Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

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AuraAllan
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Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:54 am

Hi there.

I'm messing around with a few systems that I want to try out in some cases. Some testing fun :)
All configurations will have only one fan. A 120mm exhaust fan.

I need a HS thats really good for low airflow as it's going to run semi-passive.

The HS will need to fit 1155, 1156, AM2, AM2+ and AM3 atleast.

So whats a good HS for this?

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:16 am

Scythe Orochi
Thermalright HR-1 plus and HR-2
Scythe Ninja

I think that is about it for really good semi-passive heatsinks... designed to be able to run passively if desired.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:16 pm

Thank you for your answer ces.

Unfortunately you mentioned all the HS's I had in mind.

Orochi is just too big.

HR-1 plus and HR+2 seems to have pretty tight fin spacing.

I might have to get myself a Ninja then. Again.
I was stupid enough to sell my first Ninja to my littlebrother.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:35 pm

AuraAllan wrote:HR-1 plus and HR+2 seems to have pretty tight fin spacing.
They don't come much wider. And as counter intuitive as it may seem, the HR-1 plus appears to out perform the larger Ninja. If you are looking to try something new, why not try the thermalright?

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:47 pm

ces wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:HR-1 plus and HR+2 seems to have pretty tight fin spacing.
They don't come much wider. And as counter intuitive as it may seem, the HR-1 plus appears to out perform the larger Ninja. If you are looking to try something new, why not try the thermalright?
Okay. I guess the pictures cheated me regarding the fin spacing.
So do I go for HR-01 Plus or HR-02 ?

Or what about this: http://www.nofencomputer.com/kor/produc ... _cr132.php
Don't know where I can buy it though.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by Fire-Flare » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:48 pm

They won't be effective if the airflow can't penetrate through the entire stack. So you'll want lots of narrow fins spaced far apart, like a venetian blind.

I had a totally passive build once. (Minus the power supply) I fastened an ancient CPU card's cooler (the kind with dozens of sharp fingers reaching upward) to a Pentium III and let it be. Got really hot but didn't fry.

With today's power saving features you might get away with something like that on a low TDP model.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by dhanson865 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:53 pm

AuraAllan wrote:Hi there.

I'm messing around with a few systems that I want to try out in some cases. Some testing fun :)
All configurations will have only one fan. A 120mm exhaust fan.

I need a HS thats really good for low airflow as it's going to run semi-passive.

The HS will need to fit 1155, 1156, AM2, AM2+ and AM3 atleast.

So whats a good HS for this?
Not enough information.

What TDP CPU will you be targeting? 25W, 45W, 65W, 95W, higher?

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:03 pm

Fire-Flare wrote:I had a totally passive build once. (Minus the power supply) I fastened an ancient CPU card's cooler (the kind with dozens of sharp fingers reaching upward) to a Pentium III and let it be. Got really hot but didn't fry.
Sounds interesting. Could you post a picture? I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean.
dhanson865 wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:Hi there.
bla bla bla .... something
Not enough information.

What TDP CPU will you be targeting? 25W, 45W, 65W, 95W, higher?
True. Totally forgot that. Sorry.
Maximum will be 95W but most will probably be below 75W.
I will also be undervolting so I probably won't reach 95W.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by dhanson865 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:08 pm

Here is a quote of a post I made in another thread
Given the new review I thought I'd do a quick price check of the top half of the test results on the temp rise chart. I dumped the ones that were overpriced vs the performance or had mounting issues and came up with this short list. Prices were from a quick google search and include S&H and taxes for my zip code in the US.

Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme Rev.C $66
38 degree rise 790g
Mounts both ways on AMD boards. Editor's Choice, best on SPCR list at end of 2010. Gets a 9.5 on the recommended list.

Noctua NH-U12P $64
39 degree rise 600g without fan / 770g with stock fan
Mounts both ways on AMD boards. Good choice for those that move their PC a lot and are afraid of heavier heatsinks. Gets a 9 on the recommended list.

