hi
i've been pondering over how best to build a HTPC. started with the idea of a hush ATX bust they are ridicuolously expensive. i currently have a m10000 as a linux server but am unimpressed with AV performance - so thats a no go.
the requirements are:
PCI slot for a nebula dvb tv tuner
dvd writer (for writing mpg2)
fast enough to downgrade mpg2 streams for dvd archiving
recording to hdd from the nebula
standard mp3/divx affair.
Thing is by silent i MEAN silent - no whizzing 40mm fans etc.
i was considering:
Hoojum 3 case
Pentium M 1.3ghz with PASSSIVE CPU fan (they will bring out a board soon enough apparantly)
slimline DVDR
3.5'' HDD
Thing is that CPU/MB will be expensive at around £200/£200 a piece. So i was considering a mini itx p4 board (~£140) instead.
what would my best option be for CPU cooling? With the P-M i can get away with a soap-on-a-rope PSU (110w) - silent and a passive CPU cooler - silent - meaning i would only have the 80mm PAPST variable fan in the back.
would there be a similar configuration available for p4?
Can i get away with a minitx/p4/dvdr/nebula at 110w?
If so, is there a passive/quiet CPU cooler available for older, quieter p4s?
ta!
j
Whats my best option for a SILENT HTPC?
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
Is there a reason to go small? The Antec Overture is a nice looking case that take a full ATX board. I have my eye on one right now. You have lots of options with full ATX boards. Many don't like the Antec True power supplies but I find them to be very very quiet (to each his own). I have to admit, I am unfamiliar with your nebula card so maybe I'm not much help.
hi
the nebula card http://www.nebula-electronics.com/infor ... ?Code=0001 is one of the best tv tuners you can buy. comes with a 14all remote, DVB, 7 day scheduler, decent quality. basicazlly it just needs a pci slot and a better-than-epia cpu.
the reason i didn't like a full sized atx case:
that requires an atx PSU - meaning at least one more fan.
and size is kinda a consideration, yes. i like the tinyness of a cubit (though would prefer a hi fi sized case, e.g. hush.
do you know if the p4s allow chaging of cpu frequency on the fly, like the epais and P-Ms do? that really would help for when the ssytem is idling (e.g.g not watching/recording tv).
j
the nebula card http://www.nebula-electronics.com/infor ... ?Code=0001 is one of the best tv tuners you can buy. comes with a 14all remote, DVB, 7 day scheduler, decent quality. basicazlly it just needs a pci slot and a better-than-epia cpu.
the reason i didn't like a full sized atx case:
that requires an atx PSU - meaning at least one more fan.
and size is kinda a consideration, yes. i like the tinyness of a cubit (though would prefer a hi fi sized case, e.g. hush.
do you know if the p4s allow chaging of cpu frequency on the fly, like the epais and P-Ms do? that really would help for when the ssytem is idling (e.g.g not watching/recording tv).
j
I don't know if you are familiar with the Athlon 64's "Cool n' Quiet" feature...
Basically, it downgrades the CPU speed when idle as to reduce power consumption and heat dissipation.
Example : a 3000+ A64 would go down to 800mhz when CPU usage is low so heat dissipation is lower.
Performance is similar (I didn't say better than) to a 3.0 or 3.2 Pentium 4 and the price is right if you look at the 3000+ model or 3200+ model.
You could also read this post http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... highlight=
as it talks about that specific feature.
I cannot go into detail here as I don't know all the specifications, but I jut wanted to point out the possibility to you.
As for a case, there's the Antec Overture in the ATX Form factor, the Minuet in mATX and the Coolermaster ATC-6xx cases in mATX.Lian-li makes some also I think there is the 6079 or something like that.
You could also look into the Ahanix DVine HTPC case review Here on SPCR
Hope that helps
Basically, it downgrades the CPU speed when idle as to reduce power consumption and heat dissipation.
Example : a 3000+ A64 would go down to 800mhz when CPU usage is low so heat dissipation is lower.
Performance is similar (I didn't say better than) to a 3.0 or 3.2 Pentium 4 and the price is right if you look at the 3000+ model or 3200+ model.
You could also read this post http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... highlight=
as it talks about that specific feature.
I cannot go into detail here as I don't know all the specifications, but I jut wanted to point out the possibility to you.
As for a case, there's the Antec Overture in the ATX Form factor, the Minuet in mATX and the Coolermaster ATC-6xx cases in mATX.Lian-li makes some also I think there is the 6079 or something like that.
You could also look into the Ahanix DVine HTPC case review Here on SPCR
Hope that helps
I was considering the Commell LV-671MA, Commell MA-ATI, PCI riser card w/ 2PCI cards, Pentium M, full desktop case to accomodate the system, fanless PSU, and suspended HDD. The big question though is, will the PCI cards in riser need a horizontal PCI slot or will they be far enough within the case to use a connection to the verticle PCI slot.
