New cool 'n silent rig, in need of further advice

[Perja]

Hi there! I just stumbled across this site, which could potentially be exactly what I am looking for, being a noise-allergic person and all that. I'm not a man for introductions so I'll bite straight away:

I have come to the point where I absolutely need a new PC because the old one simply does not cut it anymore. The last time I bought one was back in 2004 so I reckon none of the current components would prove to be transferable. (P4 prescott s775, 512mb DDR, 6600gs etc.)

I have been looking at quite alot of tests and similar from various sites to determine which components I would be looking for. The budget is not really set, but I am not the one spending $500 on a 2% performance increase to give an indication. The thing is that I really want the PC to be deadsilent, while at the same time being somewhat cool inside.

The components I am looking at is:

- Chassis: Antec Performance One P193
- PSU: Corsair HX850 850W Modular
- Motherboard: Asus Rampage II GENE mATX
- CPU: Intel i7-920 2.66Ghz
- Memory: 6GB 1600Mhz anything really, any ideas?
- GPU: Sapphire Radeon HD 5870 1GB Vapor-X
- SSD: Intel X-25M 80GB 2nd Generation
- HDDs: 3x Western Digital Green 1,5 TB (Raid 5)

The main area of use would be video editing and heavy gaming. I am looking at getting Gulftown when prices are decent as well, hence 920 over 860 when it comes to CPU. I probably won't overclock alot, so assume some minor CPU overclocking only when accounting for temperatures.

So question would be, in terms of silence and cooling, is there any components sticking out as generally noisy in this system? If so, which ones and which replacements should eventually be brought in place?

Another thing I am completely uncertain about is additional "expanded" components that reduces noise and temperature. I literally have no idea what to buy or even look at when it comes to this.

I am sorry if I left anything unclear, if so.. Don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers.

[Parappaman]

With such GPU and CPU power, 3 hard drives, the amount (and size) of fans the P193 has and that power supply you can't get anywhere close to silent...

[maalitehdas]

I agree with parappaman, such a performance can't be built dead silent. However, you have your needs for the efficiency - so the best help you can get from SPCR forums is how to make it as quiet as possible. In general, systems that idles with <50W and use at max 200W can be built dead silent.

Your biggest noise source is the GPU. If you can cut it to HD5750 with passive cooling, that would do a lot. Otherwise you need to live with that or do like someone else: viewtopic.php?t=56837

About CPU. i7 could use a better heatsink. Scythe Orochi and Scythe Ninja's are good. Make sure you find one with proper mounting system to your motherboard and one that fits into your case.

About MB: ASUS makes boards that generate more heat compared to similar boards from some other manufacturers. However, ASUS boards have pretty good heatsinks so they are quite easy to keep cool. The problem is that the heat must be exhausted, and that means faster case fan speeds with ASUS. Think about it and compare tests between motherboards.

About HDD's. They make annoying noise in a systems that are otherways quiet. You don't need to worry about their noise levels since your system will not be that quiet, and i suppose your OS will be running in your silent SDD anyway.

About case: Your selection is good. Easy to modify, easy to set fans in different locations andeasy to cover extra exhaust holes. A lot of possibilities is good when you test where your system needs more cooling and where less is enough. Tha stock fans included with P193 are not as silent as they could be, but they are not bad either.

About PSU: I have no experience about Corsair, i'm using Seasonic. They are all a bit noisy but CPU cooling and GPU cooling are a way more important issues.

[Perja]

I probably exaggerated slightly about my noise allergic. Fact is, my old PC ran on the following cooling setup:

- 2x Jetart 3,5'' HDD fans HCA01 (5000rpm)
- 2x Top Motor 80mm fans (31dBa, 2600rpm)
- 1x Intel Pentium 4 "Prescott"-stock fan (~50dBa, lotsa RPM).
- 1x 80mm outtake "raidmaxstorm847"-fan.
- 1x 120mm intake "raidmaxstorm847"-fan.

I don't mind taking notice that there is actually a PC beneath me, I reckon it's more a case of me not wanting the PC to be the major sound output whenever I've got my headset / speakers on.

The GPU-fan mentioned seems ace, albeit probably abit time consuming to mount so I'll probably check it out. I definitively never ever will touch a CPU stock fan ever again after the two disasters I've had up to date so any of those Scythe-solutions seems cool.

