My New AMD 64 DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) [2nd Phase]

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NamJangNamJa
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My New AMD 64 DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) [2nd Phase]

Post by NamJangNamJa » Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:10 am

[Edit: New plan posted on the second page]

Hello everybody, I hope you all enjoying the end of year.

I am trying to build a quiet Digital Audio Workstation(DAW). Here is the plan:


CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Winchester (90nm)
The reason that I chose this CPU is that it is 90nm and it allow less heat than the comparable CPUs from Intel. The problem of this CPU is the price. The price was about $280 about a couple of weeks ago. But now, it is about $340! I have been a royal customer to AMD for a few years. I made my friend buy AMD for their computers. And I somehow feel like I am backstabbed by AMD because I was waiting for a bit of price drop around the Christmas season, but what happened is that the price sky-rocketed. Maybe I should buy AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Newcastle (130nm) or Intel Prescott 3.4 GHz instead and save some money. The biggest merit of the Intel CPU is there are plenty of PCI-E motherboards which also supports DDR2 memories. Any suggestions?


CPU Heatsink: Zalman CNPS7700-AlCu
I love Zalman CPU Heatsinks. They comes with a fan, a fan controller and a good manual at a reasonable price. Also, Zalman water-cooling solution looks very interesting to me even though the price is way too high. Well, I might be moving more than twice in a few years, so I will stick to 7700.


Motherboard: Asus A8V Deluxe
I chose this motherboard because it doesn't have any fan. However I would rather buy MSI Neo2 Platinum with the nForce3 Ultra chipset or any motherboard with nForce4/PCI-E, if I can silence it without any danger of damaging the motherboard.


Video Card: Sapphire Atlantis Radeon 9600 256MB
I am a huge fan of Half-Life 1. So I will buy Half-Life 2. I guess I need more juice than just plain 9600 to play Half-Life 2 on my 1600x1200 display, but I couldn't find any current passive 9600 Pro or better. Maybe I should buy better one such as 9800 or X700 then zalman it.


Case: Antec Sonata
I chose this case because it looks nicer than any other SPCR-recommended cases, and it gives better HDD decoupling than the cases from other brands without any mod or additional parts.

Why should my ears have all the fun? I don't want to give all the fun to my ears, my eyes also deserve some fun. My eyes simply don't like Evercase ECE4252 and Antec SLK series. My eyes prefer my friend's Sonata than my ECE4252. My eyes don't like SLK series, either, because Sonata has much more elegant style.

Fong Kai FK330, Yeong Yang "Mars" YY-5603 and Chenbro Gaming Bomb Xpider are no more available or don't have as good HDD decoupling as Antec. I like the look of Coolermaster Centurion 5 and Temjin TJ06, but I guess Sonata will do better for me because I will be using at least 3 HDDs and Sonata has better HDD decoupling. If I buy Sonata, I will probably apply AcoustiPack. Please, correct me if I am wrong.


Power Supply Unit: Antec Phantom 350W
I was disappointed by the noise level of the fans of Seasonic 300W B3 revision. So, I am trying to stay away from any PSU with fans. The stock PSU of Sonata will be replaced with Phantom 350. I am worried about the heat and the 350W capacity. Although I guess this Phantom will hold 3 HDDs and 2 Optical drives in addition to a CPU and a Video card, 350W doesn't look enough for today's workstation.


HDDs: Seagate 7200.8 NCQ SATA and Samsung PATA
I will buy two Seagate 7200.8s for now, so I can RAID them for my audio recording. I currently own a couple of Samsung HDDs.


Optical Drives: Sony DRU-510(?) and Samsung CD-RW
I already have them. Maybe I will buy NEC dual-layer DVD+-RW later.


Fans: Nexus Real Silent Fan
I will buy two of them, and 7Volt them. But my question is how am I going to mount them.



Thanks for reading. I will appreciate any little comments or thoughts.
Last edited by NamJangNamJa on Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:43 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:01 am

NamJangNamJa --

You underestimate the importance of unrestricted vent openings in the case. Good airflow with low fan speeds is the #1 thing of import for a quiet PC case. Everything else is secondary. If you get a case that's great in other ways, then you must modify it for great unrestricted airflow, or none of the other positive attributes will matter. Not if you want low noise and effective cooling.

