incandescent light bulb ban in ontario...

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AZBrandon
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Post by AZBrandon » Thu May 10, 2007 4:53 pm

Well somebody had mentioned power factor, so I decided to do a little lightbulb shootout to get to the bottom of things. I'll start with the data table.

Image

So the first 4 columns are based on the manufacturer specifications. Two of them did not rate the lumens at all, so they are blank. The next rows are recorded data.

The exposure column indicates how many seconds of exposure was needed to get a normal photo exposure from my dSLR camera with a fixed aperture in a light-sealed closet lit only by the tested light bulb. Thus 10 means 10 second exposure, 2.5 is a 2.5 second exposure, and so on. The shorter the exposure, the more light the bulb produced.

The next 3 columns were a result of plugging in to a standard lamp plugged in to a Kill-A-Watt device and allowed to warm up for at least 2 minutes before taking readings. Oh yeah, the exposure times were after a 2-minute warm-up too.

The findings of interest to me are as follows:

1) All the CFL's except for 1 used less wattage than they are rated for, which is kind of good for your electric bill, since that's based on wattage. A 60-watt incandescent bulb drew exactly 60 watts, but most all the CFL's drew between 1 and 3 watts less than they were rated for. The 65-watt megalight drew a full 12 watts less than it was rated for.

2) Regardless of the lumens output, CFL's do not make as much "real" light as incandescent bulbs. I have observed this just by the naked eye that a 14-watt CFL rated at 850 lumens still didn't appear as bright as a 60-watt standard light bulb rated at a mere 630 lumens. Sure enough, the 60-watt bulb required only a 2 second exposure and the 850 lumen CFL needed a 2.5 second exposure to match it, indicating less measured light. They traditionally say that CFL's produce 4x as much light per watt as incandecents, but I've believed it is more like 3x as much light. It took a 20w rated (19w observed) CFL to get the same exposure as a 60-watt incandescent, so I think the 3x generalization is more realistic.

3) The power factors on most CFL's is horrible. They ranged from a worst of 0.48 for one of the 4-watt bulbs to no better than 0.62 on the best of the normal CFL's. While only wattage goes against your power bill, your power company has to produce VA worth of power, not watts, so the Eiko 4U20 for example, although it draws just 19 watts, it drew 30 VA, which means it only represents a 50% power savings at the generating station, not the 67% savings from your power bill.

4) Two of the CFL's had almost perfect power factor correction, those two being the two highest wattage rated bulbs, rated at 27 and 65 watts respectively, although consuming 24 and 53 watts measured. Both had almost perfect PFC, meaning the 27 watt rated CFL pulling 24 VA actually requires about the same amount of power to be generated at the generation station as the 14-watt rated CFL pulling 23VA. From an environmentalist standpoint, a single 27 watter would definitely be a smarter choice than two 14 watters, for example.

In conclusion, I was glad to see that there's at least a couple CFL's already on the market with fantastic PFC or whatever it takes to show a 0.99 power factor. I expect that as PF is regulated more closely, we'll see more and more applicances and lighting with this trait. At least we know it's already possible with currently marketed bulbs.

DryFire
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Post by DryFire » Thu May 10, 2007 5:29 pm

Perhaps we are lucky that most utility companies don't bill residences if their power factor goes a bit askew.

However, if mass use of something with a PF of ~.5 (without correction) was required they better have a law that requires at least a decent PFC.

Also, how are CFL's effected by ROHS? I'd think the mercury would be a concern, but I'm only semi-familiar with it.

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Incandescents produce 50% more mercury

Post by NeilBlanchard » Sun May 20, 2007 3:43 am

Greetings,

On a recent NPR Science Friday radio show {MP3 of the segment}, I learned that Incandescents produce 50% more mercury than do CFL's, over the life of the CFL's, due to a majority of electricity being produced by coal!. Also, the amount of mercury used in a typical CFL has been reduced to 4-5mg (about the size of the ball on a ball-point pen) and might be able to be reduced further.

The best argument for using CFL's is that by recycling the CFL bulbs, we can control the mercury -- while burning the coal spews all of the mercury out into the atmosphere where it does the most damage.

So, look for the CFL recycling -- they may have them right in the stores where you buy them? Also, the length of time to decide to leave a CFL turned on, or to turn it off -- is about 10 minutes. If you'll need it again in less than 10 minutes, leave it on; and if it will be longer than 10 minutes until you need it again, turn it off.
Last edited by NeilBlanchard on Tue May 22, 2007 4:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Beyonder » Mon May 21, 2007 5:27 pm

AZBrandon wrote:Well somebody had mentioned power factor, so I decided to do a little lightbulb shootout to get to the bottom of things. I'll start with the data table.
Wow. Very nice info. :)

Quick suggestion: could you mark in the table which bulbs are CFL and which are incandescent? I'm guessing you have one 60w incandescent in there, but I can't quite tell.