About HDDs, would some "Scythe Quiet Drive(s)" reduce the noise to near dead-silent" when it comes to my harddrives or is that just wishful thinking from Scythe's side? I've read SPCR's review on the 2,5'' one, which led to me getting the thought in the first place, but is this somewhat similar for the 3,5'' or what?

I liked the thought of "as close to deadsilent as possible".

PS: I'm sorry not being able to provide any links, but I swear, it's the forums.

[Parappaman]

OMG, that's some noisy stuff you got!
Well, then the new one WILL be much quieter than the old. QuietDrives are not that important if you are using a high-end computer, they're only useful to make an already silent PC even quieter. Also, the mounting system in the P193 already reduces humming noise and the like.

A few little recommendations for quieter components.
For the case you are buying, a natural choice is the Antec CP-850. Cheaper and quieter than the one you're getting.
Scythe Mugen for a cost-effective yet quiet CPU cooler, or get a Prolimatech Megahalems if you have some cash spare.
The Vapor-X is pretty much the quietest 5870 available, so no other options for such a high power GPU.
Case is a big question mark. Do you really need the size and amount of airflow of the P193? You might be better off a P183: it's plenty big for your setup. Even a P180 Mini is!

[Meato]

I'll second the P183/CP-850 recommendation. (~$250)

Also, you should look at Silverstone Fortress 2 or Raven 2 paired with a Seasonic M12D-750/850. (~$375)

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article971-page7.html

[ces]

Other than the GPU, what about the CPU cooler.

I didn't notice a mention about that, and it seems to me that it would be the second priority after the GPU cooler.

[Perja]

Ok, I'm fine with a Antec P183, didn't like the P180 Mini or Silverstone ones, though I liked the Seasonic PSUs (probably my taste). My concern causing me to choose the P193 in the first place was the length of a 5870, but I reckon a removal of the upper HDD bay would not only improve airflow but also give enough room for a 5870 in this case. Anyway, I need some advice from people owning or having knowledge about these products:

- Would a Noctua NH-D14 fit into this case without removing the door at the side? Is it as good as it sounds to me? From what I've gathered of information it's up among there with the best solutions. Extraordinary quiet and awesome cooling performance. Pricetag is stiff, but on the other side; money can be easily acquired, new ears not so much. How does it do compared to say Prolimatech Megahalems?

- Is there any point in buying a Vapor-X when I'm replacing the cooling on it with a Arctic Cooling Accelero Twin Turbo Pro-solution? How bad is a Vapor-X 5870 by default anyway? Is it bearable or would it be the noisemaker in such setup? I've also considered downgrading as I'm not particularily experienced in modding GPUs.

- Do I need another two fans in the P183 to give it a decent airflow or is it good enough as it is? If so, which 120mm (?) fans would be recommended that would provide enough airflow while being quiet to some degree? I was thinking Fractal Design, but I'm not quite sure. Should I replace the included fans (25dbA@low) or are they fine?

- I've got a fan controller already, is this possible to mount in the P183? I don't quite know how it is with the door any everything. Is there, say, 1.5cm between the 5,25 bays and the door (knots on the controller) or is it close to even ejecting optical drives when slammed back in place?

- Is there any need for special cooling solutions for other components at all or is this particularily for overclockers etc.? (RAM, MB etc)

EDIT: Oh, and I also still need some RAM recommendations as I have literally no idea what is good and what is not? ECC/not ECC, bus speed, latency, clockings, all this is pretty unknown to me. I find RAM the hardest component to get a real opinion on what I need. I found some RAM (HyperX 2000Mhz 3x2GB Large Heatsink), but with me thinking CPU-like I'm not sure that's how it's determined. Wouldn't the so-called heatsinks interfere with the CPU cooler eventually? Halp me.