The Sonata is low on the list for good reasons. In fact, I wonder if it should even be on the recommended list because it is too flawed (yes, I know I make the lists but I am allowed to have doubts about my choices...):
1) stock, its intake airflow is poor
2) the HDD cage, despite the convenience of the sidemount, is not removable, (no room for hdd suspension) and the rubber mounts give minimal damping
3) the intake fan position is poor

There is no way a fanless PSU will stay cool enough in this case -- not without massive modifications. I'd also put money down that the reason you found the Seasonic unsatisfactory is because you ran it in a case that did not have adequate case airflow; the fan thus kept ramping up. (None of the PSU fans in any of my systems ever ramp up.)

The Z7700 is overkill for a Winchester core. The 7000 is definitely quieter and plenty good enough. Or for a quieter option, thermalright XP90 + Nexus 92mm. The XP120 is overkill too, and you'll have mounting problems because of the size.

I'd recommend a slower Winchestoer core and OC if you wish; the slower ones oc better anyway. The thermal advantage is too much to give up: ~30% against clawhammer.

WHatever HDDs, you will never get really quiet without effective mechanical decoupling -- that does mean some kind of damped, soft resilient suspension. There's simply no getting around it -- 2~3 drives will always be your loudest components if normally mounted in a quiet optimized case. 2-3 drives mounted normally will put you at a min noise level of 24~26 dBA/1m at best, with peaks during seek/write jumping up over 30 dBA/1m. The difference / change from idle / active will be very audible.

NamJangNamJa
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Post by NamJangNamJa » Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:12 pm

Thanks MikeC,

I don't know what I have done wrong with my current system. But my Seasonic is the loudest part of my system. I currently have Evercase ECE4252, Seasonic 300W, 7 volted Papst 4412FGL, 7 volted Panaflo FBA08A12L for front intake, EAR grommets, Zalman 6000Cu with AMD 2000+.

I might be doing something wrong and stupid. Does the motherboard control the speed of fan in the PSU? The only connection between PSU and my motherboard is through ATX20Pin Power Connector, and I feel like I am missing something. I am wondering what this 3 pin cable with blue and black do.

----------

Anyways, I decided to buy Zalman CNPS7000 or XP90+nexus instead 7700 and Seasonic Super Tornado or Silencer 400W instead of Antec Phantom. Thanks, MikeC. You are awesome.

The remaining question is what case I should buy and how I am going to suspend my HDDs. I am looking at both Coolermaster Centurion 6 and Temjin TJ06. Are they better than the Antec cases? I think I can manage to suspend some HDDs in internal 3.5" bays in those cases and suspend some HDDs in 5.25" bays using NoVibesIII. What do you guys think?

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Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:50 pm

NamJangNamJa wrote:Thanks MikeC,

I don't know what I have done wrong with my current system. But my Seasonic is the loudest part of my system.

----------

The remaining question is what case I should buy and how I am going to suspend my HDDs. I am looking at both Coolermaster Centurion 6 and Temjin TJ06. Are they better than the Antec cases? I think I can manage to suspend some HDDs in internal 3.5" bays in those cases and suspend some HDDs in 5.25" bays using NoVibesIII. What do you guys think?
You're welcome. :)

Which Seasonic is it? Do you know whether it is a Rev A3? If it is a 80mm fan version, have you considered trying a PSu fresh air intake duct via the front top CD drive bay? See stickies in PSU forum on this.

The CM C6 and Silverstone TJ06 are both sturdy and handsome cases, but not without flaws -- both with case airflow. There's a long discussion thread on the TJ06 (under article discussion) that touches on most of the salient issues. With the CMc6, the front intake is the problem and there's no easy fix -- I think that one needs one or more of the external 3.5" or 5.25" bays to be converted into intake vents.

Also, neither allows simple HDD suspension tricks -- unlike the Evercase you have or the Antec SLK3000 (or 3700AMB) -- and I know you don't like the looks of any of these. With the TJ06 or the C6, you need to remove the HDD bay in order gain a useful space for HDD suspension. Do have a look around the main site in storage and in the storage forum for all kinds of suspension ideas.

The NVIII in a 5.25" bay is ok only if you can get some ariflwo around the HDD because suspension always increase HDD temps by at least 5C -- the absence of heat conduction to the case. I use the NVIIIs only when dealing with a single drive -- Velcro mount at bottom front just behind intake fan at low voltage. Or maybe you could mount 2 back to back in a vertical orientation.