Scythe Mugen-2 $44
39 degree rise 870g including fan
Mounts with "proper" orientation on AMD boards but only mounts in that one direction. Gets a 9 on the recommended list.

Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus $29 (best bang for the buck)
41 degree rise 626g including fan
Mounts both ways on AMD boards

Again the Cooler Master 212 Plus is light enough for those afraid of heavier heatsinks. Gets a 8.5 on the recommended list because the stock fan throbs but for a SPCR regular this is easy to fix with a fan swap. Grab your favorite 12cm/120mm fan and make it right.


That list was made before the Noctua NH-C14 review and the NH-C14 hasn't been added to the recommended list. Noctua NH-C14 is $90 shipped to my house so it's certainly not a value heatsink but it is the best top down heat sink and it's very flexible for low clearance and high clearance situations.

Best value only makes sense if you do a search based on the price it takes to get it in your hands and that includes retail price + shipping + tax/VAT + any odd fee someone might tack on + real world considerations like driving to a post office or store or whatever you personally might have to get that device in your hand.

It also matters what hardware you have laying around or already in your PC. If you have a stack of high quality fans you might consider the Hyper 212 Plus a good value, if you have crappy fans and need to step up the Mugen-2 might be cheaper for you than buying a Hyper 212 Plus and buying a better fan.

Only you can decide how much a heat sink would cost you given all the possible variables.
If you are going to buy a low TDP CPU you could use any decent HS fanless. I'm using a X3 720 89W TDP cpu with a Gelid Tranquillo and I just turned the CPU fan off a few minutes ago while typing this. CPU temp hasn't rise much from the mid 30s it normally idles at with the fan running around 350RPM. I could easily leave the CPU fan off if I were using a lower TDP chip or if I were willing to undervolt/underclock a little.

If you had the Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme Rev.C it'd work even better than this Tranquillo.

If you want the one with the best fin spacing that's the Noctua NH-U12P. Basically the same fin spacing as a Ninja 3 but much better cooling

Code: Select all

Heatsink                             Fin Spacing
Noctua NH-U12P                       2.63 mm
Scythe Mugen-2                       1.89 mm
Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus         1.54 mm
Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme Rev.C 1.52 mm

Noctua NH-C14                        1.79 mm (horizontal)
dunno how the top down would play out in fanless mode but depending on the orientation in your case it could be a plus for passive cooling.
Last edited by dhanson865 on Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:16 pm

Thank you for the lecture dhanson865 :)

So Noctua NH-U12P > Thermalright HR-02 when running passive?

EDIT: Case will be horizontal so Noctua NH-C14 will not be a good option.
Last edited by AuraAllan on Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by dhanson865 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:23 pm

AuraAllan wrote:Thank you for the lecture dhanson865 :)

So Noctua NH-U12P > Thermalright HR-02 when running passive?
I don't know. I wouldn't consider a >1kg HS anyway. I just don't like that much weight hanging sideways off my motherboard. That thing is 1100g + bracket weight + fan weight(s) if you choose to use fan(s).

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:25 pm

dhanson865 wrote:I don't know. I wouldn't consider a >1kg HS anyway. I just don't like that much weight hanging sideways off my motherboard.
I know but the case is just barely wide enough to fit the NH-U12P so it will have nowhere to go.
I don't move my PC around so I don't think its a problem.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by dhanson865 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:28 pm

AuraAllan wrote:Case will be horizontal so Noctua NH-C14 will not be a good option.
Will you use high airflow case fans? Note high airflow does not equal high noise. This is all about practical CFM.

If no case fan or very low airflow near the HS then at least the horizontal placement allows convection to work with the heat rising up the fins of the HS.

