Deaf iPod Generation

[qviri]

Come on Bluefront, that's like putting "do not attempt to microwave domestic animals" in a user's manual.

Less nannying can only be a good thing.

Do you really think a red light would stop a teenager? If anything, he'd be be more likely to be called a sissie since he only listens in green.

[Bluefront]

Type "i-pod hearing damage" in a google search. Today I got 1,350,000 hits. Think there's not a problem here?

[Linus]

Type "i-pod hearing damage" in a google search. Today I got 1,350,000 hits. Think there's not a problem here?

...and I get 500,000+ hits when I search for "microwave domestic animals". Your point?

Bluefront makes good points that volume control could easily be built into portable devices such that parents can set volume limits for children. I don't see that as a bad thing. But I don't think that there will be a widespread "deafness epidemic" when today's teenagers reach middle age.

[ATWindsor]

IMHO....based on conversations with my sister the Otolaryngologist, who has spent her entire medical practice studying hearing problems related to noise exposure.....for the sake of one's hearing, avoid the use of any ear-phones for listening to music.

The chances are simply too great that you will be exposed to excessively loud sounds. You're pushing you luck if you do so. Being hearing inpared is no fun, neither is having Tinnitus. Both result from loud noises....even for short periods of time.

Why? Why is earphones any worse than any other sound-source?

AtW

[ATWindsor]

This has been mentioned, but I want to quantify it a bit - legislating a maximum sound output from a device doesn't necessarily affect the output dB. I don't know what the variation in headphones is, but loudspeaker sensitivity can vary from something 86 dB @ 1W & 1m to 98 db 1W & 1m. If I remember right, the human ear perceives 3 dB as a doubling in amplitude, meaning some speakers can produce 16x the volume as others. This makes the output limit either detrimental to those who have low-sensitivity speakers, pointless for reducing hearing loss, or both.

A rule of thumb states that 10 db is a subjective doulbling in amplitude. But a 6db increase is a twice the sound-pressure level, so if you listen to 85 db in 8 hours, you shouldn`t listen to 91 in more than 4.

AtW

[Bluefront]

Well if you actually read some of the Google hits on I-Pod hearing damage/loss, you'll find medical opinions on the subject, many of them. This is exactly like the smoking debate.....many denials on the part of the users.

The warning lite thing would give parents an easy way to monitor their children's usage habits with respect to noise/volume.....right now it's guess-work. I'm certain in a few years that hearing loss as a result of i-pod usage will become more apparent/documented.

There are other things that could be done. Sony could include noise warnings in their advertising, perhaps be forced to do so....like cigarette package warnings.

The device could have a turn-off feature if a certain db/time limit was exceeded. Many options are open. I just named a few. And of course kids won't pay much attention to warnings. That's why other measures are necessary to make these things safe for kids to use.

[Cerb]

I really don't think joking about potential noise-induced hearing loss is appropriate on the SPCR forum. Particularly since it's mostly kids who have the potential to suffer the consequences for the longest time, and it's mostly kids who are doing the most damage to their hearing.

Agreed. But also, most of them don't say anything about what can be done about it. So far I have seen only two, including the OP link here, that had any useful information. Since the story first hit, I've tried to look at every one I could find, and have read well over 100 variations. This is an important issue, and the writers and editors working on it have been lazing on the job.

Etymotic, Shure, Ultimate Ears, and Westone all have very good solutions, that they would love to sell you, and at every price point from $75 to over $750.

In addition, the craptacilur amps used in most DAPs do not help, as they encourage 'SPL fooling' to get detail.

My further thoughts, from 'thinking about it', to 'I need it', through 'the excitement is over, here's what I think':
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=137697
http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1479
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149556

Here's my partial solution to lower the potential risks using an i-pod type device.....

An LED or LCD numerical volume indicator on the device....say 1-100. Set it 1-50 a green lite appears. 50-75 a yellow lite, and 75-max a red lite. This would also be indicated by beeps in the headphones when you change volume. The device would always start-up at zero volume, so you would have to set the volume to your own preference, and not be surprised by a high setting. The numerical reading would be helpful to monitor any hearing changes you might be having.

Aside from starting at 0, this is normal (well, it's usually a 1-40 range, for some reason). Perasonally, I don't want it to start at 0. I want it to start at what I was listening to. I usually set my amp to min when I change environments. That's my choice, and should not be decided by anyone but myself, nor enforced by anyone but myself. Also, starting at minimum really won't help any.