You probably have to get into some metal cutting in order to have ideal case intake airflow with 99% of cases. IMO, the best case -- unmodified -- for min airflow restrictions and easy HDD suspension is the YY "Mars". The front bezel is ugly to some but there's always paint...

PS -- the reason my PSU fans never ramp up is because they are all isolated from the heat of the rest of the case and get fresh air from the outside directly. Only time it's ever happened is with room temps >30C and the system on full load for a while.

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Post by NamJangNamJa » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:16 pm

My Seasonic in my current system is SS-300FS Active PFC B3. I guess the B3 of SS-300FS is before the A3 revision of Super series. It is already loud from the time I turn the computer on. Also Zalman 6000Cu in my current system is almost as loud as the PSU, too. Probably they are too old to be quiet. I need to get a SPL meter.

It has been never quiet enough since I thought it is not quiet enough.

Maybe I should buy another ECE4252, it is not a bad look. I wish I can see a real TJ06 and YY Mars, not a picture. I will decide what case to buy after I take a look at SLK3700 one more time at the local store.

Thanks a lot, MikeC. I really appreciate your advices. :)

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Post by Edward Ng » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:30 pm

NamJangNamJa, I didn't even notice you're from NY as well until now.

Winchester is a good choice and so are NewCastle & ClawHammer. I personally don't believe in paying extra for DDR2 (Intel platform), and I definitely suggest avoiding Prescott at ALL COST; for PCI-Ex, just go with a new nForce4 board. The new Chaintech nF4 has no fan on it. :wink:

If you buy a PCI-Ex board, consider a Radeon X700 series board to go with it for HL2. Otherwise, I generally suggest 6600GT.

Case: no Sonata; bad idea. SLK3700-BQE, SLK3000B, SLK2650-BQE or the Evercase, just anything but Sonata considering you plan to run two drives in RAID. The Centurion 5 is a better choice if styling is so important to you, but it will likely, as Mike said, still take more work to get good flow to the drives compared to the Antecs.

350watts is enough to handle two HDD plus a K8 and an X700. The question is if relying on a single case exhaust fan of 120mm will be sufficient; I honestly believe that if you undervolt the CPU and don't overclock the CPU or VPU, you'll be fine, even with a pair of Barracudas.

Opticals: I have a Samsung DVD-ROM and if it's any indication, then the CD-RW should be equally lousy. Sony's drives are now made by Lite-On; if you can find the Lite-On for cheaper, go for it. I find the NEC to be smoother than Lite-On. I find Plextor to be easily superior to everything else in regards to acoustics, but not in cost.

The Nexus fans; cut the corners open with a rotary and use grommets.

-Ed

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Post by Numbers » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:49 pm

The Lite-On burners sound like jet engines these days, while the NECs are near silent. Plextor's quality has gone downhill the past few years, the fact that they're STILL the most expensive is a joke. It's like charging $50,000 for a honda civic.

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Post by Cams » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:50 am

Sounds like a similar system to the one I'm planning, also to be used as a recording studio.

Link to my thread

I'm going for the XP-120 with an AMD64 3500+ because it fits and I know from past experience just how how it can get up in my den - it's in a loft with no insulation and it can be brutally hot.

I didn't know the 3500+ CPUs had increased in price. They're the same at my UK-based retailer as they've been for the past two months or so, although it does include the usual European premium.

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Post by slashdotcomma » Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:10 pm

NamJangNamJa how's the clearance in the ECE4252, can you fit the XP-120 in it, or will there have to modifications to the side vent? Did you get the extra drive cage with the rubber grommets? Last of all, where did you buy the last one? The one's at Newegg aren't bad, but I was hoping I could get the extra drive cage as well. Thanks.

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Post by jtcb » Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:38 pm

I am puzzling too. Should I get a 3500+ winchester or P4 550? I heard lots of people saying amd is good for gaming while p4 is good for multitasking and video editing appliaction. I don't play games. I watch dvd on my computer. I am planning to get a AIW to be able to watch TV. AMD runs cooler than p4. Most newer P4 boards are ddr2 and I already have 1G of ddr1 and don't want to waste those. I don't want PCI-E now becasue it is still high and I don't see much performance gains over agp.

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Post by NamJangNamJa » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:19 pm

Edward Ng:
Oops, I am sorry. I moved to Florida a few months ago.
I agree with the AMD Winchester. And thanks for recommending Chaintech. I have never used Chaintech, so I am a little bit nervous to buy it. But it looks very nice. I just want to know a little more about Chaintech. I didn't know that Sonata is that terrible. I will choose among Antek SLK series, Centurion 5, or Lian-Li cases. Thanks for the input.


