Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

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dougz
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Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by dougz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:50 am

Objective: Cheapest upgrade to watch H.264 and WebM/VP8 videos under Linux.

System: Dell 530, Celeron 450 (single-core @ 2.2 GHz), socket 775, 2x1GB DDR2, GMA3100, 1024x768 CRT (capable of higher - don't know limit) running Debian Squeeze and Arch Linux. VLC is preferred media app. Used as daily desktop, not media center.

No issues with non-media performance. System is really not adequate for H.264, VP8, or Quicktime video. OK for low-res Flash, but craps out on high-res. Fine for playing DVDs. Also fine for playing Netflix streaming via Silverlight on dual-booted Vista.

Looking for a low-cost solution, even though it won't be (and currently isn't) silent. Upgrading mobo, CPU, and RAM is not in the budget.

Sorry, but I haven't been keeping up with the state of hardware acceleration of video under Linux and don't know the best path. I think a beefier CPU is indicated. Advice or pointers appreciated.

TIA

andymcca
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by andymcca » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:16 am

Does this motherboard have a [AGP] slot, or a PCIx 16 slot?
[Edit: Wow. It's been so; long I called AGP VGA.]

Do you know what resolution the H.264 video is? 1920x1080?

For LGA775, you could definitely pop a Core 2 Duo in there that could easily handle any 1024x768 decoding.
Upsides:
* Very little setup required.
* No worries about drivers or getting acceleration working.
Downsides:
* It would cost more than a cheap video solution.
* Depending on what sort of HD content you plan on playing, it could see pretty high loads.
* Could use more power and generate more heat than a cheap dedicated video solution.
* Remember to buy thermal paste for the hsf!

Your ram is probably fine in Linux, unless you have noticed that usage is getting high. But my mythtv backend runs for months without a restart on 2GB of ram, and rarely uses swap.
Last edited by andymcca on Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

dougz
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by dougz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:32 pm

andymcca wrote:Does this motherboard have a VGA slot, or a PCIx 16 slot?
Mobo has a VGA out socket, no DVI, HDMI, etc.

Expansion is via:
  • one PCI Express X16
    one PCI Express X1
    two PCI
    no ISA
Do you know what resolution the H.264 video is? 1920x1080?
Nope, looking to view Hulu programming, movie trailers (Quicktime-H.264), Youtube & Vimeo (VP8) and other streaming odds & ends. I would think these would (at least optionally) be available in lower resolutions.

I'm not planning to drive a high definition display, no Blu-Ray, no local 1080I or 1080P content, and would certainly have to add a display card in order to attach a more capable display. Currently limited to 1.5 Mb DSL Internet connectivity for streaming, which requires lower video capabilities than true high speed Internet.
For LGA775, you could definitely pop a Core 2 Duo in there that could easily handle any 1024x768 decoding.
Upsides:
* Very little setup required.
* No worries about drivers or getting acceleration working.
Downsides:
* It would cost more than a cheap video solution.
* Depending on what sort of HD content you plan on playing, it could see pretty high loads.
* Could use more power and generate more heat than a cheap dedicated video solution.
* Remember to buy thermal paste for the hsf!
Current newegg.com cheapest 775 Core 2 Duo is "Intel Core2 Duo E7500 Wolfdale 2.93GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor" at US$125. Not impressive. I'd prefer to put the $125 toward an AMD Socket AM2+/AM3 mobo/CPU/RAM upgrade.

Dell 530 has two different mobo/PSU configs & I don't currently know which I have. Also BIOS updates would affect upgrades, but unless I can use a cheaper dual-core, a socket 775 upgrade doesn't appear to be a promising approach.

What "cheap video solutions" were you thinking about? Roku? Apple TV?
Your ram is probably fine in Linux, unless you have noticed that usage is getting high. But my mythtv backend runs for months without a restart on 2GB of ram, and rarely uses swap.
Never have to hit swap under Linux. Vista is a bit more piggy.

The one thing I can't give up is Linux. A cheaper solution that only runs on Vista would not be nearly as desirable, even though I use Vista for Netflix.

ilovejedd
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by ilovejedd » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:15 pm

You don't really need to upgrade to a Core 2 Duo if you need to replace the CPU with something better. I reckon any of the Core 2-based Celeron or Pentium Wolfdales would suffice. Starts at $50. I actually got a Celeron E3300+Biostar G41 combo from Fry's for $30 a few months back. Now that's cheap.