A default max setting of 85db.....to get to the maximum volume,the device would have to be authorized electronically by an owner over 18, or a parent or guardian of someone younger. This could be easily done at the point of purchase. By signing an authouization permit, the parent would be made aware of the potential risk of high volumes.

That's a fine idea, except for not working. Do you know of any standard headphones that have any way to communicate their current nominal dBA at the ear drum? I don't. If you find out, then this might work.

There are enough consumer protection laws on the books right now that no new laws would be needed......in the USA anyway.

These i-pods are hazardous.....and it will take more than education to change the sad state of their usage right now.

Speakers are hazardous. I don't know anyone 20 years my senior that listened to good music that has good hearing (that's part of why I've begun to care about mine!). I can hear better w/ my ER-20 in that my own father can hear normally. I also know no one else older than myself that listens to headphones more than speakers. High SPL is high SPL.

Have you heard most lawn mowers and leaf blowers, these days, either? From 100+ feet away they are uncomfortably loud, and who isn't wearing ear protection?

I have to hold most new phones away from my ear, now, as well (however, big old ones are quiet enough).

It's not just portable music. Everything is getting louder, and my generation will become a half-deaf one. But those that do are doing it to themselves. I do not feel sorry for them, nor do I feel a need to protect them from choices they have made, with full knowledge (if not understanding) of the consequences.

[Cerb]

Type "i-pod hearing damage" in a google search. Today I got 1,350,000 hits. Think there's not a problem here?

...and I get 500,000+ hits when I search for "microwave domestic animals". Your point?

Bluefront makes good points that volume control could easily be built into portable devices such that parents can set volume limits for children. I don't see that as a bad thing. But I don't think that there will be a widespread "deafness epidemic" when today's teenagers reach middle age.

That's the one thing I actually do agree with him on.

[Cerb]

Well if you actually read some of the Google hits on I-Pod hearing damage/loss, you'll find medical opinions on the subject, many of them. This is exactly like the smoking debate.....many denials on the part of the users.

The warning lite thing would give parents an easy way to monitor their children's usage habits with respect to noise/volume.....right now it's guess-work. I'm certain in a few years that hearing loss as a result of i-pod usage will become more apparent/documented.

There are other things that could be done. Sony could include noise warnings in their advertising, perhaps be forced to do so....like cigarette package warnings.

I think they do. Most headphones come with a blurb about hearing loss and tinnitus.

The device could have a turn-off feature if a certain db/time limit was exceeded.

Please prove how it is possible. There is no standard dB/mW or other nominal sensitivity for headphones. They vary.

Many options are open. I just named a few. And of course kids won't pay much attention to warnings. That's why other measures are necessary to make these things safe for kids to use.

...as if they won't get around them. For the most part, kids are more tech-savvy than their parents. Unless the device playing can actually communiate with the headphone to give hard limits, or for the device to have an internal database (regularly updated) of headphones out there (law mandating all sold in the country be put in the DB), there is no way to work that.

As the technology exists, it just can't work. All that will happen will be kids flashing to another country's firmware. Most 5th-graders are more than capable of that feat, while they'd have to teach their parents about it. Those that aren't that good will have their friends do it.

You would need a way to keep anyone from listening too loudly, and right now, it's just not possible. If you do it to the stock buds, FI, watch high-sensitivity low-impedance headphones start getting used more often . Sony makes quite a few that you can buy retail (others make them, too, but anyone looking can find Sony ones).

[Cerb]

IMHO....based on conversations with my sister the Otolaryngologist, who has spent her entire medical practice studying hearing problems related to noise exposure.....for the sake of one's hearing, avoid the use of any ear-phones for listening to music.

The chances are simply too great that you will be exposed to excessively loud sounds. You're pushing you luck if you do so. Being hearing inpared is no fun, neither is having Tinnitus. Both result from loud noises....even for short periods of time.

Why? Why is earphones any worse than any other sound-source?

AtW

They are not worse. They are just more convenient. The worse ones are less convenient, and usually involve tools.

[johnmatrix]

ATWindsor - You're getting things muddled up slightly - the 'exchange rate' as it is known for personal noise exposure purposes, is 3dB here in the UK. i.e. if the measured level increases by 3dB, the sound energy doubles. In Canada and the US (I think), the exchange rate is less severe at 5dB. I don't know of any country or state that uses 6dB as their official exchange rate.

