Panaflo L1J?
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
Coincidence 
o Panaflo L1A & L1J are the same, China or Japan
o 1A means 2-wire bare-wire-tails, 1J means 2-wire 2-pin-tails
About signals:
o TACHO SIGNAL - only exists on 1BX option code fans
---- L1BX is not available (I can get it, but you'll wait 26-38wks)
---- L1BX has a different PCB & Motor-IC than 1A & may be noisier
---- yes I've been sampling & testing, 1A still wins out
---- ignore the 1CX option code incidentally
o LOCKED ROTOR SIGNAL - exists generally on anything but 1BX
---- 1A, 1AZ, 1J, 1BS, 1BO, 1AZ are all locked-rotor sensor
You can get a tacho signal off Panaflo, with a little circuit.
However, it is involved and re time I'll pass you to other SPCR members
who have kindly suggested such circuits in the past (some skill needed).
Panaflo Japan
o 80% are free of acoustic artefacts - the highest consistency
Panaflo China
o 50% are equal to the Japan Panaflo
o 20% are actually better than the Japan Panaflo
o 30% are slightly inferior to Japan
All my Panaflo except for the 60mm are Japan, L1A/L1J.
The 60mm have been made in the Panasonic China plant by
their engineers for a decade and so are "very tight" on spec.
Any China fans with any noise are simply a shim under the label/cap,
which sits between the very big fluid-bearing module and a thrust-bearing.
o The fluid-bearing is both radial & axial
o The thrust-bearing is not the main fan bearing, it is "positionary"
---- it exists initially to stop the spring-loaded rotor falling off the fan
---- it also exists operationally to set the rotor to PCB separation
o Between the positionary (thrust) & main (fluid) bearing is a shim
---- that shim is non-round & has a non-round hole to stop rotation
---- on China fans it can sometimes flick round causing a "rustle"
---- about 20-35% of the China fans can have this, around 2-12% of Japan
I select all my fans, since I can put those not quite acoustically perfect
across to industrial buyers at big discounts (£1.89-2.89 typically). It is
not many, as all my fans are Japan which suffer about 2-12%.
The reason the shim does this is due to a change to a harder steel,
when you punch hard steel you create a tiny microscopic lip on one
side. There's enough friction them from that microscopic lip to cause
it to swish on rotation. It does actually goes on most fans, I fry some at
65oC & run them overvolted at 14.2V, repeated stop-start on a little
process control relay (4-sec on/off cycle). However, since the material
is harder steel it takes longer - reason for it? G rating, 60G for Panaflo
versus 40G for EBM-Papst/NMB ball-bearing. A pointless statistic, since
we all know that Panaflo blades are the vulnerable point - superthin.
Occasionally Panaflo can get whacked in shipping, so the rotor moves
in sufficiently to catch the locked-rotor/tacho hall-effect sensors. That
can result in a very obvious clack on rotation, in severe cases you can
find the rotor-blades or housing have been shattered or cracked.
Panaflo are vulnerable to anything falling on their blades - even a knock
can shatter the super-thin phenolic glass-like blades, so just take care.
They are also relatively sharp beasts when rotating, so watch fingers.
For me, since I select fans it doesn't mean much - just affects my product
mix from consumer to industrial buyers. Industrial are still starved, but do
like them for production line process control - nasty temp, dust, vibration.
I do the same with some 80mm EBM-Papst which amusingly would fail at
the 70% level compared to the Japan Panaflo re acoustic noise. That is
really due to ball-bearing = broadband, Panaflo = fluid = narrowband. A
good example of that difference is comparing a ball-bearinng Raptor 36GB
early 10k-rpm HD with the later 74GB fluid-bearing Raptor 10k-HD.
Osaka Japan has no spare production capacity, however you can
specify where your fans come from - re Japan or China. Distributors
just look at the box, I can specify plant & production line also, as well
as a few other things to make my life a bit easier. Comes down to the
sourcing be it distributor elsewhere - re OEM spec or otherwise.
