Low Power MB/CPU combo for a small HTPC/NAS ?

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galgo
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Low Power MB/CPU combo for a small HTPC/NAS ?

Post by galgo » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:13 am

Greetings,
My HTPC is currently built around ASUS M2NPV-VM (onboard GF 6100)+ AMD Athlon X2 4450e (45W).
It's housed inside a compact ENERMAX LAGUNA (mATX/Low profile) with Scythe BIG SHURIKEN as the CPU cooler and the main intake fan.
HD is WD Green 1TB.

This PC is working pretty much 24/7 and used to play Movies (usually <720P) as well as the NAS/Torrent downloader.
Sometimes for light encoding and general computing under W7 - but nothing fancy (the current HW is already capable for most of the tasks).


I'd like to upgrade to a bit more efficient CPU/MB combo but still utilize most of the current HW such as the HD, Case, CPU Cooler, DDR2 RAM etc...

If possible - VGA out as well as decent quality 6ch audio output (analog) and gigabit Ethernet will be appreciated.

Can you recommend a decent, yet cost effective solution?
Even ref. or eBay items are o.k..
ITX as well as mATX are suitable.

Gal

maalitehdas
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Post by maalitehdas » Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:51 am

Zotac has some nice and quiet boards like DualCore D510 + NVidia 2.gen. ION (with upgrade kit) + wlan n

galgo
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Post by galgo » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:26 am

Thank you - I'll check...
Any specific recommendation? I'm looking for a good price/benefit ratio - ain't the new nVidia ION2 a bit too expensive at the moment?
WLAN is not really required - Gigabit Ethernet is !
DDR2 and good sound are also beneficial to me...
What about solutions based on CORE i3/i5 ?

My current system performances is almost o.k. so no need for something much better - just better efficiency and a little more on Video and Sound quality...
Gal

maalitehdas
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Post by maalitehdas » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:57 am

The most cost effective upgrade to boost performance in your systtem might be just a better graphic card. Radeon HD5XXX series are in good prices and I suppose you have your PCI Express x16 slot free there. However, you told
I'd like to upgrade to a bit more efficient CPU/MB combo
i3-530 is a nice combo, more performance than ION boards (and more power -> more heat, so it's not as quiet). For purpose you told
This PC is working pretty much 24/7 and used to play Movies (usually <720P) as well as the NAS/Torrent downloader.
Sometimes for light encoding and general computing under W7 - but nothing fancy (the current HW is already capable for most of the tasks).
i'd like to propose a low power board with integrated HD graphics. This?
http://www.zotacusa.com/zotac-ionitx-k- ... board.html

ilovejedd
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Post by ilovejedd » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:57 am

Is there any particular reason you're wanting to change motherboards (e.g. missing features or faster encoding performance) or is it just that you think your current power consumption is too high? If it's the latter, don't bother. I highly doubt the savings in power consumption is enough to make up for the cost of a new board.

maalitehdas
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Post by maalitehdas » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:20 am

I highly doubt the savings in power consumption is enough to make up for the cost of a new board.
Let's take an 80W idle computer (quite normal) and use it 24/7 for a year.
24h*365*80W=700800Wh=700,8kWh
700kW*12¢/kWh~80$
Putting that much to reach 40W system pays back in 2 years in electricity. If it's possible to benefit in performance for almost free (maybe even gain), why not?

(12¢/kWh is an average price in US. Price gap is from 7¢ in North Dakota to 26¢ in Hawaii.)

ilovejedd
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Post by ilovejedd » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:51 pm

maalitehdas wrote:Putting that much to reach 40W system pays back in 2 years in electricity. If it's possible to benefit in performance for almost free (maybe even gain), why not?
None of the Atom boards are an upgrade. At best, they're a sidegrade, and most likely, they'll be a downgrade. As for power consumption, 80W may be typical but unless the OP actually measures it with a Kill-A-Watt or something, it's just going to be a guess. He's already using a low-power CPU. I don't think the GeForce 6100 uses too much power, either. Assuming he's using an 80 Plus PSU and only one HDD, I'd actually estimate idle power consumption for his current PC to be around 50W.

Best bet for both higher performance and low idle power is an H57/H55 motherboard paired with a Core i3-530/540. Unfortunately, he won't be able to re-use his DDR2 RAM. The price is also a barrier as upgrading to that would probably cost $250 (MB/CPU/RAM).

galgo
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Post by galgo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:39 am

Hello again guys,
I took some time to rethink the matter and "calibrate" my priorities and budget.
The current setup is indeed already pretty efficient with only minor mods and settings (PSU is the original 300W SFX unit) - it ideals at around 45W and doesn't go above 90W even when stressed.
BTW - the gf6100 GPU is integrated as part of the MB nv430 chipset - so it is a low powered IGP.

The upgrade should give me the following:
1) more video processing power - especially for 1080P with some post processing - current HW struggles with it

2) low ideal power consumption - when the PC is active as file sharing/uTorrent machine.

