External Radiators?

The alternative to direct air cooling

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

External Radiators?

Post by badkarma » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:45 pm

Hi all,

My specs are as follows:

Origenae X11 case
7800GTX
DFI NF4 Ultra-D mobo
3200+ X2 (OC'ed to 2400Mhz)

I've been looking at the reserator line with quite some interest. My HTPC is in my equipment rack and the hole in my wall for my AV cables is somewhat close to my HTPC. I'm hoping I might be able to use a reserator or reserator2 with the unit in the other room. Maybe with a large house fan blowing on the Res2 unit since it's not in the same room. I'd have to run 4-5ft of tubing between the unit and my htpc though. Would this work? Are there other external units I should look at? I only want to watercool my cpu and chipset right now.

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: External Radiators?

Post by zds » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:23 am

badkarma wrote:I'd have to run 4-5ft of tubing between the unit and my htpc though. Would this work? Are there other external units I should look at? I only want to watercool my cpu and chipset right now.
Couple of comments: Reserator pump might be able to do that, if the machine and reserator tower are at the same height. But, I am pretty sure you would get both better cooling and lower noise with some regular radiator for 2 or 3 120mm fans with some undervolted quiet fans than with Reserator and house fan.

For passive system, an option is Innovatek Konvekt-O-Matics: Image

System based on them most likely will cost a bit more, but then you are on the safe side as the Konvek-O-Matic is modular, so you can always at more modules to it if temps go too high. Then I'd also recommend some pump with high pressure head, as it needs to push the water through the radiator, waterblocks and multiple meters of tubing (was the 4-5' estimate a total or just one way?). My personal favorite is the Laing Delphi DDC, but by searching this group you can find a lot of different opinions.

The reserator pump has only some 1/7th of the pressure head the DDC offers, so it remains to be seen if it can pump that far. (Reserator pump has 60cm and DDC 4.3m, iirc.)

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:54 am

Hmm, the hole in the wall is about a foot higher than the floor where the computer and the radiator would sit on either side. So I guess it may not work that well, although I could punch another hole in the wall near the floor.

BTW, is the DDC quiet? Is it the same as the Swiftech MCP655 Pump? I read somewhere that the MCP655 wasn't very quiet which concerns me.

peteamer
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 am
Location: 'Sunny' Cornwall U.K.

Post by peteamer » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:29 am

badkarma, don't worry about a height difference.

Unless you have the top of the res lower than some other point in your loop..... and then only if you get a leak. :D

As for other type height concerns, Check this out.

I'd be more worried about getting the incoming water to the top of the res, to make sure it works more effectively.


Regards
Pete

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:03 am

peteamer wrote:badkarma, don't worry about a height difference.

Unless you have the top of the res lower than some other point in your loop..... and then only if you get a leak. :D

As for other type height concerns, Check this out.

I'd be more worried about getting the incoming water to the top of the res, to make sure it works more effectively.


Regards
Pete
Thanks Pete. If I went the Reserator2 route I can easily place the unit higher than the HTPC.

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:21 pm

badkarma wrote:Hmm, the hole in the wall is about a foot higher than the floor where the computer and the radiator would sit on either side. So I guess it may not work that well, although I could punch another hole in the wall near the floor.
That's not a problem, even according to manufacturer specs. Reserator pump has pressure head of 60cm, or two feet, so as long as difference between pump and highest/lowest position of the loop is between the two-foot range, you're fine.
BTW, is the DDC quiet? Is it the same as the Swiftech MCP655 Pump? I read somewhere that the MCP655 wasn't very quiet which concerns me.
DDC is MCP350 in swiftech naming scheme. And as said, for every pump there are ppl who consider it hopelessly too noisy, so look for a consensus, not any single opinion :-). For my take on DDC noise, see this: http://zds.iki.fi/zds/projectlog/2005/12/12/80.

I also encourage you to search these forums for "DDC", you will get a lot of other opinions.

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:55 pm

Thanks for the pointers guys. I guess I have to figure out whether I want to go with the res2 or build my own system. I definitely see the value in a premade kits along with their drawbacks. If I did go with the res2 right now, and then decide to watercool more devices, could I disable the res2 pump and put a Laing D5 or something inline?

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:01 pm

badkarma wrote:If I did go with the res2 right now, and then decide to watercool more devices, could I disable the res2 pump and put a Laing D5 or something inline?
Yes. At least with Reserator 1 Zalman even provided instructions on manual on how to replace the pump with external one.