As Panaflo & NMB merge, 3 changes will take place:
o TQM process across Panaflo/NMB will be merged
---- that happened in Jun04, particularly in China plants from Osaka Engineers
---- NMB have the world's tightest consistency, Panaflo Japan identical
o Lead time for that change to reach you is long
---- distributors allow you to specify what you get, others don't
---- it's a price-premium offering costing them nothing (easy money)
o Eventually the name will change
---- that could take 1 or 4 years, if ever since Japan is slow on name change
---- super-fast on mergers, peculiarly political about names re Japan Osaka culture being key as that's where the HQ is /and will remain/
---- a suggested name is M3, could change
There will be no change in product or range - may be a 70mm Panaflo,
may be an FBZ 60mm in S form (about 17cfm & 19dB(A) for example).
Someday may be an FBZ replacinig FBA, but "no plans in 2005". There
will not be a 120x25mm Panaflo fluid bearing (impossible re design),
but eventually there may be access to the NMB 120x25mm B10 at a
decent price. Don't hold your breath was the comment from Osaka.
If you have more than 1 fan, Panaflo China are a good price-point,
if you have a bedroom application - particularly a baby or child, or
you "sleep light" & with a computer on, then Panaflo Japan are best.
I would add, don't sleep with a laser-printer re Ozone emission still
being relatively high and can irritate some people. Personal choice.
Some PCs will eventually support the 1A-etc (non-1BX) option code,
DEC Alpha require it, Apples will soon, and the monitoring chipsets do
plan on supporting it. It's 1) cheaper to implement than tacho (tacho is
a 10-17% price-premium for probably 0.001% change in cost), and 2)
it allows soft-edging of motor-ic control for extra low motor noise. Some
may recall the 92L1A is quieter/smoother than the 92L1BX which went
thro some changes and I held off until the 1BX chipset gets a bit better.
Most of the changes re China fans will filter thro "soon", it was a passing
implementation change - the actual people/plant/engineers are the same.
The Japan plant is still the HQ, R&D-HQ & Production HQ - some motors
come from elsewhere in Japan (eg, 120mm) mainly re physical capacity.
Quick typed, hope it's clearer now
o Panaflo L1A & L1J are the same, China or Japan
o 1A means 2-wire bare-wire-tails, 1J means 2-wire 2-pin-tails
About signals:
o TACHO SIGNAL - only exists on 1BX option code fans
---- L1BX is not available (I can get it, but you'll wait 26-38wks)
---- L1BX has a different PCB & Motor-IC than 1A & may be noisier
---- yes I've been sampling & testing, 1A still wins out
---- ignore the 1CX option code incidentally
o LOCKED ROTOR SIGNAL - exists generally on anything but 1BX
---- 1A, 1AZ, 1J, 1BS, 1BO, 1AZ are all locked-rotor sensor
You can get a tacho signal off Panaflo, with a little circuit.
However, it is involved and re time I'll pass you to other SPCR members
who have kindly suggested such circuits in the past (some skill needed).
Panaflo Japan
o 80% are free of acoustic artefacts - the highest consistency
Panaflo China
o 50% are equal to the Japan Panaflo
o 20% are actually better than the Japan Panaflo
o 30% are slightly inferior to Japan
All my Panaflo except for the 60mm are Japan, L1A/L1J.
The 60mm have been made in the Panasonic China plant by
their engineers for a decade and so are "very tight" on spec.
Any China fans with any noise are simply a shim under the label/cap,
which sits between the very big fluid-bearing module and a thrust-bearing.
o The fluid-bearing is both radial & axial
o The thrust-bearing is not the main fan bearing, it is "positionary"
---- it exists initially to stop the spring-loaded rotor falling off the fan
---- it also exists operationally to set the rotor to PCB separation
o Between the positionary (thrust) & main (fluid) bearing is a shim
---- that shim is non-round & has a non-round hole to stop rotation
---- on China fans it can sometimes flick round causing a "rustle"
---- about 20-35% of the China fans can have this, around 2-12% of Japan
I select all my fans, since I can put those not quite acoustically perfect
across to industrial buyers at big discounts (£1.89-2.89 typically). It is
not many, as all my fans are Japan which suffer about 2-12%.