3) Preferably better sound quality output (5.1) and Audio decoding ability to hookup my DIY amplifier (analog out).

The allocated budget is around $200-$250 for the CPU/MB/GPU (+ 2GB RAM if DDR2 can't be used).

I have a laptop SATA HD I can utilize as the system drive if it'll help taking few W off (the WD GREEN will still be used as the storage device).

So - any suggestions for the above?
Is there a decent ATOM/ION combo that will be stronger yet more efficient than the current HW?
Or would a basic CORE i3/i5 be preferable?
How about upgrading only the MB to a newer AMD chipset (i.e. 785/790G) and stay with the low power CPU and the rest of the HW?

Thank you again/
Gal

HFat
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Post by HFat » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:19 am

You will not get much lower power consumption than you have now if you want a powerful machine.
I don't know if there are Atom systems which can play all 1080p content comfortably because I have no interest in playing that kind of content. A display that can take advantage of such a resolution might consume more power than the PC actually. But the D510MO was able to pull it off in SPCR's test and the D525MW is a bit faster. These (or an Ion) would make a great desktop for most people. The old D945GSEJT + hardware decoder fared even better in SPCR's test actually and consumes less power too. That would be great if all you wanted to do was to play videos. But it sounds like you want a powerful PC which kind of rules Atom out, especially single-cores.
Ion 2 sounds like it's got other issues than price by the way.

I think you need to rethink your approach. You apparently want a powerful desktop and a low-power server. It's tough to have both in the same package but there's no reason they should be the same computer. The most suitable OS for the server is not likely to be the most suitable for the desktop anyway and separation brings security benefits as well.
So consider spending your upgrade money on a small server that consumes a fraction of what your desktop consumes. If you are willing to shut down your desktop when you're not using it, you'll save more power than you could possibly save by trimming the power consumption of your desktop. If your desktop doesn't have a standby/hibernation mode and takes too long to boot, perhaps the best desktop upgrade for you might be a drive that enables your OS to load significantly faster.

Another conceivable solution would be to get a D945GSEJT + decoder and use it as a server as well as to watch movies while you use your regular PC for desktop duties. This would be kind of expensive however, especially since you'd need some kind of KVM switch as well.

galgo
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Post by galgo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:41 am

Thank you for the reply,
I understand I won't get a significantly lower power consumption (nice to have thou) - but at least don't want to get a higher... (especially when ideal) - I don't expect the electricity savings to cover the cost - it's more of "green" ideal for me :)
I don't really need a "powerful desktop" - it's used only as an HTPC mainly to play movies/music, download content and light surfing - not much gaming etc...
I believe something with around 50-100% better video processing power is more than sufficient for me - probably not that hard to achieve considering the weak CPU and outdated IGP I currently have.
Still have to serve me for the next ~3yrs until the next upgrade so a bit of future proof/overpowered would be nice.

I did consider two other alternatives:
1) Buy a low powered/single drive NAS to handle downloads and file storage - so the main HTPC won't have to be turned On all the time - I'd still need to upgrade the HTPC to get better performances so the total budget would be too high.

2) Adding a discrete low profile/ low power GPU (and perhaps audio card) while compensating for the extra power consumption utilizing a laptop HD as system drive and perhaps a better PSU (i.e. Pico PSU style).

But these doesn't seem to be much better than upgrading the htpc CORE.
I also already have somewhere to donate the "old" MB/CPU combo so it's not a big loss...

So - any other insights?
- try to target the $200-$250 range...
Gal

HFat
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Post by HFat » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:01 am

galgo wrote:I don't really need a "powerful desktop" - it's used only as an HTPC mainly to play movies/music, download content and light surfing - not much gaming etc...
With these requirements, I'd pick an Atom but the thing is that they're less powerful than your "weak CPU" and not by a small margin. So I don't know what your performance problem is. A 4450e is way overpowered for this kind of usage. The bottleneck may be elsewhere (software?). I don't know what problem you're having with your 1080p content but a hardware video decoder (rather than a gaming-oriented GPU) would maybe help.

A fanless Atom system including a case, a drive and so on could easily cost you less than $250.

EDIT: how much power can you possibly save by replacing a green WD? The PSU is a more likely cause of wastage.

galgo
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Post by galgo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:59 am

HFat wrote:EDIT: how much power can you possibly save by replacing a green WD? The PSU is a more likely cause of wastage.
I'd still use the WD green - only with an additional 2.5" HD as the system/temp drive - this way the WD Green may stay longer in low power/parked mode instead of spinning routinely - this is just an idea - I'm not sure it'll be such a big deal either...

Replacing the current PSU won't be easy due to the rare shape factor - a PicoPSU variant might cost well above 100$ (with it's power brick) and may not decrease the ideal power significantly while still leave me with the current HW performances...

