4 pin plug (first photo)

I like Scythe fan, Nexus fan, but all of their fan c/w 3 pin, not 4 pin. what can I do? Is there a 3 pin to 4 pin converter?

Alternatively, is there any quiet 120 mm fan that has 4 micro-pin plug?

I have no bay left for fan controller, not to mention I only need this for 1 fan only

Image

Also, if I plug a regular fan w/ the above adapter (it's a big plug to 4 pin adapter), would I get variable fan control via the motherboard?
Last edited by Happy Hopping on Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jessekopelman
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Post by jessekopelman » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:14 pm

That little 4-pin is a PWM fan controller. Scythe does make PWM fans, but they are not as quiet as their best 3-pin fans. Arctic-Cooling makes PWM fans that are at least as good as the Scythe PWM. Nexus supposedly has PWM fans as well, but I have never read anything about their quality (not everything Nexus is actually particularly good). If you run them a slow enough speed, the Scythe or A-C will be inaudible -- it's just a question of how much airflow you need and what size fans you can accommodate. You can actually attach a 3-pin fan directly to that connector with no adapter, but it will run at full speed only with no control possible. The 4-pin adapter you show in the last picture is for connecting a fan directly to a PSU -- no speed control or even RPM monitoring is possible using it.

cpemma
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Post by cpemma » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:35 pm

jessekopelman wrote:You can actually attach a 3-pin fan directly to that connector with no adapter, but it will run at full speed only...
...so in the absence of space for a bay-mount controller, you could add a Zalman FanMate to preset an adequately 'silent' speed.

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Post by ntavlas » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:00 am

A 4 pin fan header can also control 3 pin fans. This is possible in speedfan but many motherboards too give you this capability in bios.

The 4th cable is a pwm signal that both the fan and header need to support so it wouldn`t make sense to make an adaptor.

Anyway, the arctic cooling fan is quite decent but I think you could also do your job with a 3pin model.

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Post by cpemma » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:04 am

ntavlas wrote:A 4 pin fan header can also control 3 pin fans. This is possible in speedfan but many motherboards too give you this capability in bios.
I must have had a brainfart saying FanMate was needed, my own board has a 3-pin Scythe fan controlled perfectly by the 4-pin header. :oops: The Gigabyte BIOS autodetects the type of fan attached and supplies either PWM control or variable voltage control.

Looking at the photo of the header, you'll see the upright key is sized to locate a 3-pin plug onto the correct three header pins.

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Post by Happy Hopping » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:04 am

cpemma wrote: Looking at the photo of the header, you'll see the upright key is sized to locate a 3-pin plug onto the correct three header pins.
Are you referring to the red socket? Is the pin socket plug a Standard PWM plug?

Because the rear fan plug is not standard PWM socket plug (see 1st top photo where the PWM fan header locking piece)

Using scythe as an e.g., it looks like the header won't fit in my red socket unless I sand it down. But my problem is, the pin better be the same in regards to +ve, -ve, etc.

But my problem is, the pin better be the same in regards to +ve, -ve, etc.

Image
Last edited by Happy Hopping on Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by cpemma » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:04 am

Happy Hopping wrote:
cpemma wrote: Looking at the photo of the header, you'll see the upright key is sized to locate a 3-pin plug onto the correct three header pins.
Are you referring to the red socket?
The "standard" 0.1" polarised connectors as sold by Futurlec et al have the male's polarising key sized to fit a 4-pin female connector; the 3/4 pin red one shown has a narrower offset key to take either 3 or 4 pin females. Scythe seem to have taken a somewhat unnecessary (but totally idiot-proof) step in having a "special" female made but it should fit the red header without any sanding being necessary.

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Post by Happy Hopping » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:44 pm

But you can see from the photo above your post (the photo is a Scythe PWM fan) that the offset will NOT fit the red socket (Photo 2 of my very first post)

Unless Scythe has a header like photo 1 of my very first post

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Post by maf718 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:37 am

Hi, just a thought, but are you replacing an old fan that fitted that socket? If so you could just swap the plug with your new pwm fan (providing the internal pins are the same size), the wires are usually very easy to unclip from the plug housing. Just take care to observe which colour wire goes where, I changed the fan in a power supply once that had the wires in a non standard order.

If you don't have the old fan, then it would be very easy to shave the plug on the new pwm fan with a sharp knife to make it fit, the plastic is pretty soft. (Much easier than sanding it.) Check to see if the order of the wires needs changing and swap them if necessary.