[danimal]

lose the p193, the giant fan hole in the side of the case is a path for noise, and it restricts the height of the cpu cooler that can be used... i'm guessing that the p183 should fit the big noctua, it fits my mugen 2 fine... i would take the noctua over the pm you listed, because the pm doesn't come with a fan, right?

if you want a miniatx mb, check the pricing on the msi x58m, i have one, and it's a solid overclocker, look at the anandtech comparison between it and the asus... the downside to the x58m is that the vrms don't have heatsinks, so extreme overclocking might require additional cooling in that area... i have a 120mm fan mounted vertically, blowing on the vrms, but i'm overclocked at 4.1-4.2 ghz on my i7 920.

ram... the combo of mine that i listed above won't accomodate ram sticks with heatsinks that are taller than the top of the ram, because with the x58m motherboard, the giant mugen 2 hangs over one or two of the memory slots... i run ocz ram, because it's the cheapest... i overclock it, but if you run stock speeds, there is no need for ram cooling fans with any brand... there typically isn't much to be gained with overclocking ram, it's the cpu that you want to overclock.

the cp-850 should be cheaper than the silverstone in your country?

[OddSilence]

Maybe someone can help you better RAM-wise, but I think I can advise you about a few aspects:

Perja wrote:

Oh, and I also still need some RAM recommendations as I have literally no idea what is good and what is not? ECC/not ECC, (...)

About ECC, what is better is with ECC, but you don't have that option (last time i checked current intel based consumer chipsets/cpus didn't support it, last one was EX38...).
At least for sure your chosen motherboard doesn't.

From ASUS website, in "Rampage II GENE" specifications:

6 x DIMM, Max. 24 GB, DDR3 2000(O.C.)/1800(O.C.)/1600(O.C.)/1333/1066 Non-ECC,Un-buffered Memory
(...)
**Due to Intel spec definition, DIMMs of DDR3-1333 or above are out of spec

So I think you should get NonECC 1066 modules. And if I were you I would now, or later (but before DDR3 goes away..), when you see price is best, get more than 6GB ram (9 for example), even if i had to sacrifice a bit on other component to be able to afford it.
What I mean is, I think 6GB is a bit low comparing to the rest of the system you want, so with that you may be limiting the useful-lifetime of your system, like you seem to have had with your previous system:

(P4 prescott s775, 512mb DDR, 6600gs etc.)

I think 512MB limited that system's life and usability very much, with more RAM and it would still be a usable computer... (Edit: without those horrible ultra noisy fans of course! )

Since this is a silence-themed forum, I can't avoid saying that I agree with maalitehdas about the GraphicsCard... And i add that with that you would spend less money too now and could update it a few years from now with other (ex.: 7750...) and maybe still save money...

[maalitehdas]

Using accelero in any graphic card is always a GREAT idea. Another manufacturer is selling 5000-series GPU's with their own twin-fan cooling, and according to one test i've read it's a lot quieter than vapor-x system. Vapor-X also have their patent for less heat generation, so buying a vapor-x and changing cooling to twin cooler would propably be the best available solution for those high end GPU's. After that the noisiest part will be your PSU...

I also recommend a ninja-heatsink for your CPU, their ball-bearing fans are very good and silence in both horizontal and vertical mount. Mine started already with 2V power in horizontal mount (model SY1225SL 12L). Now it's laying on my desk waiting for next job...

[Perja]

I've changed my mind a little. I'm going for a "Vapor-X" 5770, only one "WD15EARS"-hdd and maybe different Memory and Motherboard. I reckon I could just expand if needed. I don't have a fire need for a 5870 per sè, and I need a "budget" GPU for another PC in a couple of months, so I can live with a 5770. It's not like it's only marginally better than a 7600GS, right?  ;)

Probably a stupid, potentially obvious question, but anyway:

- Would me getting a mATX motherboard be a stupid idea when the chassis support bigger size motherboards? Would I get an ATX board that does the same for a lower pricetag? If so, any recommendations?

Also, I have been looking at some fans for both the chassis and maybe the Noctua heatsink and I am currently considering some Nexus fans, but being a dork when it comes to fans, I would have to ask:

- Some fans are listed with (for instance) 1200rpm only, while some are listed as 500-2000 rpm. From what I (think) I understand the latter ones can be controlled by the motherboard, whereas the former will blow at same speed endlessly unless there is a fan-controller. Am I even to some degree correct, or have I completely misunderstood?

@OddSilence: Does that mean any >1066 RAM is basically useless for my motherboard or that they would run at 1066 speed? I wasn't aware of the whole motherboard compatibility at all, so cheers for bringing that up.