Newegg - Wolfdale

zoocey
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by zoocey » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:12 am

You could also look into getting a Crystal HD. They seem to sell for around $50 USD

However your media players will have to have support for it.
There is a thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1211546 that may be of help.

andymcca
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by andymcca » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:01 am

dougz wrote:What "cheap video solutions" were you thinking about? Roku? Apple TV?
I just meant a discrete graphics card. Depending on what you are looking for, $40-$80 can get you a card with plenty of 2D acceleration capabilities. But the big downside with these is getting the drivers working, and then getting your software to use the acceleration. VDPAU (nVidia) is supported by some software (MythTV, and I think VLC?), but if you have a favorite player you'd have to double check. Hopefully driver support for Vista would not be a problem. I have no clue about that.
ilovejedd wrote:You don't really need to upgrade to a Core 2 Duo if you need to replace the CPU with something better. I reckon any of the Core 2-based Celeron or Pentium Wolfdales would suffice. Starts at $50. I actually got a Celeron E3300+Biostar G41 combo from Fry's for $30 a few months back. Now that's cheap.

Newegg - Wolfdale
I agree with this as long as encoding time for ripping a DVD collection is not an issue, and the resolution of the video is not insanely high. Also if your software only uses a single thread, then the second core would not do much good :)
But now that I look back at the OP, I agree that a single core solution would work just fine. I agree with your OP that replacing the processor sounds best. It's nice that there are still many options for LGA775! This sounds cheaper and easier than trying to mess with discrete graphics or a whole new motherboard.

On a side note: doesn't the lack of the DRM stack in Moonlight suck? I was using the windows XP on my netbook for netflix until I got the wii disk. Was not fun. This is all M$'s fault for not releasing the stack. :( They even started the Moonlight project, but gimped it because they will not license the stack.

Edit: I think flash added hardware acceleration support in version 10.1, but I'm not sure how well this is supported in linux, and I'm not sure if it can use VDPAU or some other interface. Someone more up-to-date on the state of flashplayer would have to weigh in on that.

Edit2: Also beware the terrible Adobe support for 64bit kernels (as of a few months ago anyway). You may not have been planning on a fresh install, but if you were thinking about installing a 64bit linux OS, be prepared to get a little frustrated when installing flashplayer.

dougz
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by dougz » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:27 am

I appreciate the replies in all of the posts, above. They give me some avenues for research. Additional suggestions welcomed. :D
andymcca wrote:
dougz wrote:What "cheap video solutions" were you thinking about? Roku? Apple TV?
I just meant a discrete graphics card. Depending on what you are looking for, $40-$80 can get you a card with plenty of 2D acceleration capabilities. But the big downside with these is getting the drivers working, and then getting your software to use the acceleration. VDPAU (nVidia) is supported by some software (MythTV, and I think VLC?), but if you have a favorite player you'd have to double check. Hopefully driver support for Vista would not be a problem. I have no clue about that.
Cheap graphics card would be fine and drivers are not difficult. Support in discrete media players can be researched relatively easily.

It gets stickier when you get to browser support for streaming HTML5 video. What plugin gets called on an Apple-type page (H.264) or Google-type page (VP8)? What happens under Firefox or Chrome/Chromium? This appears to add several layers of complexity.

I know I'm not really keeping up with all the driver/player/HTML5 minutia, but it appears to me that one needs to use a brute force CPU solution under Linux, at least for now. I'd really love to be shown how that thesis is wrong.
ilovejedd wrote:You don't really need to upgrade to a Core 2 Duo if you need to replace the CPU with something better. I reckon any of the Core 2-based Celeron or Pentium Wolfdales would suffice. Starts at $50. I actually got a Celeron E3300+Biostar G41 combo from Fry's for $30 a few months back. Now that's cheap.

Newegg - Wolfdale
I agree with this as long as encoding time for ripping a DVD collection is not an issue, and the resolution of the video is not insanely high. Also if your software only uses a single thread, then the second core would not do much good :)
But now that I look back at the OP, I agree that a single core solution would work just fine. I agree with your OP that replacing the processor sounds best. It's nice that there are still many options for LGA775! This sounds cheaper and easier than trying to mess with discrete graphics or a whole new motherboard.