Hope that helps - I'm new to posting here so don't beat me up if it doesn't!

Edit
As for pin assignments on your red socket, they may be non standard because the connector is a different fit. Use this table to compare regular PWM pin order with yours, either by referring to mobo specs or comparing to a four pin fan that fits like the one in your first picture.

PWM pin allocation and wire colour:

Pin number __________ 1 _________ 2 ________ 3 _________ 4
Function ___________ Ground ____ +12V _____ Sense ____ Control
PWM spec fan _______ Black _____ Yellow ____ Green _____ Blue
Aftermarket PWM fan __ Black ______ Red _____ Yellow ____ Orange

Note that the yellow wire on fans adhering to the PWM specification goes to a different pin than the yellow wire on fans that use a typical black, red, yellow, orange order.

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Post by Happy Hopping » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:08 am

first of all, thanks for the info. My existing fan is using the big hard drive type socket plug (the big one in the above photo w/ the blue color background) so I never have that problem.

The reason I want to buy a fan that uses PWM is

1) to have the computer control the speed for me
2) If I get a 110 CFM front fan, then the computer only need to increase the fan speed to max. during game play, and the rest of the time, it would be silent. Obviously w/o PWM, it can't be done

The above diagram is very useful. Based on the above diagram, if I plug in a Sycthe pwm fan to my motherboard, it won't work.

Where did you get that diagram? I spent many hr. on the internet and I can't find the wiring config. diagarm

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Post by cpemma » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:39 am

Happy Hopping wrote:...if I plug in a Sycthe pwm fan to my motherboard, it won't work.
We have a situation where either Scythe, your motherboard's designer, or you have made an error.

I doubt Scythe or a motherboard designer would release such basically incompatible products with no furore, so, logically, your spatial awareness is at fault. :shock:

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Post by blackworx » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:46 am

If I get a 110 CFM front fan, then the computer only need to increase the fan speed to max. during game play, and the rest of the time, it would be silent. Obviously w/o PWM, it can't be done
You don't need a 4-pin fan to be able to control its speed. Any 3-pin fan can be controlled either by voltage or motherboard PWM (NB: this is different from the on-fan PWM you get with 4-pin fans). The level of control available to you depends very much on your motherboard. For example, Abit's IP35-Pro has six fan headers - 1 x 4-pin and 5 x 3-pin - and every one of them is controllable.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm 99% sure that 4-pin headers are provided for the CPU fan only. So, in order to have a 4-pin fan as your front intake, you would have to hook it up to the CPUFAN header on your mobo.
The above diagram is very useful. Based on the above diagram, if I plug in a Sycthe pwm fan to my motherboard, it won't work.
I think you've misinterpreted. As long as your fan was made for a PC (which is true of the Scythe you're talking about) both types of fan will always work with both types of header - 3-pin and 4-pin. It's just the wiring colours which may vary, although in practise what this really means is that you almost never see the second ("PWM Spec") colours from maf718's diagram. The wiring colours used in 4-pin PWM fans are almost invariably the same as 3-pin fans, but with an extra orange wire. This makes their backwards compatibility with 3-pin headers easier to visually confirm.

Finally: are you sure you need a 110CFM front intake? It's a bit excessive, plus a fan of that spec will not be quiet even when reduced to a lower voltage. Accepted wisdom around here is that front intakes have little bearing on temps unless you are using them for a specific purpose, like directing airflow over a passive GPU heatsink such as an A/C Accelero.

maf718
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Post by maf718 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:10 am

Happy Hopping wrote: The above diagram is very useful. Based on the above diagram, if I plug in a Sycthe pwm fan to my motherboard, it won't work.

Where did you get that diagram? I spent many hr. on the internet and I can't find the wiring config. diagarm
The info is here http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5C ... M_Spec.pdf , page 19 I think, and I added the black, red, yellow, orange line for cross reference to most PWM fans you can buy. As blackworx points out, they use these colours to be backwards compatible, but heatsinks often come with attatched fans using the black, yellow, green, blue wiring colours.

I have heard of a large computer seller using bespoke PWM sockets on some of their mobos, presumably so they can charge megabucks to change the fan. If you know the pin assignments on the motherboard (it sounds like you do) you can easily change the wire order on the Scythe PWM fan to make it fit.