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Post by Natronomonas » Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 pm

Some reasons why CFLs sometimes appear dimmer than incandescent are outlined in this pdf:

http://web.aanet.com.au/aanet/SDOC0857.pdf

It's a reproduction from ReNew, an Australian sustainability magazine I subscribe to; basically, the average CFL is often placed in a light fitting not designed for the way they output light (mostly from the sides, versus equidistant/end for incandescent) so they look dimmer in certain situations. Once CFLs are mandated I guess the new light fittings would begin to be optimized for this, but until then, it's something to bear in mind.

I've just replaced my last incandescent with warm CFLs, (still slightly less yellow than incand, and I like it like that) - you just have to avoid the cool CFLs, they can be, well, not cool, just blue.

edit: when I said reasons they might appear dimmer, I wasn't trying to belittle AZBrandon's research: I believe the 3x factor to be about correct; I normally replace say a 60w incand with 15-20W CF. I was more just highlighting other reasons that lead to reduced light output from CFL.

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Post by alleycat » Tue May 22, 2007 12:14 am

Well I'm not happy about the idea of being forced to use CFLs. I just hate the type of light they produce. I can tell instantly when I walk into a room when CFLs are being used, even if the light is indirect or shaded. I've tried the daylight/warm white types and I hate them all. It's hard to describe, but I find this type of lighting harsh or "sharp". Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive to this, but I know others feel the same way (kind of like noisy computers - some people care, some don't).

I live in a small apartment and use only two 25W incandescents at night, so I feel offended that our brain-dead government wants to control yet another intimate aspect of my life. When I look around I see so much shocking consumerism and waste, yet governments continue to come up with these "clever" little schemes to make them look like they're doing something. I would prefer to see cars banned, actually - imagine the outcry! Believe it or not, there are bigger problems than light bulbs.

Right now I'm looking out my window and see an entire office building lit up, but there's nobody there, they've gone home for the night. I'm sure the aircon is still operating as well. Check out how much energy heating and cooling uses, for example.

</rant>

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Post by Beyonder » Tue May 22, 2007 9:57 am

alleycat wrote:I would prefer to see cars banned, actually - imagine the outcry! Believe it or not, there are bigger problems than light bulbs.
Logistically, that's probably not feasible. Assuming it were, the plan would probably entail decades of migration away from automotive transportation. People aren't going to willingly part with some of the obvious benefits car ownership entails.

I'd also add that the energy used in the average home can be responsible for more than twice the greenhouse gas emissions of the average car. (no idea how energystar.gov arrived at this conclusion, but I'm assuming it's not completely bunk) How much of a role light bulbs play in that is debatable, but....you have to start somewhere.

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Post by AZBrandon » Tue May 22, 2007 12:41 pm

Beyonder wrote:Quick suggestion: could you mark in the table which bulbs are CFL and which are incandescent? I'm guessing you have one 60w incandescent in there, but I can't quite tell.
Oh sorry... the GE Reveal 60 is the only incandescent. The megalight is really a CFL - you'll notice it produces about 4 times as much light as the GE based on camera exposure time being 1/4 as long. It's a physically huge bulb though. It's not really practical for much of anything, unfortunately.

AZBrandon
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Post by AZBrandon » Tue May 22, 2007 12:48 pm

Natronomonas wrote:edit: when I said reasons they might appear dimmer, I wasn't trying to belittle AZBrandon's research: I believe the 3x factor to be about correct; I normally replace say a 60w incand with 15-20W CF. I was more just highlighting other reasons that lead to reduced light output from CFL.
No offense taken, it was just my own observations and testing. I'm not sure how to change the fixtures to alter the light output though; it's almost like the design of the CFL's would have to be different since of course round tubes mean that a bunch of the light is just shining back on itself. For reference, here's a photo of the megalight in the closet I did all the testing in.

Image

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Post by alleycat » Tue May 22, 2007 6:10 pm

Beyonder wrote:Logistically, that's probably not feasible. Assuming it were, the plan would probably entail decades of migration away from automotive transportation. People aren't going to willingly part with some of the obvious benefits car ownership entails.
Glad to see someone took the bait! A Goldfishy no less! Sorry, couldn't help myself...

I don't think it's feasible either, but it is something I would prefer, despite my awareness of car ownership's almost sacred status. You quite rightly pointed out that people won't willingly change - an attitude that will repeatedly come up when discussing consumption reduction. Unfortunately, for environmental and economic reasons, we will in the near future be forced to radically rethink the way we live our lives.

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Post by jhhoffma » Wed May 23, 2007 8:18 am

alleycat wrote:I don't think it's feasible either, but it is something I would prefer, despite my awareness of car ownership's almost sacred status. You quite rightly pointed out that people won't willingly change - an attitude that will repeatedly come up when discussing consumption reduction. Unfortunately, for environmental and economic reasons, we will in the near future be forced to radically rethink the way we live our lives.
The answer, of course, is tubes. :lol:

Think Futurama...

