What do you guys recommend?

Cooling Processors quietly

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cwestpha
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What do you guys recommend?

Post by cwestpha » Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:34 pm

I have a brand new P4 3Ghz, Radeon 9800 PRO, on a passively cooled I865 based motherboard. All of this is enclosed in a Lian Li PC-6070.
As you can guess with all of this it is rather hot in there. The stock heatsink and fan constantly gives out a high pitched sound when the case is closed and under load.
Under heavy load I get a CPU temp of about 57 C with a fan speed of over 5,000 RPM (when the side panel is off it runs about 45 C). Naturally I don’t keep the side cover on often.
The main problem I have is with the sound of the CPU heat sink. However I believe the true thermal problem is with the heat generated by the 9800 (even completely removed from a case the memory runs hot to the touch). With such close proximity to the passively cooled Northbridge and the CPU it greatly raises in caste temperatures quite rapidly.
I have come up with two possible solutions.
1) Replace the CPU heat sink with a Zalman 7000Cu, add BGA ram sinks to the video card, add a 80 mm quite fan to blow over the GPU and north bridge. Now this will cut down sound levels quite a bit, but I will still be running close to maximum thermal limits under full load.
2) Water cooling. Problem is water cooling is expensive.

Now I have as much as $250 to spend on either of these solutions. For water cooling I would be looking for a kit that would be rather easy to assemble and includes a good CPU and GPU sink that works with my system. Ideally this would also include a Northbridge sink too since that runs warm since the system is running in dual DDR 400 mode.
While I am a seasoned system integrator (ie I have been building PCs for people for over 5 years) I would still like a relatively simple and vary quiet water cooling kit (the only experience I have outside of air cooling is a few Vapochill powered systems).
Oh, and I live is the US so take shipping and handling into account too (don’t care if it is ground shipping) please.

HearNoEvil
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Post by HearNoEvil » Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:58 pm

Hi cwestpha,
I would go for the first option, which I think would be the easiest thing to do. Get a Zalman cooler for your CPU. But a fan over the GPU might result in air in your system just circulating without actually being changed with fresh cool air. It sounds like your current system fan is not effective enough.

Perhaps you can solve this by adding one powerfull system fan to blow out some of the hot air in your case. Or, if your case supports it, add two quiet fans: One on the top of your case that blows air in and one at the buttom that blows air out so you get a nice airflow running through the entire case. This might also solve your problem with RAM heating up.

Since you live in the US, I would recommend getting the panaflo fan, which is very cheap when buying them in the states.

Have you thought of passively cooling your (very nice!) graphic card too? If you are going to do that, you should seriously consider a good case fan.

I haven't done any watercooling myself, so if somebody else think that would be a better solution, let us know.

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:10 pm

I have three system fans (two intake and one outtake) in addition to the two fans of my PSU (it’s a true power) that pull air out of the top of my case. I have to agree that the problem is ventilation but MODing the case is out of the question. Having a “blow hole” while being effective would make the case to loud for me at nights.

As for the video card the problem is not actually the core temperature or the fan, it is the heat given off from the memory (I have tried under clocking but it just doesn’t work to well).
The memory chips give off massive amounts of heat (and naturally ATI doesn’t put RAM sinks on them anyways) which raises, hits the massive heat sink of the north bridge, and then finally hits the CPU and causes it to have some fun. The real problem I feel is, as you said, the removal of the heat from the case and adding cool air to the mix.
I am starting to thin a water cooling system where the heat from the CPU and GPU can be removed and pumped out of the case would greatly help temperatures inside the case and also allow the possibility of an over clock on the GPU. (highest quality settings at 1024 x 768 @ 32 bit color here I come)
But let me just tell you playing Vice City with 6X AA and 16X filtering is sweet. ^.^

I do have to admit I am a bit disappointed with this system I built. Usually I build systems that beat the Alienware equivalent by ten to fifty percent. This one is only slightly less in most benchmarks though.

ruprag
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Post by ruprag » Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:57 pm

You might want to:
1) get a zalman HS for the CPU
2) isolate your psu from the rest of the case and duck air in from the top 5.25" bay(s)
3) get a Zalman for the GPU also
4) add 1 more exhaust fan (or move 1 of the intakes to exhaust)

read some of the modders articles here :-)

edit:
another option for the CPU is SLK (x00) I don't remember the number for P4 and a Panaflo on a bracket to cool it.