@blackworx: Four pin headers are not for CPU fan only, many (most?) motherboards now come with four pin headers for PWM case fans. Some of these can also control the speed of three pin fans but not all I believe. There were some gigabyte mobo owners complaining about this for example. Maybe they are trying to gradually phase out the traditional three pin header?

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Post by kittle » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:25 am

If the fan plug isnt already in use - verify with your motherboard manual what its actually there for.

From previous posts, i can see you have a workstation/server class system and probably a motherboard to match. These boards usually have an 'overheat fan' plug on the motherboard that wont turn on until the bios things temps are too high. So if your plugging your 4pin fan connector into such a slot and its not powering up when you turn on the system -- this makes sense.

Also - if the pins are in the correct order, there is nothing stopping you from forcing the 4pin fan connector into the plug on your motherboard.

You can also skip the hassle of using the plug on your motherboard and get a small fan controller and use the molex plug like your origional fan was.

Lots of options :)

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Post by cpemma » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:28 am

maf718 wrote:@blackworx: Four pin headers are not for CPU fan only, many (most?) motherboards now come with four pin headers for PWM case fans. Some of these can also control the speed of three pin fans but not all I believe. There were some gigabyte mobo owners complaining about this for example. Maybe they are trying to gradually phase out the traditional three pin header?
ICH9 datasheet wrote:The ICH9 integrates four fan speed sensors (four TACH signals) and 3 fan speed controllers (three Pulse Width Modulator signals), which enables monitoring and controlling up to four fans on the system.
The ICH9 is usual on Intel P35 boards, so no longer cutting edge - the latest chipsets should be at least as capable. However, few motherboards take full advantage of the capabilities, partly to save a few cents on electronics, but mainly to distinguish the flagship models from the cheaper ones and justify the many dollars premium. :evil:

I've two 4-pin headers on my GA-P35-DS3L (along with two 3-pin) but only the CPU header is PWM-controllable from BIOS.

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Post by Happy Hopping » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:49 pm

blackworx wrote: I think you've misinterpreted. As long as your fan was made for a PC (which is true of the Scythe you're talking about) both types of fan will always work with both types of header - 3-pin and 4-pin. It's just the wiring colours which may vary, although in practise what this really means is that you almost never see the second ("PWM Spec") colours from maf718's diagram. The wiring colours used in 4-pin PWM fans are almost invariably the same as 3-pin fans, but with an extra orange wire. This makes their backwards compatibility with 3-pin headers easier to visually confirm.
Okay, I now understand. I was confused by that diagram. So let me re-cap:

Regardless of what color the wire is,

Pin 1 is always Ground
Pin 2 is always +12V
Pin 3 is always Sense
pin 4 is always Control

Well then, out of interest, why on earth did they make the "offset" different? Sycthe is on Pin 3, the NAT is on the edge
plus a fan of that spec will not be quiet even when reduced to a lower voltage. Accepted wisdom around here is that front intakes have little bearing on temps unless you are using them for a specific purpose, like directing airflow over a passive GPU heatsink such as an A/C Accelero.
Why? As I am counting on during non-game usage, that the fan would be quiet. It's a variable speed fan, so at low speed, it should be silent. Why do you say it's not quiet at lower voltage?

As to the fan, I assume I need a 110 cfm as my rear sys. fan is a powerful 130 cfm, 3600 rpm 50 db fan that c/w the sys. from HP (i.e., I didn't put that fan there) Because I would imagine HP engineer is saying the XW9300 must have such a powerful fan

Now, I can get a scythe Kama 12 cm, that c/w 52.71 CFM, 24.890 dB, but I figure the CoolJAG is 110cfm, and the dB is only 39 at max., at non-game, it would be about 24 dB or so, thus, I won't be able to hear anything. So I figure, why not.

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Post by Happy Hopping » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:50 pm

cpemma wrote: We have a situation where either Scythe, your motherboard's designer, or you have made an error.

I doubt Scythe or a motherboard designer would release such basically incompatible products with no furore, so, logically, your spatial awareness is at fault. :shock:
I was confused by the above pin diagram, I now understand what's happening

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Post by Happy Hopping » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:00 pm

kittle wrote: You can also skip the hassle of using the plug on your motherboard and get a small fan controller and use the molex plug like your origional fan was.