Numbers:
Yes, I agree. I have read a lot of reviews for the NEC DVD+/-RWs. NECs look like the current king of DVD+/-RWs.


Cams:
What kind of audio interface card are you going to buy? RME and Creamware make high quality sound cards in Germany. Motu and Digidesign have high-end audio interfaces, too. If you are going to use Cubase/Nuendo mainly, I'd recommend RME because Steinberg and RME is very closely related.


slashdotcomma:
I am sorry, I cannot answer some of your questions. Probably I am not correctly understanding your questions. What I have in my ECE4252 is AMD Athlon XP 2000+ with Zalman 6000, and I have never used Thermalright heatsinks, yet. I bought my ECE4252 at Newegg and the case came with 4 internally available 3.5" bays. Newegg used to ship two cages for the case. The following URL will answer your remaining question.

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=4917

I glued two screws as described in the link. If you are going to glue screws, NEVER tighten the screws tight. Personally, I recommend the original shoulder screws.


jtcb:
I would definitely go for AMD64. There are several reasons. First of all, I heard DDR2 RAM doesn't have not much advantage over DDR1 for now. Second, you already have 1GB RAM. Third, I don't think there is too much difference between current AMD and Intel processors for watching DVD or TV on your computer.


Thanks for all the inputs! I am going to research a little more about cases, and study more about silencing HDDs. I started to consider SLK3000B or 3700BQE as options since Sonata is no more option for me.

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Post by Edward Ng » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:25 pm

Good luck, buddy; take a look here, too if you still need some ideas.

Btw, where in Florida? My dad's opening a restaurant in the coming year in Ocala.

-Ed

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Post by Cams » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:46 am

NamJangNamJa wrote:Cams:
What kind of audio interface card are you going to buy? RME and Creamware make high quality sound cards in Germany. Motu and Digidesign have high-end audio interfaces, too. If you are going to use Cubase/Nuendo mainly, I'd recommend RME because Steinberg and RME is very closely related.
I use a Terratec 24/96 soundcard with a Mindprint Di-Port. The Di-Port is a great bit of kit: it features two XLR/1/4" inputs with very quiet preamps and phantom power and operates as an analogue <> digital converter. The signal is already digital before it hits the soundcard.

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Post by Edward Ng » Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:42 am

Wow, pretty nice; I have an Echo Audio Mia MIDI, which has 1/4" balanced ins and outs for analogue, plus coax digital in/outs. I am planning to build a new HTPC and am looking for a decently affordable card that has balanced XLR analogue outs, though; any ideas?

-Ed

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Post by NamJangNamJa » Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:17 am

Cams wrote:I use a Terratec 24/96 soundcard with a Mindprint Di-Port.
I have heard Terratec, but Terratec is not well-known in the U.S. though. I like the look of DI-Port, and the way it is used. I might need one as a digital DI-box in future.
Edward Ng wrote:I am planning to build a new HTPC and am looking for a decently affordable card that has balanced XLR analogue outs, though; any ideas?
I was going to recommend some Apogee USB products, but I found they costs more than $1,000!!! Anyways, is there specific reason that you are looking for XLR analog outputs? Generally, 1/4" TRS balanced outputs is good enough, because XLRs generally serves microphones. XLR is identical to TRS in audio quality.

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Post by Edward Ng » Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:34 am

The person who I am building for uses balanced XLR inputs on his preamp.

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Post by NamJangNamJa » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:00 am

Edward Ng wrote:The person who I am building for uses balanced XLR inputs on his preamp.
TRS can be easily transformed into XLR, because they are actually the same. Therefore, it doesn't matter much whether the audio interface card has XLR balanced outputs or TRS balanced outputs. Depend on the specification of the preamp, you can use TRS-XLR cables, or Direct boxs(DI box). Just be careful with the level of signal.

As far as I remember:

Mic Level: about -50dB
Professional Line Level: +4dB
Consumer's Line Level: -10dB

[Edit: I would rather directly connect both computer's audio interfaces using TRS without preamp if it is possible.]

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Post by Edward Ng » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:17 am

Thank;s the level is adjustable between -10 and 4 +on my Mia MIDI; this is noted.

It's not to another PC, it's to his HiFi.

