Nforce4 plans - need clearance info & your thoughts.

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:48 pm

Ok so over the last few weeks I've narrowed and narrowed my choices for my Nforce4 setup. Here is what my intentions are....

Antec 3700BQE (have this already, grills are cut out)
OCZ Modstream 450w w/ fan swap to Yate Loon D12SM-12 sleeve bearing.
MSI Neo4 SLI Platinum (not for SLI, but rather for its features - Zalman NB47-J) OR DFI NF4 Ultra (w/ NB32J-S)
Athlon 64 3000+ 90nm (trying to find a week 41 or later for better mem controller)
Thermalright XP-120 w/ Yate Loon D12SM-12
OCZ 2x512 Platinum Revision 2 TCCD's (Have these, will run highest FSB possible with 2-2-2-10 timings, should be around 230-240 FSB)
nVidia 6600GT w/ either Zalman ZM80D-HP or VF700-AlCu
Samsung Spinpoint 1614N w/ Nidec motor (have this, reallyl want to try to get a SATA version)
Leadtek TV2000 XP Deluxe TV Tuner (have this)
Yate Loon D12SM-12 case exhaust, D12SL-12 intake @ slightly higher voltage

My biggest concern and the reason for this post are clearance issues. The NB47-J chipset sink is going to cause problems with VGA cooling. I'm thinking the ZM80D isn't going to fit next to it, so I might have to go with the VF700-AlCu but I'd much rather have the ZM80D w/ a 120mm fan @5v running on it. Also the XP-120 will probably cause me to lose DIMM1 with the MSI motherboard, looks like it will fit the DFI fine, but the DFI has more of a clearance issue w/ VGA and the NB47-J than the MSI.

If anyone has a setup similar to this and can give info on clearances it would be greatly appreciated. Also let me know what you think of the overall setup, all critique is welcomed.

velvet45 · Post by **velvet45** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:58 am

Interitus,

I have read in other forums (Anandtech I believe) that some have been having success using the ASUS A8N SLI board. There seems to be enough clearance for the Zalman NB Cooler and the VF 700 CU with a little trimming and careful placement. How do you like those D12SM-12 Yate Loon fans? I just bought several of the smaller 8025M Blk's. I haven't tested them though to see if they are a true quiet sleeve bearing model.

ilancas · Post by **ilancas** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:20 am

I wouldn't want to lose DIMM slot 1 on an MSI board. Why not go for the XP90 cooler instead? On my rig the fan shuts down completely at idle with Cool 'n Quiet (wini 3200) enabled. The XP90 is easier to install as well.

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:09 pm

velvet45-

The Yate Loons are wonderful. I have those, the D12SL-12 and Nexus fans and I choose the D12SM-12 over both others. Almost identical sound at 5v, but still enough RPM horsepower for when desperate needs arise hehe.

I read about the A8N-SLI and clearances on that board. Problem is I don't like Asus and I don't like the shoddy job they did with the bios on that board. It's nowhere near market ready, yet they shoved it out the door just to be the first to have an SLI board in retail. Asus has always been one of my last choices for motherboards and this is going to keep them there.

ilancas-

I don't want to lose DIMM1 either hehe. I have nothing against the XP90 except that I have many quiet 120mm fans and have yet to find a 92mm that fits my taste. I probably won't have C n' Q enabled as I'll be on a decent sized OC most of the time. (3000+ or 3200+ @ 240FSB minimum, will see what my TCCD can do)

Thanks for your comments guys!

ilancas · Post by **ilancas** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:22 pm

If the NF4 chipset is like the NF3 you'll need to use DIMM one for stability when overclocking.

Contrary to popular belief you can overclock with CnC enabled (on the MSI at least) providing you stick with the stock multiplier and adjust HTT only.