Giving a small summary I'm thinking something like this for whole setup: 

- Antec Performance One P183.
- Antec CP-850 850W.
- ASUS Rampage II GENE mATX.
- Intel Core i7-920 2.66 GHz S1366.
- Noctua CPU Cooler NH-D14.
- 6GB of DDR3 Memory, suggestions?
- Sapphire Radeon HD 5770 "Vapor-X".
- Intel X-25M 80GB SSD Drive.
- WD Green 1,5TB SATA II HDD
- 2-4x Nexus 120mm 500-2000rpm. 

Any thoughts?

[outbackyak]

There's a good and very thorough article about DDR 3 speeds and memory scaling at Anandtech http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=3589 . From your gaming point of view it does appear that there are some advantages to higher speed ram with tight latencies, mainly in getting somewhat increased minimum frame rates, but you have to balance that out against the hugely higher prices for really fast ram.

Average frame rate improvements improved up to 7% by increasing bandwidth and reducing latencies but we never noticed the difference when actually playing the game. However, we noticed minimum frame rates improving up to 14% as we increased bandwidth and reduced latencies. This is an important fact as minimum frame rates are a better indicator of performance than averages in most cases. In our particular benches, the improved minimum frame rates took Dawn of War II from being a stutter fest in heavy action sequences to relatively smooth when moving from 1066 C7 to 1333/1600 C6.

For most users the article concludes there are few real world benefits to buying ram faster than 1066 C7:

Looking at it from a budget viewpoint, is it worth paying 225% more for a DDR3-2000 C8 6GB kit over a DDR3-1066 C7 kit for an average performance improvement of 5% across a wide range of today’s most popular applications?

For a significant portion of users who run at stock or near stock speeds with system stability being paramount, we think not. For these users we suggest a DDR3-1066 C7 kit like the one we used from Patriot that has the capability of performing at 1066 C5 with a small bump in voltage and that can reach DDR3-1600 C9 (an excellent comprise setting due to pricing changes this past week) at warranty and system friendly voltages.

Regarding the CPU cooler, there's a review here on SPCR of the Noctua NH-D14 http://www.silentpcreview.com/Noctua_NH-D14 . It does get an excellent review, slightly outperforming the Megahalems, but the fans are not as quiet as they might be, and it actually performed better and was much quieter when the stock fans were replaced with two Nexus 120mm fans. Whether it is worth paying the considerably higher price of the Noctua (plus replacement fans) over a Megahalems is up to you - either would be more than adequate for your needs, and either will fit in a P183 or P193.

Cheers!

[danimal]

From your gaming point of view it does appear that there are some advantages to higher speed ram with tight latencies, mainly in getting somewhat increased minimum frame rates, but you have to balance that out against the hugely higher prices for really fast ram.

that article made it clear that not all games respond the same... with far cry 2:

"Average frame rates are up an astounding (had to make it interesting) 1% utilizing 1200 C5 over 2000 C8 while minimum frame rates improve by a ground shattering 0% when moving from 1200 C5 to 2000 C8 in single card results. In SLI operation, average frame rates improve by a familiar 1% as we crank up memory speed while minimum frame rates are 1% better when using 1200 C5 compared to 2000 C8. Obviously, the impact on actual game performance was nonexistent with any of our memory choices."

building a computer is all about what your specific intended useage will be.

[Perja]

I've kinda changed my mind around a little (again), but I reckon its the last time. Anyway, to get the cooling sorted, I'm looking at something like this:

- Prolimatech Megahalems heatsink (CPU)
- 2x Nexus 120mm PWM Silent 500-2000RPM (15,5dBA+).
- 4x Nexus 120mm Real Silent 1200RPM (22dBA).
- Arctic Cooling Twin Turbo PRO (XFX 5870).

The four 1200RPM fans will be ran in a fan controller and adjusted accordingly depinding on how much cooling is adequate in order to maintain a smooth temperature inside the chassis.

I chose the PWM fans because I've heard they adjust themselves to try maintaining the CPU at a certain temperature. I'm probably running it at 3.8GHz or something so it will be vert much needed.

Anyway, question is whether this is overkill or not?

[JamieG]

You will probably need a PWM splitter if you want 2 x CPU fans on PWM control, as otherwise these fans may spin at different rpms.