Also, a 10dBA increase in SPL is roughly a doubling of perceived loudness/volume - not 'amplitude'.

On a more general note, why is this subject even being reported as news? I mean, how long has the Sony Walkman been around for for goodness sake. Potential hearing damage or loss from personal stereos has been a problem for the past 30 years!

This has been mentioned, but I want to quantify it a bit - legislating a maximum sound output from a device doesn't necessarily affect the output dB. I don't know what the variation in headphones is, but loudspeaker sensitivity can vary from something 86 dB @ 1W & 1m to 98 db 1W & 1m. If I remember right, the human ear perceives 3 dB as a doubling in amplitude, meaning some speakers can produce 16x the volume as others. This makes the output limit either detrimental to those who have low-sensitivity speakers, pointless for reducing hearing loss, or both.

A rule of thumb states that 10 db is a subjective doulbling in amplitude. But a 6db increase is a twice the sound-pressure level, so if you listen to 85 db in 8 hours, you shouldn`t listen to 91 in more than 4.

AtW

[Cerb]

(snip)

On a more general note, why is this subject even being reported as news? I mean, how long has the Sony Walkman been around for for goodness sake. Potential hearing damage or loss from personal stereos has been a problem for the past 30 years!

IMO, it's because this is one small part of a growing problem that incorporates much more (I know that where I live has gotten far noiser at all times of day over the past ten years), but the iPod allows for it to be news people will read.

[ATWindsor]

ATWindsor - You're getting things muddled up slightly - the 'exchange rate' as it is known for personal noise exposure purposes, is 3dB here in the UK. i.e. if the measured level increases by 3dB, the sound energy doubles. In Canada and the US (I think), the exchange rate is less severe at 5dB. I don't know of any country or state that uses 6dB as their official exchange rate.

Also, a 10dBA increase in SPL is roughly a doubling of perceived loudness/volume - not 'amplitude'.

On a more general note, why is this subject even being reported as news? I mean, how long has the Sony Walkman been around for for goodness sake. Potential hearing damage or loss from personal stereos has been a problem for the past 30 years!

This has been mentioned, but I want to quantify it a bit - legislating a maximum sound output from a device doesn't necessarily affect the output dB. I don't know what the variation in headphones is, but loudspeaker sensitivity can vary from something 86 dB @ 1W & 1m to 98 db 1W & 1m. If I remember right, the human ear perceives 3 dB as a doubling in amplitude, meaning some speakers can produce 16x the volume as others. This makes the output limit either detrimental to those who have low-sensitivity speakers, pointless for reducing hearing loss, or both.

A rule of thumb states that 10 db is a subjective doulbling in amplitude. But a 6db increase is a twice the sound-pressure level, so if you listen to 85 db in 8 hours, you shouldn`t listen to 91 in more than 4.

AtW

I just used amplitude bacuse it said so in the post i qouted, sorry about that.

The sound power is doubled with an increase of 3 db (10* log W/W(0)), the sound pressure is doubled with an increase of 6 db (10* log (p^2/p(0)^2). At least here in Norway we use equivalent sound pressure level over the whole day (8 hours for the working man). A doubling in sound pressure (6db) means half as long exposure time.

Sound power and sound pressure is not the same. (I presume you ment sound power when you said sound energy? in any case they are proportional)

AtW

[elec999]

I like my music loud. But I also keep it at a level where it doesnt get me death. And I am sure that Ipod headphones cannot output 112dba.
Tgabjs

[johnmatrix]

I meant energy/power/intensity - whatever you want to call it.

Remember for incoherent sound, you should be talking about the *square* of the acoustic Pressure (which is proportional to intensity/energy). A doubling in the energy received (i.e. 3dB, NOT 6dB) means half as long exposure time, and so on.

I just used amplitude bacuse it said so in the post i qouted, sorry about that.

The sound power is doubled with an increase of 3 db (10* log W/W(0)), the sound pressure is doubled with an increase of 6 db (10* log (p^2/p(0)^2). At least here in Norway we use equivalent sound pressure level over the whole day (8 hours for the working man). A doubling in sound pressure (6db) means half as long exposure time.

Sound power and sound pressure is not the same. (I presume you ment sound power when you said sound energy? in any case they are proportional)

AtW

[Cerb]

I like my music loud. But I also keep it at a level where it doesnt get me death. And I am sure that Ipod headphones cannot output 112dba.
Tgabjs

112dBA? Any of them should be able to do that!