Dr.CrackEnHore
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Post by Dr.CrackEnHore » Sun Jun 29, 2003 4:47 pm

Get a swifttech water cooling system for right around $250. Get the big 2X120mm rad and then mount it outside of the case. Some sort of external set-up.

I have plans for mounting something to my desk but it will probably be quite involved and I will probably need a second pump. This would be the best way to carry all of the heat out of your case.

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:26 pm

Ruprag:
If I isolate the PSU I will harm the ability for my computer to remove heat from the case. The True power series actually has two fans that blow heat from the inside of the case to the outside. Since this fan is positioned right above my CPU’s heat sink I would lose even more ability to draw the heat out of the case.
Getting one for the GPU will not help at all. In fact since more heat would dissipate directly off of the back of the card the heat would rise more concentrated right above the CPU and north bridge heat sinks. This way at least I am only getting concentrated heat from four memory chips as the heat from the front of the card must travel around the card.
I have tried switching the rear outtake to an intake and rely upon the PSU alone to remove the hot air. This lowers the temp a few degrees initially but so much of the hot air has to go through the PSU fans that it winds up building up even more in the case.

I may add pictures soon to show you how my rig is set up. Lastly I would not want to do a lot of MODs to the case because it would make the thing more noisy. Lian Li did a good job making the thing quite, but it retains heat to easily.

The good doctor: ^.~

I have been looking at Waterchil and SwiftTech based solutions. The one that will integrate the easiest will be the H20-8500PV. Naturally this too has its problems. First I do not know how noisy it is. They say the fans are 32 dBA but of course I don’t know how much noise the pump will make now how much sound will be dampened by the case. I suppose that if they got to annoying I could always set up a fan controller using resisters. But the plus is I can get the whole kit for about $150 and it will do the job.
As for the H20-22500-PV (the one you recommended) I don’t know where/how I would mount the fans and again I am not sure if it will actually be quite enough since it is outside the case and has no hope of being muffled in the least (its 25 dBA). This would cost about $235.

So far if I had to make a choice I would get a 8500 bases kit and then replace the fans with some ultra quite 80 mm fans. This could work, but how much sound it would produce is anyone guess. Since I will be spending a whole lot of money either way I need to know if it will work.

Pictures of my rig will be coming soon.

HearNoEvil
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Post by HearNoEvil » Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:04 am

cwestpha wrote:Pictures of my rig will be coming soon.
Good idea.

Then we could see if you can tweak some of the non-active parts too. For exaple rounded ide cables instead of flat ones, unless you use SATA, of course. Also, it would be nice to know how many pci cards you have installed. It might help if you had some pci slots available: Getting rid of those aluminium brackets covering availabe PCI slots might increase air flow a little - hey, lots of the small tweaks will make a difference :)

Dr.CrackEnHore
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Post by Dr.CrackEnHore » Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:06 am

With the 80mm rad you can cool the cpu to decent temps but it will not handle the northbridge and the video card. With the bigger rad you can put some slow 120's on it and it will be quieter with better performance. Also try dangerden.com, perople seem to be impressed with their work.

The Koolance EXOS is a decent unit. It is $219 without blocks and you would have to replace the stock fans probably.

There is a lot of nice set-ups out there but the prices are high and the cooling performance isn't always as good as you would think.