Of course if you are putting a 120mm or larger case fan near the HS then yes I'd go for a tower so the front back airflow would work with the case fan.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:34 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:Case will be horizontal so Noctua NH-C14 will not be a good option.
Will you use high airflow case fans? Note high airflow does not equal high noise. This is all about practical CFM.
If no case fan or very low airflow near the HS then at least the horizontal placement allows convection to work with the heat rising up the fins of the HS.
Of course if you are putting a 120mm or larger case fan near the HS then yes I'd go for a tower so the front back airflow would work with the case fan.
I will run a single 120mm or 140mm in the top cover of the case. Haven't decided on what fan yet.
CPU cooler will be ~10cm (3.9") below the fan.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by dhanson865 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:46 pm

AuraAllan wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:Case will be horizontal so Noctua NH-C14 will not be a good option.
Will you use high airflow case fans? Note high airflow does not equal high noise. This is all about practical CFM.
If no case fan or very low airflow near the HS then at least the horizontal placement allows convection to work with the heat rising up the fins of the HS.
Of course if you are putting a 120mm or larger case fan near the HS then yes I'd go for a tower so the front back airflow would work with the case fan.
I will run a single 120mm or 140mm in the top cover of the case. Haven't decided on what fan yet.
CPU cooler will be ~10cm (3.9") below the fan.
Top cover? is this a HTPC style case or a Antec monster style case with a top fan?

If it's HTPC style pizza box how is a top fan going to help a tower style HS with horizontal fins opposing airflow? Not much synergy there.

You said the Noctua wouldn't fit well, if that is the case then the Cooler Master and Thermalright are even taller so they are out as well. The Mugen-2 is the same height so it's out.

Code: Select all

Heatsink                             Fin Spacing Height of HS
Noctua NH-U12P                       2.63 mm     158mm
Scythe Mugen-2                       1.89 mm     158mm
Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus         1.54 mm     158.5mm
Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme Rev.C 1.52 mm     160.5mm
Thermalright HR-02                               162mm    
Thermalright HR-01 Plus                          159.5mm
Scythe Ninja 3                                   160mm
Scythe OROCHI                                    155mm (top down)
Noctua NH-C14                                    105mm (top down)
The only ones in this thread shorter than the pack is the Orochi and the Noctua NH-C14 (which is significantly shorter) and both the Orochi and NH-C14 are top down HS so they have the same fin orientation.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by dhanson865 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:45 pm

If you are going for low airflow with a top fan exhaust in a pizza box style case I'm thinking you have two options.

1. Pick the tallest tower HS you can and don't worry about fin orientation

2. Pick the tallest HS that has fins that face the thin edge towards the fan and still meets your other needs


For 1 I'd consider

Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme Rev.C 1.52 mm 160.5mm
Noctua NH-U12P 2.63 mm 158mm
Scythe Mugen-2 1.89 mm 158mm (It's really the modern replacement for a Ninja)

and for 2 I'd consider

Noctua NH-C14 105mm (top down)
Noctua NH-C12P 91mm (top down)

Scythe OROCHI 155mm (top down) ( 1,285 grams) may not fit on some motherboards and in some cases

The more I look at the Orochi the less I think it's worth messing with.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by Fire-Flare » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:51 pm

What case will you be using, Allan? We can give better advice if we know its dimensions and layout.

And to answer your question, I found a Pentium III on Ebay using the cooler I was talking about. Mine came with used a tiny black one with a LOUD 60mm fan, I used thermal epoxy to mount this passive cooler on it because I didn't have the proper brackets shown in the image.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0535251860

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:57 am

dhanson865 wrote:Top cover? is this a HTPC style case or a Antec monster style case with a top fan?

If it's HTPC style pizza box how is a top fan going to help a tower style HS with horizontal fins opposing airflow? Not much synergy there.

You said the Noctua wouldn't fit well, if that is the case then the Cooler Master and Thermalright are even taller so they are out as well. The Mugen-2 is the same height so it's out.
The case is a Chieftec silver fox .... something something that I will strip of everything and redo everything but the bottom and backside of the case.