The dB/mW rating is based on an 'average' ear canal and distance to the eardrum with a fake head. It is how many dB(A?) are nominally produced at 1mW. Most are in the 90-110dB range.

Most DAPs can output 20mW/channel or more. In addition, most common headphones are getting even more sensitive, along with players being able to give more power.

[mrzed]

Well numerous posts here have referred to noise-isolating in-ear monitors as a possible solution. I am aware of the Shure models ($++), but some have claimed less expensive alternatives.

My personal requirements are based on 90 minutes + of daily carpooling with 3 others who seem to talk more about TV shows / celebrity gossip than anything else. I am currently forced to choose between the mental anguish of any part of my brain being used to retain such important information, or using an audio player at volumes too high to be good in the long run. I've been searching for the best answer, but so far I don't trust the cheap noise-cancelling units, and can't afford the noise isolating ones I've been able to find.

Given the number of audio geeks that frequent this board, anyone want to provide a list of options available at different price points? Also include any info about inexpensive but effective active noise cancelling headphones if such a thing is now viable.

[Cerb]

Well numerous posts here have referred to noise-isolating in-ear monitors as a possible solution. I am aware of the Shure models ($++), but some have claimed less expensive alternatives.

My personal requirements are based on 90 minutes + of daily carpooling with 3 others who seem to talk more about TV shows / celebrity gossip than anything else. I am currently forced to choose between the mental anguish of any part of my brain being used to retain such important information, or using an audio player at volumes too high to be good in the long run. I've been searching for the best answer, but so far I don't trust the cheap noise-cancelling units, and can't afford the noise isolating ones I've been able to find.

Given the number of audio geeks that frequent this board, anyone want to provide a list of options available at different price points? Also include any info about inexpensive but effective active noise cancelling headphones if such a thing is now viable.

Shure E2c: $75 or so. Several of the Head-fi sponsor stores will give prices around that if you call (Shure implemented a new MAP policy not long ago). On the cheap, these will be your best option.
Ety ER-6i: $90 or so.
Westone UM-1: $100 or so. Supposedly better than the Shure E3c. I've been tempted to sell my E3c and find out, since the cable is also supposed to be less microphonic.
Shure E3c: $115 or so. Call.

Cheap and not as good at isolating:
Koss The Plug: under $20. Not known for being that good.
Sharp MD-33: apparently nice.
Sony EX71, EX81: decent, but sound like crappy cheap phones, and are known for breaking.

[ATWindsor]

I meant energy/power/intensity - whatever you want to call it.

Remember for incoherent sound, you should be talking about the *square* of the acoustic Pressure (which is proportional to intensity/energy). A doubling in the energy received (i.e. 3dB, NOT 6dB) means half as long exposure time, and so on.

I just used amplitude bacuse it said so in the post i qouted, sorry about that.

The sound power is doubled with an increase of 3 db (10* log W/W(0)), the sound pressure is doubled with an increase of 6 db (10* log (p^2/p(0)^2). At least here in Norway we use equivalent sound pressure level over the whole day (8 hours for the working man). A doubling in sound pressure (6db) means half as long exposure time.

Sound power and sound pressure is not the same. (I presume you ment sound power when you said sound energy? in any case they are proportional)

AtW

Ah, of course, now I understand your point, guess my brain was on vacation today, of course you are correct

*Embarresed AtW goes to the corner in shame*

AtW

[BlueCan]

I've been searching for the best answer, but so far I don't trust the cheap noise-cancelling units, and can't afford the noise isolating ones I've been able to find.

Given the number of audio geeks that frequent this board, anyone want to provide a list of options available at different price points? Also include any info about inexpensive but effective active noise cancelling headphones if such a thing is now viable.

I'd recommend starting with a Shure E2c or E3c or Westone UM-1. All three have significantly better audio fidelity than the stock iBuds and cut the ambient noise floor significantly. The Shure's will be easier to find. All three will run in the neighborhood of $100.

Koss "The Plug" are not great fidelity-wise, but cut down on noise, can be modded to be "better" and can be had for $20. I THINK Radio Shack used to sell them. You might still be able to find them there...