The reason the shim does this is due to a change to a harder steel,
when you punch hard steel you create a tiny microscopic lip on one
side. There's enough friction them from that microscopic lip to cause
it to swish on rotation. It does actually goes on most fans, I fry some at
65oC & run them overvolted at 14.2V, repeated stop-start on a little
process control relay (4-sec on/off cycle). However, since the material
is harder steel it takes longer - reason for it? G rating, 60G for Panaflo
versus 40G for EBM-Papst/NMB ball-bearing. A pointless statistic, since
we all know that Panaflo blades are the vulnerable point - superthin.
Occasionally Panaflo can get whacked in shipping, so the rotor moves
in sufficiently to catch the locked-rotor/tacho hall-effect sensors. That
can result in a very obvious clack on rotation, in severe cases you can
find the rotor-blades or housing have been shattered or cracked.
Panaflo are vulnerable to anything falling on their blades - even a knock
can shatter the super-thin phenolic glass-like blades, so just take care.
They are also relatively sharp beasts when rotating, so watch fingers.
For me, since I select fans it doesn't mean much - just affects my product
mix from consumer to industrial buyers. Industrial are still starved, but do
like them for production line process control - nasty temp, dust, vibration.
I do the same with some 80mm EBM-Papst which amusingly would fail at
the 70% level compared to the Japan Panaflo re acoustic noise. That is
really due to ball-bearing = broadband, Panaflo = fluid = narrowband. A
good example of that difference is comparing a ball-bearinng Raptor 36GB
early 10k-rpm HD with the later 74GB fluid-bearing Raptor 10k-HD.
Osaka Japan has no spare production capacity, however you can
specify where your fans come from - re Japan or China. Distributors
just look at the box, I can specify plant & production line also, as well
as a few other things to make my life a bit easier. Comes down to the
sourcing be it distributor elsewhere - re OEM spec or otherwise.
As Panaflo & NMB merge, 3 changes will take place:
o TQM process across Panaflo/NMB will be merged
---- that happened in Jun04, particularly in China plants from Osaka Engineers
---- NMB have the world's tightest consistency, Panaflo Japan identical
o Lead time for that change to reach you is long
---- distributors allow you to specify what you get, others don't
---- it's a price-premium offering costing them nothing (easy money)
o Eventually the name will change
---- that could take 1 or 4 years, if ever since Japan is slow on name change
---- super-fast on mergers, peculiarly political about names re Japan Osaka culture being key as that's where the HQ is /and will remain/
---- a suggested name is M3, could change
There will be no change in product or range - may be a 70mm Panaflo,
may be an FBZ 60mm in S form (about 17cfm & 19dB(A) for example).
Someday may be an FBZ replacinig FBA, but "no plans in 2005". There
will not be a 120x25mm Panaflo fluid bearing (impossible re design),
but eventually there may be access to the NMB 120x25mm B10 at a
decent price. Don't hold your breath was the comment from Osaka.
If you have more than 1 fan, Panaflo China are a good price-point,
if you have a bedroom application - particularly a baby or child, or
you "sleep light" & with a computer on, then Panaflo Japan are best.
I would add, don't sleep with a laser-printer re Ozone emission still
being relatively high and can irritate some people. Personal choice.
Some PCs will eventually support the 1A-etc (non-1BX) option code,
DEC Alpha require it, Apples will soon, and the monitoring chipsets do
plan on supporting it. It's 1) cheaper to implement than tacho (tacho is
a 10-17% price-premium for probably 0.001% change in cost), and 2)
it allows soft-edging of motor-ic control for extra low motor noise. Some
may recall the 92L1A is quieter/smoother than the 92L1BX which went
thro some changes and I held off until the 1BX chipset gets a bit better.
Most of the changes re China fans will filter thro "soon", it was a passing
implementation change - the actual people/plant/engineers are the same.
The Japan plant is still the HQ, R&D-HQ & Production HQ - some motors
come from elsewhere in Japan (eg, 120mm) mainly re physical capacity.
Quick typed, hope it's clearer now
Not in factory crates they don't.
o L1A come with 2-wire bare tails
---- more specifically red/black solid-core with bare tinned ends
o L1J come with 2-wire 2-pin connector
---- more specifically red/blue stranded with 2-pin connectors
There is no code for 4-pin Molex incidentally.