What pentium Mobile board were you considering?
Would you be using onboard graphics?
Will you hook your sound up to specialised audio equipment or use the onboard sound as well?
mini-itx.com offers the new silent P4 system by Hush.
What pentium Mobile board were you considering?
Would you be using onboard graphics?
Will you hook your sound up to specialised audio equipment or use the onboard sound as well?
mini-itx.com offers the new silent P4 system by Hush.
Last edited by Trip on Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Whats my best option for a SILENT HTPC?
The low-voltage Pentium 4-M (as opposed to the Mobile Pentium 4 or Pentium M) is supposed to be pin-compatible with Socket 478, but your BIOS has to support it. The high-end (2.4GHz) P4-M is listed at 35W TDP (Intel's "thermal design power" rating). That's too much for strict passive cooling. A Zalman flower cooler or Heatlane Zen with a well-placed case fan might do the trick, though.
Easier that that would be if you could throw one in a Shuttle ZEN ST62K. It comes with a 180W external brick PSU, and features the "ICE" heatpipe, which lets one 80 x 25 mm* fan do double duty as CPU fan and case fan. The standard fan (which is thermally controlled) is rated at 40dbA, but you could swap in your PAPST without any trouble. It seems that SPCR's own Ralf Hutter just got one, so hopefully he can provide more details about its silencing capability. (For example, does the CPU Vcore adjust really go down to 0.8250V?) I have no idea if the Shuttle BIOS supports the P4-M though. (I imagine it might, since the Radeon 9100 IGP is primarily a mobile chipset.)
*Edit: Oops! Ralf's review says it's an 80 x 15.
Easier that that would be if you could throw one in a Shuttle ZEN ST62K. It comes with a 180W external brick PSU, and features the "ICE" heatpipe, which lets one 80 x 25 mm* fan do double duty as CPU fan and case fan. The standard fan (which is thermally controlled) is rated at 40dbA, but you could swap in your PAPST without any trouble. It seems that SPCR's own Ralf Hutter just got one, so hopefully he can provide more details about its silencing capability. (For example, does the CPU Vcore adjust really go down to 0.8250V?) I have no idea if the Shuttle BIOS supports the P4-M though. (I imagine it might, since the Radeon 9100 IGP is primarily a mobile chipset.)
*Edit: Oops! Ralf's review says it's an 80 x 15.
Last edited by Justin_R on Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the 4-M was supported, would the 4-M CPU run at its correct speed? ie. Commell's LV-670M
jtippell, depending upon what you want to do with your computer a higher power machine like a Pentium M 1.6 400MHz (24.5W), a P4 2.4 800MHz (66.2W), a P4 2.8 800MHz (69.7W), or a P4-M 2.6 400MHz (35W) may be good choices. Processor Electrical Specifications.
Hauppage's WinTV-PVR-350 looks good for an HTPC.
I remember reading that the Hoojum Cubit case has poor airflow.
jtippell, depending upon what you want to do with your computer a higher power machine like a Pentium M 1.6 400MHz (24.5W), a P4 2.4 800MHz (66.2W), a P4 2.8 800MHz (69.7W), or a P4-M 2.6 400MHz (35W) may be good choices. Processor Electrical Specifications.
Hauppage's WinTV-PVR-350 looks good for an HTPC.
I remember reading that the Hoojum Cubit case has poor airflow.
Trip-
jtippel-
If you only want clockspeed to do MPEG-2 encoding, you may want to look at hardware MPEG-2 encoders, like Trip suggested. You could probably set up a system in which you use a non-CPU-intensive lossless codec (like HuffyUV) out of your DVB tuner, and then have the MPEG-2 hardware transcode that. I know you can do something like this under mythtv. But it's probably just easier (in terms of what your programs can do and your "workflow") to throw lots of CPU at the video as it is being captured.
Umm... I guess? I suppose it depends on how strict you are about what "supported" means. Here is an older writeup about using the P4M on a desktop board in which the CPU multiplier was always set to 12. This newer post says the same thing. That's not so bad, though, since you can run a reasonable 12 x 200 MHz. I don't know if you'd have any luck getting SpeedStep to work; it probably needs chipset support, and I doubt it would be enabled, even on the Radeon 9100.Trip wrote:If the 4-M was supported, would the 4-M CPU run at its correct speed? ie. Commell's LV-670M
jtippel-
If you only want clockspeed to do MPEG-2 encoding, you may want to look at hardware MPEG-2 encoders, like Trip suggested. You could probably set up a system in which you use a non-CPU-intensive lossless codec (like HuffyUV) out of your DVB tuner, and then have the MPEG-2 hardware transcode that. I know you can do something like this under mythtv. But it's probably just easier (in terms of what your programs can do and your "workflow") to throw lots of CPU at the video as it is being captured.
hiTrip wrote:I was considering the Commell LV-671MA, Commell MA-ATI, PCI riser card w/ 2PCI cards, Pentium M, full desktop case to accomodate the system, fanless PSU, and suspended HDD. The big question though is, will the PCI cards in riser need a horizontal PCI slot or will they be far enough within the case to use a connection to the verticle PCI slot.