I use a Panaflow M1B on my XP90. I know it's not as good as a 120mm, but at low speed (5V) it's very quiet (not silent) and easily provides enough airflow to cool the winnie when not overclocked. The loudest components in my case are the Hitachi drives when seeking, even with acoustic management enabled, followed by the Noisetaker 475W PSU. Even so, when I enter my 12'x9' study I have to listen carefully to hear it.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:11 am

I wouldn't hit too hard on Asus for the BIOS issues. Most motherboards when brand new have faults in the BIOS - it's not uncommon to see 3 or 4 update revisions in the first couple of weeks with many manufacturers.
Asus have a reputation for quality of components, which I can't really argue with. I have one Asus board that has been running 24 horus a day for 6 years and still works.

Getting back to the point:
I would definately go with the ZM80D-HP for the 6600GT. That's exactly what I'll be doing (in fact it sounds like you're building a very similar setup to what I've got planned). The 6600GT doesn't kick out enough heat for the passive cooler to be a concern.

What's this about better memory controllers?
I've not heard about that, you've got me interested...

Spod · Post by **Spod** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:44 am

The next (2nd 90nm) revision of the Athlon 64 will include SSE3 and improved memory controllers. There will be new 90nm versions of the 3800+ and 4000+ using the new core, and presumably the FX-55 as well. I don't know if/when the 3000+ to 3500+ 939 chips will move to the new process.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:11 am

Ah. Well as I should be ordering mine at the end of feb/beginning of march I doubt I'll get one of those, but there you go.

mikeki · Post by **mikeki** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:53 pm

I'm interested in this discussion also. I have an almost identical rig spec'ed out, except using an SLK3000 case and enermax 470 PSU.

Picking the MB is proving challenging because of the NB heatsink and the cpu cooler.

I don't see a clear recommendation about something that works, which is a bit of a bummer. I'm not experienced enough to be blazing trails with the dremel.

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:27 pm

For you guys looking for a board...

The MSI SLI board is going to have the most clearance. IF...you use only 1 card. 2nd slot is practically piggybacked onto the chipset. Also it has onboard Creative 5.1 sound. BUT...it requires a PSU with a -5v wire. Which ATX12v 2.0 doesn't have. That's why I chose the Modstream. It's the only hybrid 24-pin PSU I've seen with a -5v line.

What's this about better memory controllers?
I've not heard about that, you've got me interested...

While Spod's comments are true, this is not what I meant. The current (non strained silicon) Winchesters after week41 are reported by many OC'ers to have a memory controller capable of much higher HTT than the pre-week 41 cores. A lot of people on the pre-week 41 cores are topping out 280HTT'ish while post week 41 cores are hitting the big 300HTT and further. This holds especially true for the 3000+.

As far as Asus goes there are other issues besides the BIOS that irks me, I've just given a few example. I've not owned an Asus board yet that gave even close to a constant stable voltage, yet they overvolt like mad. 1.6 vcore on an Asus means 1.72 or higher most of the time. There's a reason a lot of hardcore OC'ers VDROOP mod the Asus boards. They can't hold a set voltage to save their @$$. I found this especially true with P4C800-E's and A7N8X's. Add their horrid support to the mix and I'm just not interested. More of a DFI/Abit man myself. No experience with MSI. Guess we'll see hehe.

I REALLY like the DFI board but clearances don't look promising. I'm sure it'll fit the XP-120, but a NB32J-S and a ZM80-D next to each other don't look like a possibility.

Contrary to popular belief you can overclock with CnC enabled (on the MSI at least) providing you stick with the stock multiplier and adjust HTT only.

I didn't know this. It's my first A64 build. Thanks for the info!

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:56 am

Well I've spent the last few hours researching more and more into the Nforce4 boards and passively cooling them and clearances and such. Seen a few pics here and there...

Long story short. Nforce4 for now doesn't look good from a quiet computing standpoint.

1) The XP-120 will definitely eat DIMM1 on the MSI boards. It's also confirmed from a number of people that the board OC's a lot better when using the first DIMM set as opposed to DIMM 3/4. Not sure yet on the chipset, but a guy who owns an A8N-SLI emailed Zalman (he uses an NB47-J) and they recommended use of a fan. Ugh.

2) The DFI boards have no room for passive chipset coolers. The vidcard PCB even with a 6600GT overlaps the chipset fan. Argh again. XP-120 fits but either doesn't allow for a large GPU cooler like the Zalman or eats DIMM 1. More argh.