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:35 am

All right here are the pictures. Forgive the placement of the power cables for I recently redid the wiring when I examined and altered the fans. I have not had time to clean up the power wiring, though granted it is mostly out of the way where the path of air actually travels. Also the wires above the CPU clear it by more then half a foot.

http://athirne.demihost.com/DCP_0250.jpg

The two fan inlets to the right (in front of the hard drives) are two 80 mm fans going at top speed (which isn’t that much). They are normally the only inlet fans. The other 80 mm fan next to the cpu has been tried both as an inlet and outlet fan. I am thinking the main problem is heat removal actually.

http://athirne.demihost.com/DCP_0251.jpg

Anyways here are the add on cards from top to bottom. Radeon 9800 PRO (gift from a friend for building a computer), TV/PVR card, 802.11b card ($10 rebate), Revolution 7.1 (10% off), then the USB 2.0 insert (motherboard was free from Intel while the CPU was 10% off). I have to re-do the placement of the cards too but again I am going to avoid taking another dive into that thing until necessary.

Now that I look at this picture I can see one or two things I could do. Wow, Antec gives you twice as many power cables as you need.

HearNoEvil
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Post by HearNoEvil » Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:39 am

cwestpha wrote:I have to re-do the placement of the cards too but again I am going to avoid taking another dive into that thing until necessary.
Well, you could try to make the top PCI slot empty - that will give some more air to your GPU.

Also, it looks like all your fans are sitting quite close together, which might be the reason for you having enough air throughput, but not enough fresh air circulation. Have you tried doing some temp messuring with your case open and comparing them with the temp of your case when closed? Just an idea...

You might also want to keep in mind that during summer the room temps are not exactly with you - I'm being boiled in my room as I type: 26 degrees :(

jamoore9
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Post by jamoore9 » Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:24 pm

Something is hinky in there. Especially if you've got a dual-fan PSU and an exhaust fan. That's REALLY hot for the P4. Are you sure that the heatsink is installed correctly? IE, that you've got good contact on the heatsink and plenty of well-applied grease? That just sounds too hot to even be a ventilation problem.

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Mon Jun 30, 2003 3:58 pm

>Well, you could try to make the top PCI slot empty - that will give some more air to your GPU.
That is done already. It has one empty space/slot between the AGP card and the next PCI card. It is a rule I have to at least leave one empty slot between a video card and the closest PCI card.

>Also, it looks like all your fans are sitting quite close together, which might be the reason for you having enough air throughput, but not >enough fresh air circulation. Have you tried doing some temp messuring with your case open and comparing them with the temp of your >case when closed? Just an idea...
Measurements are up top (high load 57 c and with case open ~47 c as for in case temperatures it is vary much notably hotter with the case closed when I open it). FYI the case fan and the PSU are supposed to exhaust heat. They are about on level with where the largest amounts of heat from the CPU will come from.

>You might also want to keep in mind that during summer the room temps are not exactly with you - I'm being boiled in my room as I type: >26 degrees
That’s why I like AC. I keep my room at a nice 23 c (or what ever 74 F is in Celsius).


>Something is hinky in there. Especially if you've got a dual-fan PSU and an exhaust fan.
I thought so too but when I remove the side panel after having it reach max load after a while a huge amount of hot air escapes from inside the case.

>That's REALLY hot for the P4. Are you sure that the heatsink is installed correctly? IE, that you've got good contact on the heatsink and >plenty of well-applied grease?
Actually I ran out of Ceramique on the last system I built so I was forced to use the included thermal compound from Intel. However I used the whole thing and made sure the heat spreader was evenly coated by a thing layer. I am reasonably sure that there is good contact going on. Then again my new shipment of my fave thermal compound is coming in a few days (a large syringe of it for under $2 each) so I use a bit of alcohol to remove the old stuff and use the high quality compound.

>That just sounds too hot to even be a ventilation problem.
I wish it was that simple.

HearNoEvil
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Post by HearNoEvil » Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:34 pm

OK, maybe your setup is completely correct and fine - let's just assume that for a moment.

Maybe you have a faulty piece of hardware? Have you tried changing the CPU or your CPU cooler? Perhaps put in another gfx card? Are your hard drives too warm to touch? Is your CPU overclocked by a mistake? What places in your computer can you touch without setting yourself ablaze?

I think the only way for you to solve this is to go through your components one by one and try to change them. Build up your computer from a bare minimum and start from there. It's going to be a pain, but that's all I can think of.

Sorry for not realising you had already done the temp messures with and without a closed case. :oops:

DonP
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Post by DonP » Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:51 pm

Judging from your pics you might want to try and mount a second 80mm rear fan.