How about upgrading only the MB with a newer nVidia IGP or one of AMD's 7XX variants?
Will give some HW decoding ability and better performances - which one is considered low powered? any recommended model?
Gal

HFat
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Post by HFat » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:40 am

It would be useful if you could determine what PSU you have. Maybe you won't find independent measurements of its efficiency but you might be able estimate how much power it wastes based on its specifications. If it has a 70% efficiency when your computer is idle, I figure an 85% efficient PSU would save you about 9 watts at idle and probably more in your average usage.
There are shops selling picos + brick for a good bit less than 100$.
You might also be able to reuse a power brick you already own or buy a used one, especially with the picos that accept a wide range of voltages (I never tried one). Gaming laptops have high-powered bricks for instance and the bricks are liable to outlive the laptops.
But that assumes you have a moderate peak power draw. Do you know how high yours is?

re: hardware decoder
I don't have any experience with them. But see this: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1022-page2.html Pretty impressive, isn't it? But it might not work with every video compression that's in use out there.
At this point it would seem a good idea to try to determine what exactly is causing your performance problem. Is it certain types of compression? Is it a hardware or software setting? Or do you have software running in the background that brings your throughput way down? It could be something entierly different of course...
By the way, how is 1080p over VGA working out for you? Be careful when replacing hardware because some combinations might produce bad results.

Rebellious
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Post by Rebellious » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:11 am

A few days ago Asus posted new BIOS for this mobo that allows Phenom II and Athlon II CPUs. I think you'd be hard pressed to improve on this mobo.

galgo
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Post by galgo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:35 am

Hi - thank you for the good advices :)
My HTPC case is an Enermax LAGUNA that comes with a generic 300W TFX PSU:
http://www.enermax.com/home.php?fn=eng/ ... 1=24&no=48

I only measured the power draw at the wall with the above configuration (Win7 32bit) when Ideal =around 45W and at Max. load around 90W .
I don't know what the efficiency is but probably nothing especially good (I'm sure it would be mentioned if it was an especially good PSU unit).

So it means I'll need a good >100W power brick which I don't ... (strongest I have is a 90W DELL unit).

Regarding performance issues - The CPU power is generally more than enough for my use - however it does struggle with software encoding of HiDef materials especially if I want to utilize any post processing filters etc...
I'm using VLC or MPC-HC players with ffdshow codecs (tried COREAVC in the past w/o much improvements).

I believe the main bottle-neck is the lack of decent HW decoding ability of the outdated IGP - so a newer chip-set or a dedicated decoder card might do the trick.

I'm also unsatisfied with the integrated audio codec abilities - but that another story (external DAC will cost more).

I'm not using the analog VGA for 1080P but the DVI (into HDMI connector) and it's o.k. I guess...

So - It seems like these are my options:
1) a modern ATOM board (dual core) with ION/ION2 or a dedicated Decoder card.
2) A better AM2 MB with a newer IGP - such as AMD's 7** series or with nVidia 9*** IGP's
3) Add a discrete low power/low profile PCI-E GPU and compensate for the extra power usage with better PSU...

Any specific recommendations?

twitch
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Post by twitch » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:00 pm

You can get a core i3 based cpu/h55 mb for $150 or so on sale that will use under 15W. Link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... hlight=15w

Yep that is 15w.

Now the core i3 is plenty for 1080p hd video and hd audio bitstreaming via hdmi and light gaming. If you want video encoding medium gaming consider sandy bridge supposedly coming in a few months.

Keep in mind apple's mac mini (c2d) can idle at 8-11watts. So don't give up on your quest to get a powerful low wattage machine that will be quiet.

EDIT: the core i3 has a gpu built on the cpu. This will do dxva hw video decoding. No need for a discrete.

fractal
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Re:

Post by fractal » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:04 pm

galgo wrote:The current setup is indeed already pretty efficient with only minor mods and settings (PSU is the original 300W SFX unit) - it ideals at around 45W and doesn't go above 90W even when stressed.
BTW - the gf6100 GPU is integrated as part of the MB nv430 chipset - so it is a low powered IGP.

The upgrade should give me the following:
1) more video processing power - especially for 1080P with some post processing - current HW struggles with it

2) low ideal power consumption - when the PC is active as file sharing/uTorrent machine.

3) Preferably better sound quality output (5.1) and Audio decoding ability to hookup my DIY amplifier (analog out).
I just put the kill-a-watt on an asus m2a with be2300 and get the same power consumption you do with a single hard drive so you are in the right ballpark for what you have.

The quick and easy fix is to add a low power video card. Both ati and nvidia make cards that cost under 50 dollars that will offload the video processing, some of which idle at under 10 watts.

If you want to spend more money, an i3/h55 will get you pretty much everything you are asking for with a slight decrease in power. The other opportunities include a more efficient power supply and lower power storage (laptop drive or even better ssd). But, you should be proud of the system you have. 45 watts idle is nothing to sneeze at. You will only knock 10-15 off that by replacing the cpu/motherboard alone but you will get the desired 1080p.

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