Lots of options :)
there is no bay left for fan controller, so if I use a molex, I would get a non PWM fan at silent speed, I am thinking of the scythe slipstream, most likely the 68.54 CFM that is 24 dB

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Post by blackworx » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:58 am

Happy Hopping wrote:Well then, out of interest, why on earth did they make the "offset" different?
Afaik, standard 0.1" pitch connector housings of this type have the mating keys on the edges (like the one in your first pic) no matter what size they are - they are available up to 20-pin. Presumably these housings with offset keys have been introduced to help reduce errors when attaching 3-pin fans to 4-pin headers and vice versa.

What you could certainly do is get hold of a standard 4-pin housing and swap out the leads from your chosen PWM fan. The connectors themselves are very easy to disassemble - further info here.
plus a fan of that spec will not be quiet even when reduced to a lower voltage. Accepted wisdom around here is that front intakes have little bearing on temps unless you are using them for a specific purpose, like directing airflow over a passive GPU heatsink such as an A/C Accelero.
Why? As I am counting on during non-game usage, that the fan would be quiet. It's a variable speed fan, so at low speed, it should be silent. Why do you say it's not quiet at lower voltage?

As to the fan, I assume I need a 110 cfm as my rear sys. fan is a powerful 130 cfm, 3600 rpm 50 db fan that c/w the sys. from HP (i.e., I didn't put that fan there) Because I would imagine HP engineer is saying the XW9300 must have such a powerful fan
As ever, 'quiet' is a relative term. Since your box has a 130cfm exhaust you are entirely correct - an undervolted 110cfm intake will probably be inaudible. The only thing is, it is unlikely to give any worthwhile cooling benefit - even at full speed - because theoretically almost the same volume of air will be moving through the case regardless of whether or not you have an intake fan. But, as I say, if there is a piece of hardware that needs some airflow help then the lack of overall cooling benefit is not really a consideration.
MikeC wrote:I've experimented lots with 120mm intake fans and have come to the conclusion that they are almost always overkill. The front intake fan rarely aids much in actual cooling, and is mostly useful for cooling the HDD(s).
Happy Hopping wrote:Now, I can get a scythe Kama 12 cm, that c/w 52.71 CFM, 24.890 dB, but I figure the CoolJAG is 110cfm, and the dB is only 39 at max., at non-game, it would be about 24 dB or so, thus, I won't be able to hear anything. So I figure, why not.
Of course - it can't hurt to try. It certainly won't hinder your cooling anyway :)

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Post by maf718 » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:17 am

Happy Hopping wrote: So let me re-cap:

Regardless of what color the wire is,

Pin 1 is always Ground
Pin 2 is always +12V
Pin 3 is always Sense
pin 4 is always Control

Well then, out of interest, why on earth did they make the "offset" different? Sycthe is on Pin 3, the NAT is on the edge
The plug on the Scythe fan is the standard design, (edit, to be clear it is the standard PWM design) therefore the pins are as above. The header on your motherboard is not the standard design. This could be for many reasons, but one possible reason is to stop people connecting ordinary fans. Where I have encountered non-standard fan headers before (in a power supply) the pin order was also non-standard. Please be certain of the pin order on your board before plugging a PWM fan into it.

I might have been repeating myself there, but I wasn't sure you took all of the meaning from my previous post.

To be honest you might be best going for less hassle and using the slipstream and molex option mentioned in a post above. You certainly do not need 110cfm at the front.

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Post by blackworx » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:35 am

maf718 wrote:The plug on the Scythe fan is the standard design, (edit, to be clear it is the standard PWM design) therefore the pins are as above. The header on your motherboard is not the standard design. This could be for many reasons, but one possible reason is to stop people connecting ordinary fans. Where I have encountered non-standard fan headers before (in a power supply) the pin order was also non-standard. Please be certain of the pin order on your board before plugging a PWM fan into it.
Looking at the very first pic - which is presumably a picture of the connector for Happy Hopping's system's exhaust fan - the wiring appears to adhere to the PWM spec colour coding. My guess would be that the header is in fact PWM, but as you say it would be wise to make sure.

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Post by maf718 » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:28 am

I agree, but the one thing you cannot tell from that picture is which wire goes to which pin, and Happy Hopping hasn't confirmed (or denied) they are in the standard order.

Here is a link to a thread where a guy is having issues with different pin order on non-standard PWM headers from a certain large computer supplier: http://forums11.itrc.hp.com/service/for ... Id=1098647

If the pin order is different, you can change the pin order on a standard PWM fan very easily, by unclipping the wires from the plug and using the fan in the first picture as a reference point.