I've got a PC-60, and the rear panel of the PC-6070 looks similar, so you may like to try this mod:

http://www.virtual-hideout.net/articles ... print.html

Two things you should _definately_ do to improve your rear fan airflow is replace the rear fan grille on the inside with a wire grille, and cut out the rear panel fan grille and replace that too with a wire grille - this simple mod dropped my temps and dropped noise too (no sharp edges on the grille).
Try also using anti-vibration mounts for your rear fan - the rear panel is quite large and only attached by the rear thumbscrews and therefore prone to vibration.

Anyway, check out this thread about my airflow antics in the PC-60.

DonP.

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:26 pm

>OK, maybe your setup is completely correct and fine - let's just assume that for a moment.
Ok

>Maybe you have a faulty piece of hardware? Have you tried changing the CPU or your CPU cooler? Perhaps put in another gfx card? Are your >hard drives too warm to touch? Is your CPU overclocked by a mistake? What places in your computer can you touch without setting yourself >ablaze?
If it was a faulty piece of hardware heads would roll. I don’t have any other cooler that can take a 3 Ghz P4 with 800 mhz FSB half decently laying around. I have some ones for B step Pentium 4s (up to 2.8 ghz) but I don’t want to risk using one of those on something it is not rated to handle.
Well I suppose I could try to place in my old GeForce 2. Most likely I will wait for that till I get my new thermal compound and make sure that is not the problem. As I said Intel gives you barely enough compound to do anything with, one mistake and the core is not covered. I would like to be optimistic and say that I got all of it in there, but then again I am used to placing on a slightly liberal amount of thermal compound then touch up any over flow after the fact (better to be safe then sorry).
I can touch everything but the DDR on my Radeon without almost getting burnt. Though I do have a 200 GB Western Digital SE drive. That gives off a nice amount of heat.
As for the over clocked by mistake… I am using an high end Intel board I got for free. If anything it is under clocked. ^.~

>I think the only way for you to solve this is to go through your components one by one and try to change them. Build up your computer >from a bare minimum and start from there. It's going to be a pain, but that's all I can think of.
Me too. But still I am holding out till my thermal compound comes over so I only have to make one big dive into that clutter instead of a couple minor ones.

>Sorry for not realising you had already done the temp messures with and without a closed case.
Actually I didn’t realize it myself until I looked up at what I already posted. I was looking at the temperatures from the probe Intel has in it’s products (CPU, north bridge, and something else). The numbers looked familiar and I checked to see if I posted them before.

>Judging from your pics you might want to try and mount a second 80mm rear fan.
*curses to himself*
You know that is on the list of things I did not want to hear. That shall remain at the bottom of my list of things to try.

>I've got a PC-60, and the rear panel of the PC-6070 looks similar, so you may like to try this mod
If I am going to do this then I am going to do it the wrong way… I shall simply place no grills on the back of the case. Better airflow and perhaps a few cuts on my fingers. It will bring me back to the days of my old steel case I replaced this with. Every time I opened the damn thing it cut me.
I wonder if I have anything to cut my case with… *looks around* nope.

>Two things you should _definately_ do to improve your rear fan airflow is replace the rear fan grille on the inside with a wire grille, and cut >out the rear panel fan grille and replace that too with a wire grille - this simple mod dropped my temps and dropped noise too (no sharp >edges on the grille).
I shall do what the site said, I shall try to cut it with a butter knife! ^.^

>Try also using anti-vibration mounts for your rear fan - the rear panel is quite large and only attached by the rear thumbscrews and >therefore prone to vibration.
Fan isolator like thingies came standard with my case. No problem there. As for the thumbscrews I don’t mind that, I hardly get any vibration right now… if I add a second fan though I may have to invest in a few cheap little rubber washers. Hay, it works.

In my next post I shall tell you all about the freaky things they did to how it draws air into the case.

jamoore9
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Post by jamoore9 » Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:15 am

Are you sure that both fans on that PSU are active? When I went to a P4 C processor from a B I had to re-enable the bottom fan on my 2 fan PSU. It just got too hot without the extra flow. I know its a long shot...