3) A8N-SLI fits the XP-120, has room for passive chipset cooling and a vf700 vidcard cooler, but again...temp issues with passive cooling.

It never ends....

Gigabyte might be an option...however I haven't looked into these yet....I'll check back later. Going to look up some info on the Chaintech VNF4 Ultra as well.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:00 am

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it in this one: wait for the A8N-E!

It has no fans onboard, chipset is passively cooled, the area around the processor socket looks all but identical to the A8N-SLI if you look at leaked photos on google so there'll be room for the XP-120, and it won't block any of the RAM sockets either.
The only hitch is waiting for the damn thing to hit the market...

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:17 am

Ugh...I've been waiting for NF4 for almost 3 months now...these ppl are killing me...

edit:

VNF4 Ultra / non-Ultra not XP-120 compatible, can't go past 240'ish FSB without chipset heat failures.

no word on Gigabyte boards yet.

*sigh*

velvet45 · Post by **velvet45** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:20 am

Meglamaniac,

I have heard that that board may never be produced

It could be that the chipset is not able to handle the heat without a better cooler. Even the larger Zalman NBJ47 has problems handling the NF4 chipset under load. I am just saying here we haven't heard anything about this board shipping and ASUS has its hands full with all the problems a/w the launch of the A8N SLI (That board shipped with a terrible BIOS that has still not been fixed). Go with the NEO4 or the DFI Ultra NF4 boards. They are launching without the problems that ASUS boards are having.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:29 am

Well due to my mostly positive experience with Asus I'd like to stick with them if I can.
Many sites in the UK list the expected delivery of the A8N-E as sometime this month, and are still accepting preorders. This is the first I've heard of it not being produced, and if there was any official word to that effect the first sign would be preorders being stopped (and refunded to those who had already paid), so as far as I can tell it's still on for launch...

velvet45 · Post by **velvet45** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:33 am

Interitus,

Sometimes you just have to have a little faith man

The DFI boards should have no problem accomodating the VF-700- with the Maglev NB cooler in place. That cooler is much quieter than those on the other shipping NF4 boards right now. Many have had no problem installing the XP-120 on the NF4 Ultra (DFI). I have also heard that board prefers slots 2, 4 for the RAM anyway (I will have to confirm that).

Spod · Post by **Spod** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:01 am

Surely the XP-90 is an acceptable compromise if it allows the use of all the memory slots, and fits on a motherboard with acceptable chipset/graphics card positioning? With the Nexus 92mm fan, it'll keep an overclocked processor suitably cool, at a noise level lower than most chipset/graphics card fans. We're only talking a few degrees hotter than with the XP-120, after all.

Passive chipset cooling limiting overclocks can probably (hopefully) be solved by careful planning of case airflow and graphics card fan.

velvet45 · Post by **velvet45** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:10 am

Spod,

Good point about the XP-90. I agree that passive cooling with the NF4 may be possible even when overclocking with the right cooling setup (case, GPU fans).

mikeki · Post by **mikeki** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:25 pm

The Gigabyte K8NU-SLI has a passive cooler on it that doesn't interfere with graphics cards.

This board appears identical to the K8NUXP-SLI except no wifi slot and some special power feature. It's also only $169.

The CPU is the same orientation as the MSI, so it will probably suffer from the memory slot 1 issues with an XP120 though.

I had started another thread on this (which is getting zero traction), but it makes more sense as part of this one.

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:41 pm

I'm just extremely frustrated with all of this so far. I've waited months and months through tons of expected and unexpected delays, through availability and price gouging problems and now this.

Again I have nothing against the XP-90. I'm not saying it's a bad cooler. BUT I have 120mm fans I've tried and tested and tested and tested some more that I'm happy with audibly. (is that a word?) I don't want to start from scratch finding a 92mm. I DONT like the Nexus 92mm from a balance of sound to horsepower level. I may run my rig silent most of the time, but if I want 55-60 CFM on the CPU I can do that with my 120mm fans. It gets hot here in the summer.