I never said the Noctua wouldn't fit. I said: "the case is just barely wide enough to fit the NH-U12P"
I'm pretty sure i'll go with the NH-U12P
dhanson865 wrote:The more I look at the Orochi the less I think it's worth messing with.
I feel exactly the same about Orochi.
Fire-Flare wrote:What case will you be using, Allan? We can give better advice if we know its dimensions and layout.
The case layout is almost 100% the same as this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/ ... 01side.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/ ... -Scase.jpg

EDIT:
Fire-Flare wrote:And to answer your question, I found a Pentium III on Ebay using the cooler I was talking about. Mine came with used a tiny black one with a LOUD 60mm fan, I used thermal epoxy to mount this passive cooler on it because I didn't have the proper brackets shown in the image.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0535251860
Ah okay. Thats pretty much what I thought you had done. Thank you for the pic.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:26 am

AuraAllan wrote:Or what about this: http://www.nofencomputer.com/kor/produc ... _cr132.php
Don't know where I can buy it though.
Looks interesting but also suspect. I would wait until you see a few reviews... unless dust is a major issue to you. It looks pretty dustproof to me... wires for fins.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:28 am

AuraAllan wrote:Okay. I guess the pictures cheated me regarding the fin spacing.
So do I go for HR-01 Plus or HR-02 ?
MikeC had an unkind remark about the HR-02... but didn't say what the issue was.

The HR-01 Plus has a history of good reviews. Why not just go with it. It is a top tier cooler. You won't be making a mistake.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:34 am

AuraAllan wrote:Case will be horizontal so Noctua NH-C14 will not be a good option.
Why would that matter?

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:39 am

AuraAllan wrote:So whats a good HS for this?
How much height do you have in which to fit the heat sink?

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by Fire-Flare » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:24 pm

Designed for a short stumpy power supply that serves double duty as an exhaust fan? NOT a good candidate for silence. Today's power supplies tend to use temperature to control their fans, additional heat from the system will make it work harder.

Also, the quietest power supplies use large fans on their top or underside, that case won't let one breathe properly.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:18 pm

ces wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:Or what about this: http://www.nofencomputer.com/kor/produc ... _cr132.php
Don't know where I can buy it though.
Looks interesting but also suspect. I would wait until you see a few reviews... unless dust is a major issue to you. It looks pretty dustproof to me... wires for fins.
I agree. Also I think it hangs quite a bit out over the edge of the MB.
ces wrote:MikeC had an unkind remark about the HR-02... but didn't say what the issue was.

The HR-01 Plus has a history of good reviews. Why not just go with it. It is a top tier cooler. You won't be making a mistake.
Unkind remark? I haven't noticed that.
Well the HR-01 Plus is certainly an option. I guess I haven't really payed attention to it because it's an "old" and "small" tower heatsink.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:22 pm

ces wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:Case will be horizontal so Noctua NH-C14 will not be a good option.
Why would that matter?
Wouldn't the fins block the convection "airflow" if the NH-C14 was to be installed in a vertical case?
ces wrote:How much height do you have in which to fit the heat sink?
I'm pretty sure 160mm is absolute max.
Fire-Flare wrote:Designed for a short stumpy power supply that serves double duty as an exhaust fan? NOT a good candidate for silence. Today's power supplies tend to use temperature to control their fans, additional heat from the system will make it work harder.

Also, the quietest power supplies use large fans on their top or underside, that case won't let one breathe properly.
PSU will be Seasonic X-400.

The only fan will be placed in the top cover between the PSU and the front of the case.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:58 pm

AuraAllan wrote:Wouldn't the fins block the convection "airflow" if the NH-C14 was to be installed in a vertical case?
It will work just fine either way. With even slow fans the convection won't count. And you have 160mm of space for it. More than enough.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by dhanson865 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:38 pm

AuraAllan wrote:
ces wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:Case will be horizontal so Noctua NH-C14 will not be a good option.
Why would that matter?
Wouldn't the fins block the convection "airflow" if the NH-C14 was to be installed in a vertical case?
That depends on which way you mount the HS on the CPU. Top down heat sinks with heat pipes are OK to be mounted in 3 of the 4 possible directions. Assuming the mounting kit will let you rotate the HS then you just have to pick one of the 3 acceptable orientations that allows the fins to be oriented how you want without making the end of the heat pipes face down.