I have a pair of E3c's that replaced the earplugs that I use while using "high noise" tools around my property (lawnmower, gas trimmer, rototiller, chainsaw, tractor) and while travelling by air. When mobile, I usually drive them with a low-gain DIY PIMETA headphone amp from the iPod's "line out". The iPod amp is one of the limiting factors in its sound...

For "home headphone" listening, I use Sony MDR-V6, Allesandro MS-2i or Grado HF-1 driven by either a DIY Gilmore Dynalo or a DIY Pete Millet Hybrid. Usually the Millet from the HF-1. Right now, I'm more of a "tube" and "fun" guy than a "solid state" and "accurate reproduction" guy.

-Patrick

[mrzed]

Thanks for the info - I'm leaning towards the E2C's, as I can find them for around $100(Cdn), while the E3C's are all over $200. I'll mostly be listening to MP3's anyhow (albeit 256Kbps +). Is there a big noticeable jump in sound quality between the two?

[mathias]

The warning lite thing would give parents an easy way to monitor their children's usage habits with respect to noise/volume.....right now it's guess-work.

As was said before, it would be an even easier way to monitor peers' usage habits. But maybe it would work on other music players, since the listener would already be looked down on for not having an ipod.

As the technology exists, it just can't work. All that will happen will be kids flashing to another country's firmware. Most 5th-graders are more than capable of that feat, while they'd have to teach their parents about it. Those that aren't that good will have their friends do it.

I think it could work, have the player come with some kind of device that measures how powerful the headphones are to determine what the limit would be, which would also measure the frequency distortion and the player would have an option to try to correct it.

I've been searching for the best answer, but so far I don't trust the cheap noise-cancelling units, and can't afford the noise isolating ones I've been able to find.

Maybe closed-type big headphones would work? I hear they have lousy sound quality though.

[Cerb]

As the technology exists, it just can't work. All that will happen will be kids flashing to another country's firmware. Most 5th-graders are more than capable of that feat, while they'd have to teach their parents about it. Those that aren't that good will have their friends do it.

I think it could work, have the player come with some kind of device that measures how powerful the headphones are to determine what the limit would be, which would also measure the frequency distortion and the player would have an option to try to correct it*.

SPL meters run around $50. For full size headphones (well, with full-size drivers), you could make a small aparatus to approximate the spacing and loading. The smaller you get, the harder it is (especially the loading part, but that might not be critical). I can't think of a simple or cheap way to do it with buds.

Then, it takes more space, costs more money, adds more complexity, and I bet it would still be simple for a kid to get around.

There's no way to measure the sound other than attempting to create a facsimile of the ear, as far as I know.

* many non-iPods do have such a thing--a user-adjustable equalizer . Don't use IEMs without one

[Hobbes26]

The problem of these devices contributing to hearing loss has been around for quite a few years, and we're not going to be able to fix it by putting limiting circuits or whatnot to the devices themselves. It's too difficult, and people will circumvent them anyways

The only way to reduce the incidence of hearing loss is to inform the user on hearing loss.

[Shadowknight]

I've never really been into portable players. Even at low setting, with headphones instead of ear buds, they always seemed too loud. When I started driving a car a few years ago, I couldn't listen to music very long before turning it off because the minimum threshold is too loud (really. Past cars have NOT started out this loud). Considering I kept turning it on and off, and found it uncomfortable on, I've given up on the car radio entirely and have listened to one song in the last year.

[mathias]

So....

does anyone have any idea if headphones are actually worse than speakers? If you think it's absurd and inconceivable, then could you explain why?

I have heard that they are worse. I don't remember why, maybe sound from close source is somehow more powerful relative to how perceptible it is, maybe sound more concentrated from a single direction is worse on the ears, maybe headphones seem quiter because you don't feel the sound with anything other than your ears.

[Cerb]

So....

does anyone have any idea if headphones are actually worse than speakers? If you think it's absurd and inconceivable, then could you explain why?

I have heard that they are worse. I don't remember why, maybe sound from close source is somehow more powerful relative to how perceptible it is, maybe sound more concentrated from a single direction is worse on the ears, maybe headphones seem quiter because you don't feel the sound with anything other than your ears.

They are 'worse' for four main reasons, off the top of my head:

1. Portable and easy use. You can't use speakers for as long as you can use headphones, because you can't just take them with you. Because of that, you can figure there is increased exposure time.