What pentium Mobile board were you considering?
Would you be using onboard graphics?
Will you hook your sound up to specialised audio equipment or use the onboard sound as well?
mini-itx.com offers the new silent P4 system by Hush.
i was considering the P-M 1.3 as apparanatly that may run with passive cooling. should that be possible, i would have eliminated at least one fan
.the idea would be to use onboard graphics if possible, after all i won't be playing games on this system (got a ps2).
oh and sound be be via digital coax/optical out to my home theatre decoder - i don't like the idea of using the DACs on the motherboard.
The Hush doesn't actually have a digital audio output! i find this incredible. additionally the case is extremely expensive, and i've heard of people having the system running above recommended temperatures.
i really like the idea of that. i was unaware of the shuttle zens existance and actually it seems like a far more economical choice than a cubit3/psu/slimlinedvdrw/p-m would be. that fan sounds like a bit of a beast, i'll try to find itrs cfm rating and if a papst will fit in, it sounds like just the jobJustin_R wrote:The low-voltage Pentium 4-M (as opposed to the Mobile Pentium 4 or Pentium M) is supposed to be pin-compatible with Socket 478, but your BIOS has to support it. The high-end (2.4GHz) P4-M is listed at 35W TDP (Intel's "thermal design power" rating). That's too much for strict passive cooling. A Zalman flower cooler or Heatlane Zen with a well-placed case fan might do the trick, though.
Easier that that would be if you could throw one in a Shuttle ZEN ST62K. It comes with a 180W external brick PSU, and features the "ICE" heatpipe, which lets one 80 x 25 mm fan do double duty as CPU fan and case fan. The standard fan (which is thermally controlled) is rated at 40dbA, but you could swap in your PAPST without any trouble. It seems that SPCR's own Ralf Hutter just got one, so hopefully he can provide more details about its silencing capability. (For example, does the CPU Vcore adjust really go down to 0.8250V?) I have no idea if the Shuttle BIOS supports the P4-M though. (I imagine it might, since the Radeon 9100 IGP is primarily a mobile chipset.)
. combined with a p4-m and a 5.25'' dvdrw, i could save myself quite a bit of money!i don't think i'll need such a powerful cpu, as i stated in my first post, the most this system will have to do is downgrade mpg2 and that can be done overnight. the rest of the requirements (divx, tv enconding, mpg2 watchg, mp3 streaming) are just out of reach of an epia.Trip wrote:If the 4-M was supported, would the 4-M CPU run at its correct speed? ie. Commell's LV-670M
jtippell, depending upon what you want to do with your computer a higher power machine like a Pentium M 1.6 400MHz (24.5W), a P4 2.4 800MHz (66.2W), a P4 2.8 800MHz (69.7W), or a P4-M 2.6 400MHz (35W) may be good choices. Processor Electrical Specifications.
Hauppage's WinTV-PVR-350 looks good for an HTPC.
I remember reading that the Hoojum Cubit case has poor airflow.
thanks for the headsup about the cubit 3s airflow - looking at the unit again, it does look extremely cramped.
oh and tbh i prefer the nebula - it has DVB, whicb in the UK means we have acces to >30 digital channels + radio channels
. The nebula also has decent, inhouse software and an all in one remote - maybe now i can banish my philips lcd remote and the hone cinema remotes.hmm, that is a consideration but i think i;ll record mpg2 straight to hard disk (160gb -250gb) and then downgrade if necessary. DVB cards simply "rip" mpg2 streams out of the air so i don't think there would be too much cpu intensity required to do that.Justin_R wrote:Trip-Umm... I guess? I suppose it depends on how strict you are about what "supported" means. Here is an older writeup about using the P4M on a desktop board in which the CPU multiplier was always set to 12. This newer post says the same thing. That's not so bad, though, since you can run a reasonable 12 x 200 MHz. I don't know if you'd have any luck getting SpeedStep to work; it probably needs chipset support, and I doubt it would be enabled, even on the Radeon 9100.Trip wrote:If the 4-M was supported, would the 4-M CPU run at its correct speed? ie. Commell's LV-670M
jtippel-
If you only want clockspeed to do MPEG-2 encoding, you may want to look at hardware MPEG-2 encoders, like Trip suggested. You could probably set up a system in which you use a non-CPU-intensive lossless codec (like HuffyUV) out of your DVB tuner, and then have the MPEG-2 hardware transcode that. I know you can do something like this under mythtv. But it's probably just easier (in terms of what your programs can do and your "workflow") to throw lots of CPU at the video as it is being captured.