I've heard the same of the A8N-E Premium. Looks to be MIA for awhile.

Soo tempted to sell the parts I do have and go backwards to a 754 setup....

As much as I despise Asus sometimes, looks like the A8N-SLI is my choice as of right now.

It fits the XP-120 w/ no mem issues, and can accomodate an NB47-J. My last issue with this board is the ability to mount a Zalman ZM80D on a 6600GT while using the XP-120 and NB47-J at the same time. If it works, it's my decision

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:43 am

Holy crap LOL

DFI is officially ruled out now thanks to this pic...

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/att ... ntid=23067

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:12 am

Ouch.
Whoever designed that board didn't think it through too well...!

Tzupy · Post by **Tzupy** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:26 am

I am also going for Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe, but I'm a bit worried about the chipset heating issue. I already bought the NB47J and the XP-90 for the new board (still waiting for it). I have read somewhere on these forums that the NB47J would increase chipset temps by 13-14 degrees. And that good airflow over it is important (lowers that temp increase). I also plan for overclocking a Winnie from 2 to 2.5 GHz. I'm not sure how much more heat would that induce in the chipset - if I lower the Hypertransport (the memory controller is in the Winnie anyway). For the CPU the XP-90 is more than enough - a friend of mine just bought a boxed 1.8 Winnie and overclocked it to 2.25, the stock heatsink is barely warm. I wonder if the A8N-SLI chipset gets hot when using only one passive 6600GT - as I plan to do for now (or does it get hotter when two cards in SLI communicate over the PCI-E bus).

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:39 am

Well one good thing I did read about the new A64's and NF4 boards on XtremeSystems was that they actually perform better with lower HT speeds. So if you can get to say 250 HTT then you can use a low LDT like 3x and still get great performance. This should help keep the chipset a little cooler.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the A8N-SLI now too.

v3n · Post by **v3n** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:05 pm

Im gonna get the DFI and turn the fan rpm down with some software

Tzupy · Post by **Tzupy** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:30 pm

I am unsure about the effect the FSB has on the nForce4 chipset heat dissipation. I hope to reach at least 250 FSB (for DDR 500 memory) and use the 3x HT multiplier. With the latest (beta) A8N-SLI Deluxe BIOS it's possible to reach even 300 FSB. However, at such high FSB the SATA ports on the nForce4 may malfunction, so that's why I'll get the Deluxe version, for the extra SATA ports.
After thinking over and over about the chipset cooling on nForce4 boards, I came up with my own concept. Unfortunately I have no way to manufacture it (clue: it involves a 60x60x10 mm ~2400 rpm fan).

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:27 pm

Chaintech has an nForce 4 Ultra with passive chipset heatsink and a real sweet price. (newegg) I would not overclock it much,the heatsink is not as big as the blue zalman. This is an Ultra,not SLI or semi SLI,of course SLI only relates to those gamers apt to put $400+ into vid cards. MSI's Ultra is at zipzoomfly now and the ECS ultra is finally in also

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:06 pm

A first look at Epox...which looks a bit better designed than the rest as far as clearances go. If those caps above the CPU area aren't tall, the XP-120 should be mountable.

Dunno about the graphics/chipset area, but looks to be not that bad.

http://www.ocworkbench.com/ocwbcgi/news ... 2100,2322,

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:31 am

ronrem wrote:Chaintech has an nForce 4 Ultra with passive chipset heatsink and a real sweet price. (newegg) I would not overclock it much,the heatsink is not as big as the blue zalman....

xbitlabs burnt out the chipset on this mobo when they were testing it... Chaintech have now revised it and switched to active cooling...

Maybe the Zalman would have fared better, although the original heatsink looked quite chunky... to be honest though I've just about given up on the idea of a passively cooled nforce4 board, at least until the technology's a bit more mature and other people have stress tested their boards to destruction...

Josd · Post by **Josd** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:04 pm

I have used the Asus A8n_SLI with XP-120 and XP-90 and Zalman NB47J cooler for some time now (3 weeks). The systems run without problems.

For more details see: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... 015#155015