(btw, Laing D5 is swiftech MCP65x)

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:45 pm

Can the pump be also placed in the other room? If say I went something like:

ThermoChill PA120.3 w/ Yate Loon D12SL-12
Swiftech Storm or AquaXtreme MP-05 SP LE
Laing D5

I guess it's not passive anymore, but if the pump and fans are in the other room I should be silent.

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:38 pm

badkarma wrote:Can the pump be also placed in the other room? If say I went something like:

ThermoChill PA120.3 w/ Yate Loon D12SL-12
Swiftech Storm or AquaXtreme MP-05 SP LE
Laing D5

I guess it's not passive anymore, but if the pump and fans are in the other room I should be silent.
Sure. It doesn't really matter where the pump is in the loop, however some pumps give more flow if inlet is unrestrictive. I would seriously consider Swiftech Apogee, it has a lot lower pressure loss, so it should do better in a silent system.

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:00 pm

zds wrote:
Sure. It doesn't really matter where the pump is in the loop, however some pumps give more flow if inlet is unrestrictive. I would seriously consider Swiftech Apogee, it has a lot lower pressure loss, so it should do better in a silent system.
Thanks, think I read that people prefer the Apogee over the Storm.

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:29 am

badkarma wrote:Thanks, think I read that people prefer the Apogee over the Storm.
Yeah, especially for a quiet system. See this to see why. It shows that with same head pressure Apogee gives you more flow - and when silencing a computer, this enables you to undervolt the pump farther, as it does not need to push so hard.

If you want maximum overclocks, then Storm might be better, but results really are a bit mixed on this one.

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:41 am

I'm now thinking of the following:

-Laing DDC (pro or just regular?)
-Swiftech Apogee
-Mastercleer 7/16th hoses
-not sure about radiator, was considering find a car rad and try it passively...

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:17 am

badkarma wrote:-not sure about radiator, was considering find a car rad and try it passively...
Definitely worth a try. And if it needs airflow, it should do with any slight movement of air.. And as you can get car radiator for quite cheap if you are not picky about the model (like 10€ here), you do not lose much if it does not work.

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:20 am

What's the difference with the alphacool top? I think the DDC Pro is the 10W DDC + Alphacool top and the Ultra is the 18W DDC + Alphacool top, but what do the top's do?

HammerSandwich
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:21 pm
Location: 15143, USA
Contact:

Post by HammerSandwich » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:45 am

badkarma wrote:...what do the top's do?
Allow increased flow without DIY hassles. See this old Systemcooling article for info.

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:49 am

badkarma wrote:What's the difference with the alphacool top? I think the DDC Pro is the 10W DDC + Alphacool top and the Ultra is the 18W DDC + Alphacool top, but what do the top's do?
They make the pump quieter. Acrylic is quite good sound insulator and it does not vibrate as easily as many other plastics. And naturally the thickness helps a lot, 24mm acrylic compared to ~1mm PVC/PC/similar is quite a difference..

See this and this.

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:15 pm

Thanks. Since I'm going to placing the radiator externally, I guess it would be better to use an AC pump?

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:18 pm

badkarma wrote:Thanks. Since I'm going to placing the radiator externally, I guess it would be better to use an AC pump?
Do per your preference. It shouldn't be hard to find some spare 12V/1A power supply lying around, or take power cable with the tubes. 1A wire does not really matter anymore, if you draw two water tubes around..

But yeah, it can be AC, too, if you think it works better.

zenboy
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:25 pm

Post by zenboy » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:14 pm

Depending on how far away your radiator will be, and the vertical difference between the top of the loop and the bottom of the loop, a DC pump might not be able to handle it (pump head ratings on those mag drive pumps aren't super hot). I, for one, have a cheap submersible fountain pump ferreted away for a project like this one someday. Since the radiator is going to be somewhere else, I figure a noisy pump can be right over there with it.

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:18 pm

zenboy wrote:Depending on how far away your radiator will be, and the vertical difference between the top of the loop and the bottom of the loop, a DC pump might not be able to handle it (pump head ratings on those mag drive pumps aren't super hot)
Are you sure?

For the data I have seen it's just the other way round - AC pumps have usually more flow but less pressure head, as they are meant for aquariums.