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Post by jaganath » Wed May 23, 2007 9:15 am

alleycat wrote:Unfortunately, for environmental and economic reasons, we will in the near future be forced to radically rethink the way we live our lives.
environmental I get (ie climate change) but economic? do you think there is a recession/depression on the way? if so,why? (no Day After Tomorrow type handwaving allowed).

AZBrandon
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Post by AZBrandon » Wed May 23, 2007 9:54 am

Well cheap oil is running out extremely quickly. Although many folks continue to claim the world has enough oil for another 120 years, that neglects to mention that oil gets geometrically more expensive to extract as the supplies diminish and the oil available is heavy, sour oil, or worse yet, slop like tar sands and shale.

As all the cheap oil runs out, the price of oil just keeps going up and up. I expect that within 20 years at most either consumption will have to have pulled back or oil prices will be above $200/bbl in 2007 dollars. No politician or environmentalist gets to control how much cheap oil is left on Earth, that's something that will happen all on its own.

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Post by DryFire » Wed May 23, 2007 11:01 am

It costs about $45 to $55 dollars to extract a barrel of oil from oil shale and with oil trading at $60+ it may become viable in the near future.

IIRC there is more oil shale in the united states then there is easily accessible oil in the middle east (by an order of magnitude or so). At least that's the estimate from a few years ago when oil was starting to creep into the $50/barrel range.

Wikipedia says there are 2,602,469 barrels from oil shale in North America; I don't think we'll be running out any time soon.

If there is a demand for "green" products it will be met. We just need to ween people of SUV's.

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Post by jaganath » Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 am

cheap oil is running out extremely quickly.
I would rephrase this as "cheap oil in places that don't have crazy Islamic fundamentalists/Chavez/Putin in charge is running out".
I expect that within 20 years at most either consumption will have to have pulled back or oil prices will be above $200/bbl in 2007 dollars.
one has to be careful with the "oil to $200/bbl" predictions, after all Limits to Growth made much the same arguments over 30 years ago and it is only recently that oil has made new highs in real terms.
IIRC there is more oil shale in the united states then there is easily accessible oil in the middle east (by an order of magnitude or so).
that's not really comparing apples to apples though. I'm sure if you upped the price to what it would cost to extract all that oil shale, you could get similar amounts out of the Middle East.
Wikipedia says there are 2,602,469 barrels from oil shale in North America; I don't think we'll be running out any time soon.
If it was indeed 2,602,469 barrels you would be in big trouble; that is (eight times) less than a single day of US consumption.

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Post by alleycat » Wed May 23, 2007 7:46 pm

jaganath wrote:do you think there is a recession/depression on the way? if so,why?
Yes I do, and the US will probably be hit hardest, although it's not going to be good news for anyone. I think that inflation is getting out of control. There are plenty of commentaries on this all over the net, but I can see this unfolding from my own observations of price movements alone.

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Post by DryFire » Wed May 23, 2007 8:10 pm

jaganath wrote:
Wikipedia says there are 2,602,469 barrels from oil shale in North America; I don't think we'll be running out any time soon.
If it was indeed 2,602,469 barrels you would be in big trouble; that is (eight times) less than a single day of US consumption.
You are very correct. I'm off by a factor of 10^6. So the estimate is 2.6x10^12 barrels, or 2.6 Terra barrels in North America alone.

The point is not compare apples to apples, but to show oil is not running out, nor does the united states have to rely on foreign oil. The main issue is oil shale extraction plants are a rather large investment, there is no guarantee that oil will stay at prices this high or that the initial investment would be recuperated.

If the current price of oil is affordable then oil shale is as well.

One way to solve this issue would be to subsidize such plants, but I think the current political climate would prefer a "greener" approach (like subsidizing solar panels).

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Post by Natronomonas » Sun May 27, 2007 9:48 pm

Of course, a higher oil price encourages the proliferation of alternative fuels or technology (such as electric cars), thus the oil shale producers aren't just competing against traditional oil, but also all the other techs that start to become competitive at the higher price points.

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Post by mr. poopyhead » Mon May 28, 2007 5:11 am

just the fact that people are looking to squeeze oil out of rocks and sand is a good indication that the supply of cheaply produced, free-flowing oil is running low despite OPEC's assurances of the contrary...

DryFire
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Post by DryFire » Mon May 28, 2007 1:17 pm

Not necessarily, they just realized there is a massive demand and they can get away with charging more (that and a lot of US refineries are still out of order).

Scarcity doesn't have to be tied directly to price.

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Post by jaganath » Mon May 28, 2007 1:59 pm

Scarcity doesn't have to be tied directly to price.
the price mechanism rations scarce resources most effectively (econ 101) so what do you mean by this?

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