2. SPL fooling. When you can't hear detail, you turn it up. You can blame everyone using crappy headphones and players having crappy amps for this one. My PCDP (one of the early Sony MP3-playing models) had a significantly better amp than my current flash player. Now, having a dedicated amp, I get the same kind of enjoyment I used to, and have the volume lower.

3. SNR. If the noise floor around you is loud, you're going to turn the headphones up to compensate. IIRC, you typically need about 5dB on most portables. So, you're near a street and it's 100dB, you go to 105dB. You should listen to that less than half the time as if it were just at 100dB. However, this also goes along with #2. With enough fidelity (I'm still dealing with compressed music, here), you can listen nominally at or below the noise around you, even with very open headphones.

4. Everything getting louder (due to this, see #2 and #3). Telephones, cars, power tools, computers...it really has been getting louder. I'm occasionally amazed at how...not painful some older lawnmowers are, or cordless phones, or even cars.

I can't use my cordless phone right against my ear, on its lowest volume setting, because it is actually painful--old yellowing heavy phone on the wall, though? Perfect.

This all should be a major problem, but gets little attention. IMO, the headphone thing is just a small part of it. What is especially alarming is that with everything being so loud, your ears may not get enough quiet time to recover from dangerously loud noise. You can take some very loud noise without any permanent damage, if you can get a couple days with no loud noise at all for your ears to heal.

I don't believe headphones themselves are a problem, but are just a thing for the media to focus on, as the specific problems with listening to music too loudly for too long are, as I see it, caused by the above factors, combined with consumer ignorance (which most of these articles are not helping with).

[MikeK]

My grandpa (87) has trouble hearing (and my other grandpa did too for that matter), he has to use hearing aids and it's still not that great. (but he is still healthy and gets around well, has all his teeth, keeps a large garden, climbs on the steep roof to clean the gutters sheesh.) Since I plan on living to be 100 I've already been careful to some degree about my ears, just like everything else. Maybe you guys don't plan on living to be 100

After the Velvet Revolver concert at the Pageant, I plan on bringing earplugs to concerts now just in case. Man that was the loudest thing ever, it actually hurt my ears. I'm sure you guys have been to concerts in small spaces where your ears aren't right until the next day or the day after. It's a bad feeling. I don't go to many in the first place so hopefully I haven't suffered too much permanent damage from that.

I don't use headphones a lot. It's often to keep my computer music or game quiet late at night, and since it's late it doesn't take much volume. I don't use them to compete with other sounds. I doubt I will ever be one of those people that walk around with them on all the time (all their lives?). I love music but I am probably an escapist in too many ways already so when I'm actually out and about I try to be there I will probably get a portable MP3 player someday, I mostly play music at home nowadays though. With the MP3 players, I understand that you can't create playlists (except when you've done it at your computer). Even if you could it would be too slow for me (especially if it had a big chunk of my music on it). I've scrolled around on the ipod before. On my computer, I routinely queue up a few or 15 songs with winamp that I want to hear. I guess a laptop would be the way I want to go I once tried to get a small old tablet PC setup to play music in my car so that I could select songs for winamp to play like I do now. Unfortunately it turned out to be too slow of a machine.

Earbuds suck. They hurt after a while and they don't sound as enveloping as the kind that go around your ear. Noise-cancelling headphones for the airplane would rock. Maybe someday I'll get some.

Yes this problem is already happening, especially in Sweden

But faced with the frightening statistic that 1.5 million people out of a Swedish population of nine million suffer from tinnitus, or ringing ears, politicians felt they could no longer turn a deaf ear to the problem

[Bluefront]

Let me restate my idea for a db/time limitation for an i-pod. It would not really take a db reading.....a 1-100 volume reading would only aproximate a real db reading. And the i-pod limiter would only measure the volume/time setting of the i-pod. Any speaker amplification would be another subject. Perhaps the ear-buds would not be detachable from the i-pod, which would effectively cancel the use of amplified ear-phones.

I think it would be easy to pull this off....provided the consumer safety commission gets involved, and we get serious about hearing loss in children, a terrible thing.

[Cerb]

Earbuds suck.

Yes, they do. They're popular purely because they are small and cheap, so are what come with DAPs.

They hurt after a while and they don't sound as enveloping as the kind that go around your ear. Noise-cancelling headphones for the airplane would rock. Maybe someday I'll get some.

Forget noise cancelling. Go for isolating ones that can fit Comply tips or Shure foam tips, and say goodbye to the outside world .