See this: http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_mcp655-05.html

For me it looks like the mag pumps are leading the pack when it comes to pressure head.

zenboy
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:25 pm

Post by zenboy » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:35 pm

Sorry, I should have qualified that. Pond pump, not aquarium pump. The aquarium pumps are built for lower head and lower noise. I have a DD 12V that produces some pretty amazing head and flow rates, but I have my doubts that it would adequately move coolant from my basement to my computer room. The pond pump I have which is rated for something ridiculous like 4psi, 23ft head, however, would (hopefully) be able to handle it. It is, however, a nuisance of horrifying noise that is only barely more tolerable when it is submerged in water.

zds
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by zds » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:43 pm

zenboy wrote:Sorry, I should have qualified that. Pond pump, not aquarium pump.
Ah, indeed, you said fountain and that it's noisy, yeah, sorry :-).

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:28 pm

systemcooling lists the modded DDC as 138.4" head, the hole for my AV cables is only 1ft above the HTPC but will probably need 4-5ft horizontally between radiator and htpc. I assume this should be fine. I think I found a passive heatsink that will work with my chipset finally, so I can do away with a chipset waterblock.

HammerSandwich
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:21 pm
Location: 15143, USA
Contact:

Post by HammerSandwich » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:27 pm

badkarma wrote:I assume this should be fine.
No problem at all. While head indicates how much relative pressure a pump can generate from input to output, a closed-loop setup (i.e. most PC WCing) works to balance any height differences. IOW, the water coming down one side helps push water back up the other. So the pump's pressure doesn't overcome differences in height so much as it overcomes the frictional resistance caused by the system's flow. Note that a loop that exceeds the pump's head can be a hassle to fill and bleed, so it's probably best avoided anyway. As with everything, it's never totally that simple. For example, if your loop rises 100' above the pump, the pump's seal or housing will probably fail from the extreme absolute pressure...

Butcher
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:58 am
Location: UK

Post by Butcher » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:35 am

zds wrote:That's not a problem, even according to manufacturer specs. Reserator pump has pressure head of 60cm, or two feet, so as long as difference between pump and highest/lowest position of the loop is between the two-foot range, you're fine.
Read the thread posted. Height difference makes no difference. It's length of tubing and choice of components that make the difference. The person in the other thread managed to pump water round a loop with a height difference of 5 metres with a 1.5m head pump.

You could have the reserator on the floor with your comp strapped to the ceiling and it would work fine, despite being much more than 60cm.

HammerSandwich
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:21 pm
Location: 15143, USA
Contact:

Post by HammerSandwich » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:12 pm

Butcher wrote:You could have the reserator on the floor with your comp strapped to the ceiling and it would work fine, despite being much more than 60cm.
I used to believe this, then Rusty075 convinced me otherwise. Of course I haven't tested any of this, but I think a Reserator on the floor is quite distinct from a reservoir 5M above the pump.

The problem is that the Reserator is not actually a sealed loop, but a reservoir with a pump on the bottom. Return water does not increase the pressure at the pump's intake. Note the vent in the Reserator's cap; the water level would rise if the pressure increased. So the pump can push water no higher than 60cm above the fill level of the water in the reservoir.

If the reservoir were at the top of the loop, the sealed feed line to the pump would allow tremendous pressure at its inlet. And that's exactly what we see in the 5M Eheim link.

oguzokay
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:42 pm

Post by oguzokay » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:53 am

I'd definetely suggest and Innovatek Konvect O Matic Ultra for your system. I've been passively water cooling my Intel 640, Ati X50XT, i955 North Bridge and Samsung 200 GB HDD over 7 months and I'm absolutely pleased with the results. My desktop runs quieter then every laptop on the market both at idle and under load...

Innovatek HPPS+ is literally (I mean it) silent :)

badkarma
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by badkarma » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:05 am

oguzokay wrote:I'd definetely suggest and Innovatek Konvect O Matic Ultra for your system. I've been passively water cooling my Intel 640, Ati X50XT, i955 North Bridge and Samsung 200 GB HDD over 7 months and I'm absolutely pleased with the results. My desktop runs quieter then every laptop on the market both at idle and under load...

Innovatek HPPS+ is literally (I mean it) silent :)
Interesting. zds suggested their passive rad as well. Can't seem to find an english website though. Too bad their site's all in german. Oh I found that ultra radiator at frozencpu... wow that thing is $$$. Probably better to just grab a copper civic rad!

oguzokay
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:42 pm

Post by oguzokay » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:13 pm

yes it certainly isn't cheap. But considering what it's capable of, it s worth every penny. Konvect-o Matic line passive radiators are magnificient pieces of german engineering. In the past I ve used both Reserator and Thermaltake Rocket as passive radiators. They were far away from being sufficient to cool down my system. Especially the latter was just a piece of trash. Make no mistake about it, german and asian engineering are by no means at par...

Post Reply