I can see from the picks that one problem is that 9800 Pro. Its so long and those IDE cables run so close to it that it almost acts as a duct to prevent air from passing from the bottom to the top of the case. So I fully agree with whoever it was that suggested a duct and opening up one of those 5.25 bays in order to get fresh air to the CPU and PSU - you're halfway there with the 9800 anyway. You still would have the case fans to cool the bottom of the case; as for the GPU, I would suggest the Zalman heatpipe cooler with a big 92mm fan at 7v. That would get plenty of air moving in that neighborhood and would remain quiet. With the duct you wouldn't need to worry too much about recirculating hot air, particularly with 2 intake fans.

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Post by miker » Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:40 am

Do the temps drop when you remove the side cover of the PC?

That may at least tell us if you have an airflow problem.

DavidG
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Post by DavidG » Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:29 am

You said this was your new system. You think it is the video card that is causing the excess heat. If you still have it, why not put in your old video card. See what the temps are like at full load then. That would eliminate at least one unknown.

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:15 pm

>Are you sure that both fans on that PSU are active?
*removes the wire cover and sticks his finger in to each of the two PSU fans. Places them back on and shows you the cuts.*
Blood and pain do not lie.

>When I went to a P4 C processor from a B I had to re-enable the bottom fan on my 2 fan PSU.
Both PSU fans are currently going around at about 1500 RPM. Granted this is in a room with the AC going and the side panel removed.

>I can see from the picks that one problem is that 9800 Pro.
The bloody DDR is running at over 40 c (I took its temperature) with no heat spreader or anything… and that is PER chip. You have 4 of those chips in close proximity to the CPU and north bridge. I would call that a problem.

>So I fully agree with whoever it was that suggested a duct and opening up one of those 5.25 bays in order to get fresh air to the CPU and >PSU
This I may try some time. The duct though is a little questionable what do you guys have in mind?

>as for the GPU, I would suggest the Zalman heatpipe cooler with a big 92mm fan at 7v
I don’t see how that would help to much. The problem is with heat dissipation and how the heat given off by the back 4 BGA DDR modules are in such proximity to the critical components. I am starting to think water cooling again is the only real solution. If I am going to spend that much money I may as well spend 50 bucks more and go all out.

>Do the temps drop when you remove the side cover of the PC?
And I do quote:
“Under heavy load I get a CPU temp of about 57 C with a fan speed of over 5,000 RPM (when the side panel is off it runs about 45 C).”
And again
“Measurements are up top (high load 57 c and with case open ~47 c as for in case temperatures it is vary much notably hotter with the case closed when I open it)”

I posted that information twice before. IMethinks I shall edit my original post and underline it or make it red so people start seeing it. (sorry but this gets a bit old after the first time and I don’t want a third)

>That may at least tell us if you have an airflow problem.
This fact has been assumed and concluded at day 1.
[mini_rant]Sorry to be so rude or sound so ungrateful, but I just don’t like it when people don’t actually read the whole problem along with the information I have already concluded and attached with it. The only worst time is when I am talking to tech support and they run me through things I did before.
Being as someone who has been in computer repair and support classes in which the teacher just directed all problems to me I think I at least know how to power cycle my cable modem. *glares at Comcast* [/mini_rant]

>You said this was your new system.
New case, CPU, motherboard, GPU (well actually it’s a VPU), sound card, and DVD drive. I hope to add a new CD burner to the list soon too. ^.^

>You think it is the video card that is causing the excess heat.
When the hottest thing in your case is a large card with hot chips that are that close to the CPU… yah. At least I hope so…

>If you still have it, why not put in your old video card.
*notes to self to never reply to a tech support post after midnight*
Quote from prior response:
“Well I suppose I could try to place in my old GeForce 2. Most likely I will wait for that till I get my new thermal compound and make sure that is not the problem.”

Basically I am waiting for more of the non cheap *** thermal compound Intel gave me so I can give the CPU a nice amount of high quality compound. Having already redone the system twice to try a few things (like reversing fans) it was my decision to wait till I have to go into the beast again.