1BX is 3-wire (red/black/yellow) solid-core bare tinned ends.
o L1A come with 2-wire bare tails
---- more specifically red/black solid-core with bare tinned ends
o L1J come with 2-wire 2-pin connector
---- more specifically red/blue stranded with 2-pin connectors
There is no code for 4-pin Molex incidentally.
1BX is 3-wire (red/black/yellow) solid-core bare tinned ends.
That is how the fans come out of the crate.
Panaflo codes follow the form "FB-A-08A-12-L-1AX"
o FB (Fan Type)
---- FB - Panaflo Tubeaxial Fan
o A (Bearing Type)
---- A = Hydrowave Fluid Bearing
---- K = Ball-Bearing (NMB I believe)
---- E = Pivot Bearing (cheaper form of fluid bearing)
---- X = big ball bearing (non-NMB ball bearing I believe)
o 08A (Fan Depth)
---- 08A = 25.5mm
---- T = 15mm
---- G = 38mm
---- F = 20mm
---- L = 51mm
---- M = 63mm
---- N = 65mm
o 12 (Voltage)
---- 12 = 12V, 5 = 5V, 24 = 24V, 48 = 48V
---- seems to be an discontinuity here re the AC fans, but OEM mainly
o L (Noise)
---- L = Low
---- M = Medium
---- H = High
---- U = Ultra High
---- V = Variable
---- other OEM codes
---- S = Sub-Low in noise level, eg, forthcoming FBZ 60mm fan
o 1AX (3-part Terminal / Lead / Option Code)
---- Terminal - 1 = with leads, Blank = without leads
---- Leads ---- A = 2-wire, B = 3-wire, C = thermal sensor leads, J = 2-wire with Amphenol connector
---- Option --- S = locked-rotor alarm sensor, Z = solid-corner housing, X = Tacho output,
--------------- O = locked-rotor & solid-corner housing, 1 = hub thermal sensor (ie, thermistor like some NMB, EBM use a flying thermistor sensor)
This is not a perfect guide:
o OEM specs can have different codes
---- like J noted above -- connector fitted, stranded-wire (red/blue) not solid-core (red/black)
o OEM specs can have codes dropped
---- like omitted S -- 1A & 1AS are generally the same (S, locked-rotor, is generally present)
---- like omitted 1A or 1B -- where X may simply be used to designate 1AX
OEM spec fans can have radically different options & wiring.
o EBM-Papst - purple wires = temp thermistor sensor
o EBM-Papst - dashed-colour wires = don't touch
o EBM-Papst - /2 means tacho output, codes of /3, /14, /9 also exist
o NMB - White = sensor signal
---- tacho if B number ends in a 9 AND the A number is >A50 & <A99
---- tacho is signalled by two codes, not just 1 like on Panaflo
o Panaflo - OEM codes exist breaking the above guidelines
---- some are distributor specific (1J), others OEM-orderable-by-distributor (1J)
---- some are OEM-orderable-only-via-factory (V spec models, 1-blank-blank)
Distributors fulfill OEM orders on a quota basis:
o You want 89,000 of a particular spec
o They order 100,000 of that spec re qty-pricing-break-point
o They offer 11,000 elsewhere (or more if full qty not taken up)
NMB are more typical of this - they have a vast OEM side where they make
200,000 fans per year (55% of world market), mostly to OEM build-to-order.
Panaflo also do it, but are for more luxo consumer/office-automation end,
where the product mix benefits from the quieter bearing & long life option.