On a side note: doesn't the lack of the DRM stack in Moonlight suck? I was using the windows XP on my netbook for netflix until I got the wii disk. Was not fun. This is all M$'s fault for not releasing the stack. :( They even started the Moonlight project, but gimped it because they will not license the stack.
I'm a bit of a Luddite WTR Moonlight/mono. I belong to the "Miguel is evil" school of thought. I won't install his stuff.

I find that I spend far more time keeping Vista secure, even with the help of Secunia's wonderful PSI 2.0, than I do keeping Debian Testing secure and current. And I only use Vista for Netflix and light browsing related to streaming. I use Debian for everything else. Microsoft products (and presumably clones) have never been secured properly for the Internet, IMHO.
Edit: I think flash added hardware acceleration support in version 10.1, but I'm not sure how well this is supported in linux, and I'm not sure if it can use VDPAU or some other interface. Someone more up-to-date on the state of flashplayer would have to weigh in on that.

Edit2: Also beware the terrible Adobe support for 64bit kernels (as of a few months ago anyway). You may not have been planning on a fresh install, but if you were thinking about installing a 64bit linux OS, be prepared to get a little frustrated when installing flashplayer.
According to http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/:
Hardware acceleration
Deliver smooth, high-quality video with minimal overhead across mobile devices and personal computers using H.264 video decoding.
No help for VP8, or H.264 that's not in a Flash container.

And, according to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=BUIGP:
64-bit users: Download a preview release of Flash Player with native support for 64-bit Linux from Adobe Labs.
I'm not planning to go 64 bit Linux while Flash is still in flux. While I consider Flash to be an insecure, buggy, bloated, inefficient mess, I have to use it.

Another complication is that Chrome/Chromium automatically includes it, but it isn't current. I have Chromium 7.0.517.44 under Debian and the include Flash tests as 10,1,103,19. According to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=BUIGP, Flash 10,1,102,64 is current for Linux.

I don't always agree with Steve Jobs, but "Death to Adobe Flash"! It will be a great day when I can uninstall it.

***

Bottom line: Looks like the best solution is to find an affordable CPU upgrade that will make the box usable for a year or so and then do a bigger upgrade -- mobo/GPU/CPU/RAM when further progress is made on Linux drivers, players, and HTML5 video is better understood.

Right?

dougz
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by dougz » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:05 pm

Thanks for the advice!

I researched the CPUs suggested above and was surprised at how much improvement I could get in a budget upgrade, at least according to http://www.cpubenchmark.net.
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/midlow_range_cpus.html
Celeron 450 @ 2.2 GHz -- 641

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/mid_range_cpus.html
Celeron Dual-Core E3300 @ 2.5 GHz - 1656
Pentium Dual-Core E5400 @ 2.7GHz - 1807
These may be a bit suspect, because the E3400 @ 2.6 GHz is rated at only 1491, but they all still show a big improvement over my current CPU.

Newegg shows both Celerons as having VT support, which is a plus. The Pentium that Newegg sells does not (although there is a version with it).

ilovejedd
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by ilovejedd » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:45 pm

dougz wrote:Newegg shows both Celerons as having VT support, which is a plus. The Pentium that Newegg sells does not (although there is a version with it).
Nah, all current Pentiums should have VT-x support. The older SSPECs of some Pentium E5x00 models didn't have it but anything that's shipping now probably has it already. It's been a year since Intel included VT-x support on all their product lines barring Atom (I reckon we have Windows 7's XP mode to thank for that) and processor turnaround on Newegg is fairly quick.

dougz
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by dougz » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:05 pm

ilovejedd wrote:
dougz wrote:Newegg shows both Celerons as having VT support, which is a plus. The Pentium that Newegg sells does not (although there is a version with it).
Nah, all current Pentiums should have VT-x support. The older SSPECs of some Pentium E5x00 models didn't have it but anything that's shipping now probably has it already. It's been a year since Intel included VT-x support on all their product lines barring Atom (I reckon we have Windows 7's XP mode to thank for that) and processor turnaround on Newegg is fairly quick.
Thank you. Sounds reasonable.

I was a bit surprised that the benchmarks I cited didn't show the Pentium dual as being a bit more powerful than the Celeron. Artifact of the benchmark?

Should I spend a few extra bucks and go for the Pentium? Would the bigger cache (or something else) be worth the $15 or so difference, at least for streaming video?

ilovejedd
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by ilovejedd » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:34 am

dougz wrote:I was a bit surprised that the benchmarks I cited didn't show the Pentium dual as being a bit more powerful than the Celeron. Artifact of the benchmark?