>That would eliminate at least one unknown.
That’s the plan! ^.^

Freaky things Lian Li did code named PC-6070:
Today’s specimen class is the PC-6070 from Lian Li. This is sold as an enthusiast case for those who want a quite working environment. Let us go back in out textbooks and look at the picture DCP_0251.jpg for refrence. Let us note the front bezel. As you can see it has a full length door (which can be removed) and as such can not allow cool air to come in for the intake fans which are positioned in front of the hard drives. Please note that you can see a tiny piece of filter in the picture behind the fans. This helps keep it a bit less dusty inside and also will soften the noise a bit. Now let us look at the front feet for the last.
To their left you see some thumb screws. These actually hold a small filter for the intake vent. That is right it sucks cool air from the floor into the case. Now I have removed that flimsy filter like device and have just the holder there. My next goal is to do away with the internal filters and then finally that little holder. Now let us all note that this is truly an interesting placement.
*bell rings*
Well that is all today class, come tomorrow on why never to stick your fingers into a PSU fan while it is on and running.

Ralf Hutter
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Post by Ralf Hutter » Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:48 am

One small suggestion that I'd make so that your posts are clearer and easier to follow would be to use the built-in "quote" system. That would serve to separate your posts from the previous replies and make the thread easier to follow. Example:

jamoore9 wrote:Are you sure that both fans on that PSU are active?
*removes the wire cover and sticks his finger in to each of the two PSU fans. Places them back on and shows you the cuts.*
Blood and pain do not lie.*




I don't know about the other folks here but I find that format easier to follow than the "email style" of quotes/replies that you're using. Just my 2¢. :)

al bundy
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Post by al bundy » Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:58 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:...I don't know about the other folks here but I find that format easier to follow than the "email style" of quotes/replies that you're using. Just my 2¢. :)
Me too.

8)

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Thu Jul 03, 2003 3:56 pm

I respond like this because I have found it usualy makes people actualy read the posts carefuly. If you use the built in quote system people usualy miss something from my experence.

aphonos
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Post by aphonos » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:55 pm

cwestpha wrote:I respond like this because I have found it usualy makes people actualy read the posts carefuly. If you use the built in quote system people usualy miss something from my experence.
I agree with al and Ralf. I miss your posts completely, because it takes me too long to wade through what is new and what is old info. So, I just skip your stuff and read other people's replies to you. I'm just one example of the fact that you will get better feedback if you use the forum's built in quote convention. :)

cwestpha
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Post by cwestpha » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:58 pm

Well the sega is about to continue. After all of this time I have been doing some tweaking, re-cabeling, and going on a few vacations. Now I have my computer running well with only three fans left.
The Zalman CNPS7000-Cu is now on and running at half speed. My CPU temperatures are quite a bit down now and I just leave the side of the case off.
As for my Radeon 9800 PRO I have put a ZM80A-HP on the thing. I decided to use my Ceramique instead of the uncluded thermal paste. Not the easiest thing to install (well the CPU thing was actualy harder because you have to use some preasure and it tries to slide around) but it works. However I have noticed that if I leave it on for a while you can burn yourself on the heatsinks after a few secconds of contact. Also it will artifact slightly. I underclockedclocked it slightly and, while it is still bloody hot, artifacts are almost non-existant now.
All three case fans are now unpluged, I just leave the side of the case open. I have tied up some of the power cords and they are now hidding behind the DVD drive.

Now there is one major problem left... the hard drives. They apear to be giving off a high pitched sound that makes it impossible for me to sleep with at nights. If you look at the prior images I posted then note I moved the hard drives up to the cage with the floppy drive and took out the extra hard drive cage.

jamoore9
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Post by jamoore9 » Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:18 am

Not trying to be insulting or anything, just a simple question. Is it doing anything while it is on at night (like Prime95 or SETI or F@H, etc)? Because if it is not, why not just configure the power profile to shut off the HDD drives after 10 minutes or something like that.

Again, I hope that's not demeaning or patronizing. Just a suggestion.

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