Tails are typically 26AWG
o Fan side connector (not applicable to 15mm "T" models)
---- Amphenol 173981-3
o Fan side tail harness
---- Amphenol 173977-3 or 175778-3 with 175102-2
Panaflo OEM side is still quite large, as shown by sizes available:
o 25x10, 25x15
o 30x10, 30x13
o 40x20
o 45x15
o 60x15, 60x25
o 70x25
o 80x15, 80x25
o 92x25, 92x32, 92x38
o 102x32, 102x38
o 113x32
o 120x32, 120x38
o 125x38
o 140x51
o 160x63 (also available in AC)
o 180x65 (also available in AC)
Eventually the FBA may be replaced by the FBZ:
o FBZ = Alliance Series fan
o So far planned for 60mm only re extra low noise
o Currently world's best performing fan design
o New motor design which is smaller
---- usefully a hub more like non-fluid-bearing fans
---- eg, note the huge size of a 120mm fan hub
o Large 20% jump in airflow over all fan designs
---- and a 10% drop in noise level over original FBA
o Eg, FBZ06A12S = 13.1cfm, 19dB(A) - huge drop in noise
o Eg, FBA06A12L = 14.1cfm, 24dB(A)
The FBZ is behind schedule AFAIK, the merger with NMB to create
a super-fan/whisper-motor/whisper-HVAC/automobile-motor company
taking precedence. Hence Papst renamed themselves to EBM-Papst,
instead of the Industrial (EBM) & Consumer (Papst) brand split.
I'm not sure how far this fans-into-motor expands:
o Panaflo now have a vast laptop thermal solution area
o Many current laptops use Panaflo solutions re noise/blade/heatsink
o Motor area on cars ranges from macro cooling (engine) to seats to Hard-Drives
o NMB who co-own the fluid-bearing patent with Panaflo on generation #6 I think
---- that is designated for higher-rpm 2.5" units, beyond 10,000rpm (Savvio)
There will be more motors in the world going forward.
One risk is we go more OEM - custom fan specs & wiring & interlinking the
fan to the main-board (move some fan chipset functionality to the board).
That is a recipe for proprietarisation for the sake of it - irritating as
many a Dell owner finds re pricey drive-rails, PSUs and similar items.
Apple even do it - reversing the polarity in 2-pin fan connectors
No 70x15mm fan possible, have asked - a bit late as a solution now tho.
Most of the unusual fan sizes are OEM/Integration only - good in some
ways in that a 70x25mm in a projector would be good re noise/cooling,
but bad in that the availability of replacement may be from the maker.
The FBZ S model is likely to be OEM only - most probably projectors,
probably as the engineers got fed up listening to some themselves
Best wishes.
Panaflo codes follow the form "FB-A-08A-12-L-1AX"
o FB (Fan Type)
---- FB - Panaflo Tubeaxial Fan
o A (Bearing Type)
---- A = Hydrowave Fluid Bearing
---- K = Ball-Bearing (NMB I believe)
---- E = Pivot Bearing (cheaper form of fluid bearing)
---- X = big ball bearing (non-NMB ball bearing I believe)
o 08A (Fan Depth)
---- 08A = 25.5mm
---- T = 15mm
---- G = 38mm
---- F = 20mm
---- L = 51mm
---- M = 63mm
---- N = 65mm
o 12 (Voltage)
---- 12 = 12V, 5 = 5V, 24 = 24V, 48 = 48V
---- seems to be an discontinuity here re the AC fans, but OEM mainly
o L (Noise)
---- L = Low
---- M = Medium
---- H = High
---- U = Ultra High
---- V = Variable
---- other OEM codes
---- S = Sub-Low in noise level, eg, forthcoming FBZ 60mm fan
o 1AX (3-part Terminal / Lead / Option Code)
---- Terminal - 1 = with leads, Blank = without leads
---- Leads ---- A = 2-wire, B = 3-wire, C = thermal sensor leads, J = 2-wire with Amphenol connector
---- Option --- S = locked-rotor alarm sensor, Z = solid-corner housing, X = Tacho output,
--------------- O = locked-rotor & solid-corner housing, 1 = hub thermal sensor (ie, thermistor like some NMB, EBM use a flying thermistor sensor)
This is not a perfect guide:
o OEM specs can have different codes
---- like J noted above -- connector fitted, stranded-wire (red/blue) not solid-core (red/black)
o OEM specs can have codes dropped
---- like omitted S -- 1A & 1AS are generally the same (S, locked-rotor, is generally present)
---- like omitted 1A or 1B -- where X may simply be used to designate 1AX
OEM spec fans can have radically different options & wiring.