You might do better with a dedicated fan controller to allow you to tweak fan rpms individually. I plan on adding a Scythe Kaze Server in semi-auto mode to my P182 when I rebuilding it with an i7 system of some flavour (X58/P55 not quite decided yet), so you might want to look at that as an option.

As for fans, Nexus fans have a sleeve bearing, which make them less than ideal for horizontal mounting like in the top exhaust of a P18x series case.

I'd go for the following case fan arrangement: front middle intake and rear exhaust as Nexus Real Silents, top exhaust as Scythe S-Flex E 1200rpm + 2 x reasonable speed CPU fans - 1200rpm to 1600rpm which run undervolted most of the time, but have enough headroom to deal with a highly OC'd i7 920.

For this purpose, I'd consider 2 x Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1450rpm (or even 1850rpm - although be wary about the high noise potential of last suggestion) or 2 x Scythe S-Flex F 1600rpm or possibly 2 x S-Flex E 1200 (although this last suggestion may not quite have enough grunt). When idling, they should be pretty quiet.

I don't OC my systems, so I can't give you any specific advice as to what exact fan speeds you will need.

With an SSD and a WD Green in the lower HDD cage, you won't need an intake fan in there, especially with the CP850's fan nearby.

Since you have an ATX case, you should be able to find an ATX X58 mobo for cheaper than the Asus mATX board you're looking at.

[PlanetOfTheApes]

Prolima on an open stand i7 920 4Ghz @ 1.36v, prime95, 22 C ambient

2x800rpm : 80 C
2x1200rpm : 75 C
2x1600rpm : 72.5 C

These results seem to suggest that running fans above 1200rpm is pointless, you'll just be generating more noise.

Here's the link

review

My experience with the Nexus PWM is that they're a touch noisier at idle/low speed than the Real Silent. Make more of a ticking sound.

My CP-850 fan was noisier at idle than the SPCR review suggests. I may have been unlucky with this one. But more troubling was the minor random coil whine.

[Rucker]

Prolima on an open stand i7 920 4Ghz @ 1.36v, prime95, 22 C ambient

2x800rpm : 80 C
2x1200rpm : 75 C
2x1600rpm : 72.5 C

These results seem to suggest that running fans above 1200rpm is pointless, you'll just be generating more noise.

I did a similar test with my i920/Megahalems setup at 3.3GHz and 3.8GHz. My results, although much cooler than yours, showed the same relationship between fan speeds and temperatures. I also compared push only to push/pull fan setups that demonstrated the same lack of superior cooling for the latter.

[PlanetOfTheApes]

I chose the PWM fans because I've heard they adjust themselves to try maintaining the CPU at a certain temperature. I'm probably running it at 3.8GHz or something so it will be vert much needed.

I normally ran my cpu fan at a constant low speed since I don't o/c. But I'm pretty sure my mobo supports cpu fan speed control with either PWM or regular fans. The cpu fan type option is in the bios. Auto and manual cpu fan settings are provided. Manual settings are via Gigabyte's Windows software only.

Or are PWM fans required specifically for dual fan setup (i.e. with splitter)?

[Perja]

Ok, just to let you all get a look at it before I start ordering all the components (monday) for it:

Chassis: Antec Performance One P183 Midi-Tower
PSU: Antec CP-850 CTX Series 850W 
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R ATX S1366
CPU: Intel Core i7-920 2.66 GHz S1366.
-- Cooler: Noctua NH-D14 CPU Cooler 19,8dBA       
Memory: Corsair XMS3 DDR3 1333Mhz 6GB CL9.
GPU: XFX Radeon HD 5870 GDDR5 1024MB 865Mhz "XT".
-- Cooler: Arctic Cooling Twin Turbo Pro GPU Cooler
HDD 1: Intel X-25M 80GB SSD 2nd Generation.
HDD 2: WD Green 1,5TB HDD 64MB 7200RPM.
HDD 3: WD Green 1,5TB HDD 64MB 7200RPM.
OS: Windows 7 Home Premium OEM.
Fans: Noctua NF-S12B FLX 1200rpm 18dBA (x3)
Topfan: Scythe SFF21E 1200RPM 20,1dBA.

Choices made out of several tips and tricks that I've gotten from various forums across the internet. I'm going for a NH-D14 and just checking how noisy it really is with stock fans. I just want a final confirmation from you guys before I order so some feedback like "looking good" would be ace.