-Ed

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Post by NamJangNamJa » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:48 am

I am going to visit the local store to see SLK3700. If I don't hate the look of the case too much, I am going to buy Antec SLK3000 or 3700, even though I don't like the style. The overall quality of Antec cases is too high to ignore. I am going to try to use Antec Phantom, and if it doesn't work well, I will use the Antec PSU in my old P3 machine instead.

Edward Ng:
Be careful with the audio connection. I might be missing something, so read the manuals carefully, and always start with low volume whatever you do with audio signals. By the way, I live right next to Orlando.

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Post by Edward Ng » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:02 am

We always zero the volume. I have reason to believe we know more about audio than even PCs; or at least, my friend does.

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Post by Cams » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:04 am

The Di-Port is a pretty good bit of kit, although why they didn't allow it a sampling rate of 96khz is a bit bewildering. Not that 24-bit/48khz isn't enough, it just seems rather strrange that they didn't go the extra mile.

Just wondering what you use as reference monitors NamJangNamJa/Edward. I've spent a lot of time reading up on homerecording.com where there is a thread about Wharfedale active monitors so I think I'm going to go with those. Up until now I've been using my Soundblaster with creative speakers and it's high time I upgraded. The new system will have proper studio monitors!

The Terratec card was the best value card I could get. It doesn't have much funtionality but what it does have is good quality and all I really need was SPDIF I/O and monitor outs at 24/96.

There are some recordings on my site if anyone cares to have a listen - I play acoustic guitar and sing a bit:

My recordings page

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Post by Edward Ng » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:07 am

Paradigm Studio/20s. I was looking at these Japanese made horn/hybrid studio monitors beforehand (I believe they're made by the professional branch of Technics; might be wrong, it's been a while), but never got to audition them, and when I heard these at Audio Outlet, I couldn't resist. My room wouldn't let a pair of Maggies breathe too well, so I finally settled on these over MMGs.

-Ed

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Post by NamJangNamJa » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:56 am

Just wondering what you use as reference monitors NamJangNamJa/Edward.
I had Yamaha NS10M with Hafler long time ago. I also used to use Tannoy Active Reveal. I didn't like Tannoy because it has too much base-and lower mid. I currently have a pair of Genelec, but I haven't tested them enough because my audio interface went out of order.

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Post by dmce » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:00 pm

Hi folks. Quick question to MikeC re this comment:
The Z7700 is overkill for a Winchester core. The 7000 is definitely quieter and plenty good enough. Or for a quieter option, thermalright XP90 + Nexus 92mm. The XP120 is overkill too, and you'll have mounting problems because of the size.
Just wondered in which way you meant overkill? About to build my own winchester based machine(Looking to see how early nf4 boards workout) and was thinking of going down XP120 route.

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Post by Edward Ng » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:28 pm

Unless you're 100% positive it will fit on your board and in your case, it can be a hassle; XP-90 definitely fits, while XP-120 can be a gamble; that's what he means (that along with price, but if you don't mind the cost, I still believe XP-120 is worth it). As for CNPS-7700, it's likely a concern over the weight of the cooler, possibly being hazardous to the mainboard's physical integrity, and, as Mike pointed out, 7700's fan is not as quiet as 7000's. The same issues of fitment and spacing are still a concern with the gigantic 7700 as well, not so the case with 7000.

-Ed

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Post by dmce » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:36 pm

Ed

Thanks. Makes sense. I will wait till ive decided on the mainboard then. Its tough enough selecting/finding the case fans let along the mainboard(With the small fans on the nf4 boards - Read something i didnt like about chaintech boards im sure). All part of the fun i suppose :/

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Post by NamJangNamJa » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:05 am

I found a fanless nForce4 SLI motherboard.

ComputerHQ.com has DFI LanParty NF4 SLi. I found a picture of the board here.

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Post by Edward Ng » Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:48 am

OH SWEEEEET! I know what my next mainboard will be!

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Post by dmce » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:03 am

DFI Lanparty nF4 SLI test pics

http://www.gdm.or.jp/photo/2004/1213/02.jpg

I have hopes for this as my next board as well. I fear the wait may be too long though as my current pc wont play CS:Source :(

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Post by Edward Ng » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:16 am

Something nice I see: pre-sinked surface mount components (regulators and MOSFETs)

Something not nice: jumpers instead of the flip-flop card for switching between SLI and non-SLI mode (never seen so many jumpers on a single device in my whole life); I hope this is a preproduction sample in both pics...

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