o EBM-Papst - purple wires = temp thermistor sensor
o EBM-Papst - dashed-colour wires = don't touch
o EBM-Papst - /2 means tacho output, codes of /3, /14, /9 also exist
o NMB - White = sensor signal
---- tacho if B number ends in a 9 AND the A number is >A50 & <A99
---- tacho is signalled by two codes, not just 1 like on Panaflo
o Panaflo - OEM codes exist breaking the above guidelines
---- some are distributor specific (1J), others OEM-orderable-by-distributor (1J)
---- some are OEM-orderable-only-via-factory (V spec models, 1-blank-blank)
Distributors fulfill OEM orders on a quota basis:
o You want 89,000 of a particular spec
o They order 100,000 of that spec re qty-pricing-break-point
o They offer 11,000 elsewhere (or more if full qty not taken up)
NMB are more typical of this - they have a vast OEM side where they make
200,000 fans per year (55% of world market), mostly to OEM build-to-order.
Panaflo also do it, but are for more luxo consumer/office-automation end,
where the product mix benefits from the quieter bearing & long life option.
Tails are typically 26AWG
o Fan side connector (not applicable to 15mm "T" models)
---- Amphenol 173981-3
o Fan side tail harness
---- Amphenol 173977-3 or 175778-3 with 175102-2
Panaflo OEM side is still quite large, as shown by sizes available:
o 25x10, 25x15
o 30x10, 30x13
o 40x20
o 45x15
o 60x15, 60x25
o 70x25
o 80x15, 80x25
o 92x25, 92x32, 92x38
o 102x32, 102x38
o 113x32
o 120x32, 120x38
o 125x38
o 140x51
o 160x63 (also available in AC)
o 180x65 (also available in AC)
Eventually the FBA may be replaced by the FBZ:
o FBZ = Alliance Series fan
o So far planned for 60mm only re extra low noise
o Currently world's best performing fan design
o New motor design which is smaller
---- usefully a hub more like non-fluid-bearing fans
---- eg, note the huge size of a 120mm fan hub
o Large 20% jump in airflow over all fan designs
---- and a 10% drop in noise level over original FBA
o Eg, FBZ06A12S = 13.1cfm, 19dB(A) - huge drop in noise
o Eg, FBA06A12L = 14.1cfm, 24dB(A)
The FBZ is behind schedule AFAIK, the merger with NMB to create
a super-fan/whisper-motor/whisper-HVAC/automobile-motor company
taking precedence. Hence Papst renamed themselves to EBM-Papst,
instead of the Industrial (EBM) & Consumer (Papst) brand split.
I'm not sure how far this fans-into-motor expands:
o Panaflo now have a vast laptop thermal solution area
o Many current laptops use Panaflo solutions re noise/blade/heatsink
o Motor area on cars ranges from macro cooling (engine) to seats to Hard-Drives
o NMB who co-own the fluid-bearing patent with Panaflo on generation #6 I think
---- that is designated for higher-rpm 2.5" units, beyond 10,000rpm (Savvio)
There will be more motors in the world going forward.
One risk is we go more OEM - custom fan specs & wiring & interlinking the
fan to the main-board (move some fan chipset functionality to the board).
That is a recipe for proprietarisation for the sake of it - irritating as
many a Dell owner finds re pricey drive-rails, PSUs and similar items.
Apple even do it - reversing the polarity in 2-pin fan connectors
No 70x15mm fan possible, have asked - a bit late as a solution now tho.
Most of the unusual fan sizes are OEM/Integration only - good in some
ways in that a 70x25mm in a projector would be good re noise/cooling,
but bad in that the availability of replacement may be from the maker.
The FBZ S model is likely to be OEM only - most probably projectors,
probably as the engineers got fed up listening to some themselves
Best wishes.
-
martinreed22
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 9:31 am
- Location: UK
-
acaurora
- *Lifetime Patron*
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:51 am
- Location: Elk Grove, CA
- Contact:
I ordered a Japanflo from Jab-tech.com, and the sticker reads as follows:1A means 2-wire bare-wire-tails, 1J means 2-wire 2-pin-tails
0K20AN-1J
MODEL FBA08A12L
DC12V 0.1A
It comes with a 3 pin fan tail with the 3 pin connector, with the red-black-yellow wires. However, upon connecting to my DFI LanParty Ultra II B, MBM5 couldn't read any tach.
I don't know if this helps anyone, but just wanted to get that out.