Should I spend a few extra bucks and go for the Pentium? Would the bigger cache (or something else) be worth the $15 or so difference, at least for streaming video?
That benchmark isn't really all that accurate and various things - memory bandwidth, etc - can affect the score. Still, it's an acceptable estimate. As for the cache being worth it, if all you're doing is video streaming then no, it's not really all that useful.

ava__
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by ava__ » Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:38 am

This article on Phoronix might be the info you're looking for:

HD Video Playback With A $20 CPU & $30 GPU On Linux

AFAICT it works only for H264, not sure about WebM status, hopefully being on a rolling distro you'll be able to get it as soon as it comes.

I've been following this topic (video acceleration under Linux status) for some time and it seems like NVidia is your only choice right now (mature drivers, VDPAU API support from major media players), AMD/ATI seems unusable yet under Linux (artifacts, currently working only as a hack through API translation from Xvba to VA-API), new Intel IGPs also could work but they don't sell discrete cards.

ilovejedd
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by ilovejedd » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:37 pm

I'd still recommend a CPU upgrade to, say, a Celeron E3300/E3400 instead of a GPU upgrade. From experience, Wolfdales have very low idle power consumption. I replaced my Celeron 430 1.8 GHz with a Pentium E5200 2.5 GHz and my idle power consumption even dropped a couple of watts. Another advantage of going with a CPU upgrade is you're not reliant on finicky software/drivers for hardware acceleration. Yes, power consumption during video playback will probably be a little bit higher but at least you're not tied down to using certain software since the CPU has enough chops to handle software decoding.

dougz
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by dougz » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:45 pm

Thanks for all of the pointers.

I'm going to upgrade with the E3400 and a budget Nvidia card. The Nvidia won't provide hardware acceleration for everything, but it'll beat the Intel 3100 and allow me to attach a DVI monitor later. (Currently VGA-only.)

One "gotcha" about Nvidia and Linux is Ubuntu and Wayland. Not an issue for me because Ubuntu isn't my distro of choice, but something to be aware of for folks who use Ubuntu or a derivative distro. See "NVIDIA Says It Has No Plans To Support Wayland" at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... &px=ODc2Mg

dougz
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Re: Cheap upgrade for H.264/VP8 under Linux?

Post by dougz » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:25 pm

ava__ wrote:This article on Phoronix might be the info you're looking for:

HD Video Playback With A $20 CPU & $30 GPU On Linux

AFAICT it works only for H264, not sure about WebM status, hopefully being on a rolling distro you'll be able to get it as soon as it comes.
Newegg had a sale on an MSI N84000GS 512 MB card for US$30 (including shipping), I decided to upgrade video first. I'm hoping for a holiday sale on a suitable CPU upgrade.

Installed MSI card under M$ Vista using Vista-supplied driver. No MSI driver update or MSI BIOS update yet. Just the basics.

I was surprised to find that Webm/VP8 appears to be enjoying hardware-assist. Google Chrome 7.x (current) showing Avatar 1080P trailer at youtube-indicated 720P, fullscreen averaging 40-60% CPU on a single-core Celeron 450 @ 2.2 GHz. Sea Turtle VP8 720P similar. Woo hoo! Big improvement.

Got similar results with H.264 videos. Quicktime also appeared to be significantly improved over Intel integrated graphics.

Oddly, Silverlight continued to hit the CPU heavily. I never had a problem with Netflix streaming via Silverlight on Intel integrated graphics (unlike H.264/VP8/Quicktime), but Netflix app is adaptive to your available "video quality." It definitely adapts to network bandwidth & issues but I may also be seeing a bit better video quality now. I'm just not sure, based on a couple minutes of viewing.

Sorry for the lack of scientific benchmarks, but the MSI card was an obvious improvement under Vista. I still need to check for MSI updates to BIOS and drivers to see if there are any more opportunities for improvement.

I'm running it on Debian Squeeze right now but have not downloaded the Nvidia Linux drivers yet. I thought I'd optimize the card setup under Vista first and then see what I get under Linux. FWIW, the same youtube Webm/VP8 Seat Turtle 720P vid runs 77% CPU under Debian with Chromium and no proprietary Nvidia drivers.

Even without the CPU upgrade, these video formats are now usable for me. My 1.5 Mbps DSL download bandwidth is my primary bottleneck.

So, thanks for the suggestion. It appears to have been a cost-effective upgrade.

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