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Post by Happy Hopping » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:31 pm

maf718 wrote: The plug on the Scythe fan is the standard design, (edit, to be clear it is the standard PWM design) therefore the pins are as above. The header on your motherboard is not the standard design. This could be for many reasons, but one possible reason is to stop people connecting ordinary fans. Where I have encountered non-standard fan headers before (in a power supply) the pin order was also non-standard. Please be certain of the pin order on your board before plugging a PWM fan into it.

I might have been repeating myself there, but I wasn't sure you took all of the meaning from my previous post.

To be honest you might be best going for less hassle and using the slipstream and molex option mentioned in a post above. You certainly do not need 110cfm at the front.
those are exactly my concern.

1) HP won't tell me what pin is inside, because they want to sell me their fan. You can buy a used AMD OPertron CPU for the price of their fan.

2) And like you said, I don't think I really need 110 cfm at the front neither, so a Scythe slipstream at 24 dB, 68.54 cfm should do it.

And I hope that w/ all the noise in the existing computer, I can't hear 24 DB. Although at the local place I'll pick it up from, they allow me to hear the noise first on the 24 DB.

WIthout knowing which pin is which inside the HP, it's too much hassle.

I appreciate all the help from all of you guys. Scythe it is then

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Update

Post by Happy Hopping » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:10 pm

Alright, I gave up. I spent 4 hr. today, and about 1 hr. yesterday on these Scythe fans, in the end, I stayed w/ my Nexus 120 mm fan at 38.87 CFM. This is what I done:

I heard the actual noise of the Slipstream 1200 rpm (24 dB), and 1900 rpm (37 dB). Surprisingly, when I walked 2 ft. from the computer, I can't hear the 37dB fan. But that was during the test at the store when that guy connects it to a MB w/o the case.

So I bought both as i can return them later, and try it out at my case. Turns out the 37 dB, 1900 rpm fan is so loud when I connected it, I can hear it across the hall in another room.

So now comes the 1200 rpm, 24 dB slipstream Scythe. It is quiet when I stick my ear next to it in open space (as in holding it in my hand), I can tell it's a bit louder by comparing to the Nexus, but very acceptable.

The whole idea of buying this fan is for front bottom cooling for my case of bringing the cool air in.

But here's the fun part--once the fan is connected to the case, it is much louder. At first, I thought it's vibration noise. So I unscrew the fan screw, and move the fan back and forth at the bottom of the case.

As soon as I move the fan away from the inside wall of my metal case, the noise virtually disappear. But when I move the fan say 1 cm next to the inner wall of the metal case (bottom, front position), I can hear the noise increase significantly.

So it's not vibration noise as the fan hasn't contact the metal casing. My best guess is, because the slipstream has more blade compares to the Nexus, the rotation at 1200 rpm of so many blades pushes the noise in the very thin gap between the inner wall of the case and the fan.

I can't think of any other reason. I have been using the Nexus on this case for just over 1 year. I can't hear the nexus fan's noise. So in the end, I am going to refund these scythe fans and continue to use the nexus.

Originally, I really look forward to a gain of 68.54 CFM vs. my current 38.87 CFM w/ almost the same dB level. But eventhough the fan noise is almost the same of the slipstream vs. the Nexus when I hold the fan in my hand, once it's inside the case, there is such a difference that I can't understand why.

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Re: Update

Post by jhhoffma » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:51 am

Happy Hopping wrote:As soon as I move the fan away from the inside wall of my metal case, the noise virtually disappear. But when I move the fan say 1 cm next to the inner wall of the metal case (bottom, front position), I can hear the noise increase significantly.
That's cavity resonance. You might want to try mass-loading your case panels to prevent them from vibrating sympathetically with your HDDs and fans.
I heard the actual noise of the Slipstream 1200 rpm (24 dB), and 1900 rpm (37 dB). Surprisingly, when I walked 2 ft. from the computer, I can't hear the 37dB fan. But that was during the test at the store when that guy connects it to a MB w/o the case.

So I bought both as i can return them later, and try it out at my case. Turns out the 37 dB, 1900 rpm fan is so loud when I connected it, I can hear it across the hall in another room.
That's the difference with the ambient noise of an office/retail building and your home and now you know why MikeC works so hard to get the quietest environment possible to test equipment in.

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Post by Happy Hopping » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:27 am

I dont' know what cavity resonance is. But I didn't notice that w/ my Nexus, or at least it is not noticeable. Is it the no. of blades? If not, what causes the difference btwn. nexus and scythe?

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