"For AMD installs, two metal retention bars are secured to the stock backplate with screws and the C14's spring-loaded bolts attach to them. On AMD boards the heatpipes point to the side so in a typical tower setup the fins run vertically. In this orientation an exhaust fan at the top of the case is more beneficial than at the rear."

"Intel mounting holes being symmetrical, you can turn the cooler so that the heatpipes point toward the bottom or top of the board."

So it sounds like you can't rotate it on AMD motherboards.

I like the Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme Rev.C and Noctua NH-U12P because they tested well on SPCR and they mount in more than one orientation on AMD motherboards.

Keep in mind though if your case isn't optimal the orientation of fins might be a minor issue that is less important than the heat pipes and other factors of the HS.

In a perfect world you'd buy two or three Heatsinks, build and test each one for a week (including testing different orientations per HS) and then give us your results several months from now. Unfortunately that requires time and money so you probably will have to make an educated guess and go for it.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by AuraAllan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:38 am

ces wrote:
AuraAllan wrote:Wouldn't the fins block the convection "airflow" if the NH-C14 was to be installed in a vertical case?
It will work just fine either way. With even slow fans the convection won't count. And you have 160mm of space for it. More than enough.
Okay but I would still prefer a tower style heatsink in this case.
dhanson865 wrote:That depends on which way you mount the HS on the CPU. Top down heat sinks with heat pipes are OK to be mounted in 3 of the 4 possible directions. Assuming the mounting kit will let you rotate the HS then you just have to pick one of the 3 acceptable orientations that allows the fins to be oriented how you want without making the end of the heat pipes face down.

"For AMD installs, two metal retention bars are secured to the stock backplate with screws and the C14's spring-loaded bolts attach to them. On AMD boards the heatpipes point to the side so in a typical tower setup the fins run vertically. In this orientation an exhaust fan at the top of the case is more beneficial than at the rear."

"Intel mounting holes being symmetrical, you can turn the cooler so that the heatpipes point toward the bottom or top of the board."

So it sounds like you can't rotate it on AMD motherboards.

I like the Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme Rev.C and Noctua NH-U12P because they tested well on SPCR and they mount in more than one orientation on AMD motherboards.

Keep in mind though if your case isn't optimal the orientation of fins might be a minor issue that is less important than the heat pipes and other factors of the HS.

In a perfect world you'd buy two or three Heatsinks, build and test each one for a week (including testing different orientations per HS) and then give us your results several months from now. Unfortunately that requires time and money so you probably will have to make an educated guess and go for it.
I'll read the Thermalright UE rev. C and NH-U12P reviews again and then think about it for a while before taking an educated guess.

Thank you for your help so far. :)

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by frenchie » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:00 am

I'd vote for the HR-01 plus.
I have mine on a Q9550 (95W TDP) overclocked to 3.4GHz. Without a fan, the max core temp was 65°C on load (perfectly acceptable for me). The heatsink is about 4 inches from the back exhaust fan (Nexus @9V).
With a fan on the heatsink (120mm Nexus @6V), temps never go over 55°C.

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Re: Whats a really good HS for low airflow? (semi passive)

Post by ces » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:14 am

frenchie wrote:I'd vote for the HR-01 plus.
You just can't make a mistake with the HR-01 Plus. You will get top tier performance out of it without a fan, semi passive, or with two 500 rpm slipstreams on it or with a 12 volt Nexus on it. If you are going to go with a tower, just use it.

If you want to do top down, go with the Noctua. But I think you really need at least one 500 rpm slipstream on it if you are going to take that direction.

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