Thanks.

[Flanker]

i wonder if an accelero S1 R2, with a 12CM fan zip tied on it would give you better cooling performance and lower noise?

[PlanetOfTheApes]

Fans: Noctua NF-S12B FLX 1200rpm 18dBA (x3)
Topfan: Scythe SFF21E 1200RPM 20,1dBA.

That's odd, why mix case fans? Vertical or horizontal orientation won't affect Noctua's noise character.

I'm not sure but the CP-850 may have a history of coil whine, I'd do a google search. Don't understand why electrical noise issues aren't highlighted more often.

Otherwise "looking good".

[ces]

If you take a look at reviews that compare the NH-D14 to the Prolimatech, the Prolimatech is often near and sometimes better than the NH-D14.

The NH-D14 is clearly better if you are doing heavy overclocking and have a lot of heat to throw off, but even then the Prolimatech is no slouch... and the NH-D14 really calls out for high output (loud) fans.

If you are into doing that kind of overclockcing, you probably wouldn't be here.

Take a look at the Prolimatech coupled with an Akasa Apache PWM fan. It runs something like 500 - 1200 rpms. It is believed to be manufactured in the same plant as the Noctua. It has a number of design cues that are similar, including the same plastic with the same unique fragrance.

It's sort of like a Noctua PWM fan. And the strangely shaped fan blades general a lot more pressure than the Noctuas.

If you are using it as PWM, most of the time it will be running at a silent 500rpm. If you need the colling, it has plenty of power to spare. One Apache fan and the Prolimatech will cool within a few degrees of the NH-D14 most likely, with less noise most likely, and in some instances may even keep things cooler.

[ces]

The GA-X58A-UD3R has 6G Sata.

Can you boot off the 6G Sata?

If you can, wait a 2 weeks for the new crucial SSD. It uses 6G Sata and even with 3G Sata it is substantially faster than the Intel SSD. And it has a five year warranty.

Even their current 3G SSD is faster than Intel. They are likely to steal Intel's mantel as the reference benchmark in this field for the next 18 months when Intel will make their next performance boost.

[PlanetOfTheApes]

Take a look at the Prolimatech coupled with an Akasa Apache PWM fan. It runs something like 500 - 1200 rpms. It is believed to be manufactured in the same plant as the Noctua.

I wonder if that's the same plant where they manufactured my wobbly Noctua fan.

Prolima might be the rational choice in this case, but it's all about image and bragging rights, right?. Hey Prolima, where's my Mega Shadow on steroids.

[PlanetOfTheApes]

It's sort of like a Noctua PWM fan. And the strangely shaped fan blades general a lot more pressure than the Noctuas.

If you are using it as PWM, most of the time it will be running at a silent 500rpm. If you need the colling, it has plenty of power to spare. One Apache fan and the Prolimatech will cool within a few degrees of the NH-D14 most likely, with less noise most likely, and in some instances may even keep things cooler.

Wow that sounds like the perfect cpu fan, high pressure and low noise, I think we have a winner here. I insist SPCR review this fan immediately. After all, I'd only buy a SPCR recommended fan, as they're the only guys I trust when it comes to fan noise.

[PlanetOfTheApes]

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R ATX S1366

I don't think this mobo is designed for significant OCing. Board/chipset temps might go through the roof. Have you looked into it?

[Perja]

I dont see the Crucial SSD becoming available over here anytime in forseeable future and importing is basically double price. Either way I reckon I could just move the Intel SSD over in my HTPC if I'm wrong.

As for the fans some guy tipsed me that Noctua fans was basically the same quality as Nexus with somewhat lower noise level, so I assumed the tip I got over applied to those as well. Either way I get 25% off Noctua products so thats no problem at all. That explains my choice of heatsink as well. I could just replace the NH-D14 fans if its too noisy.

And regardless of anything I'm about €400 below my intended budget so changes being made a some later stage isn't unlikely.

The motherboard is decent for clocking and I'm not really looking at running my i7 at 4.4ghz so I don't think it will matter that much. I changed the ASUS board because of reports of it getting -really- hot (NB@81c) when overclocking. 3.6-3.8 will do -just fine- for me so I dont think it matters that much.