thanks for the information guys, this community seems really useful. i'll let you know what my choices are and take a few photos when finished!
j
looking at the review on an alternative site 9sorry, whats the rules here regarding linking to other review sites?), the zen fan has:
45cfm, 40db rating
apart from that, it seems neigh on perfect (albiet the difficulty in getting a dvdrw drive to match the facia).
i seem to have a fewof choices (all papst):
- CFM = 26.5cfm
- RPM = 2050
- dBA = 19
- CFM = 40.6cfm
- RPM = 3100
- dBA = 32
# Air Flow 34.1CFM
# Noise Output 26dB(A)
# Speed 2600RPM
looknig at the outputs, it seems that 32db would be a direct replacement, though i would be keen to try out the 19db fan - question is: whilst idling, or recording tv, or replying divx (those are the times when i require silence), will these fans actually BE silent?
i have a 40mm fan in my M10000 rated at 21db @12v. i've 5v modded that and it still annoys me! do you think this is largely due to the small size of the fan and therefore high pitched sound? if so, will an 80mm @ 19db be any better?
thankyou
j
45cfm, 40db rating
apart from that, it seems neigh on perfect (albiet the difficulty in getting a dvdrw drive to match the facia).
i seem to have a fewof choices (all papst):
- CFM = 26.5cfm
- RPM = 2050
- dBA = 19
- CFM = 40.6cfm
- RPM = 3100
- dBA = 32
# Air Flow 34.1CFM
# Noise Output 26dB(A)
# Speed 2600RPM
looknig at the outputs, it seems that 32db would be a direct replacement, though i would be keen to try out the 19db fan - question is: whilst idling, or recording tv, or replying divx (those are the times when i require silence), will these fans actually BE silent?
i have a 40mm fan in my M10000 rated at 21db @12v. i've 5v modded that and it still annoys me! do you think this is largely due to the small size of the fan and therefore high pitched sound? if so, will an 80mm @ 19db be any better?
thankyou
j
-
Ralf Hutter
- SPCR Reviewer
- Posts: 8636
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
- Location: Sunny SoCal
Shuttle Zen ST62K review is up.
This looks like the perfect foundation to build your system. The ICE fan can be run at it's lowest setting (around 1600rpm) and is quieter than an 80mm 12V Panaflo L1A so you don't even need to fret about swapping it out.
This looks like the perfect foundation to build your system. The ICE fan can be run at it's lowest setting (around 1600rpm) and is quieter than an 80mm 12V Panaflo L1A so you don't even need to fret about swapping it out.
seems to be perfect for my requirements!
i would prefer if it was a hifi shape, but thats life.
the fan seems ok, if it stays at 1600rpm then hopefully it will be inaudable. i would prefer to put in a papst, though maybe thats partly due to bad experience - the bisonic stock cpu fan on my m10000 was extremely noisy. then again modding the shuttle to take a standard depth fan may be a lil tricky.
one thing you ddin't mention in the review was whether the fan was indeed "silent." I know its difficult to judge - each to their own and all - but would you be able to hear the fan say 1m away in perfect silence?
Last question:
given the fan at ~1600rpm is capable of cooling the cpu <60degrees at LOAD, is there any way of further reducing the speed when it is at IDLE? some way of bringing it down to ~1000rpm?
ta!
j
i would prefer if it was a hifi shape, but thats life.
the fan seems ok, if it stays at 1600rpm then hopefully it will be inaudable. i would prefer to put in a papst, though maybe thats partly due to bad experience - the bisonic stock cpu fan on my m10000 was extremely noisy. then again modding the shuttle to take a standard depth fan may be a lil tricky.
one thing you ddin't mention in the review was whether the fan was indeed "silent." I know its difficult to judge - each to their own and all - but would you be able to hear the fan say 1m away in perfect silence?
Last question:
given the fan at ~1600rpm is capable of cooling the cpu <60degrees at LOAD, is there any way of further reducing the speed when it is at IDLE? some way of bringing it down to ~1000rpm?
ta!
j
-
Ralf Hutter
- SPCR Reviewer
- Posts: 8636
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
- Location: Sunny SoCal
I'm pretty impressed with that fan at it's lowest speed. It's only about as noisy as a 92mm L1A at 6-7 volts. and is quieter than an 80mm L1A at 12V. That's pretty quiet!jtippell wrote:seems to be perfect for my requirements!
i would prefer if it was a hifi shape, but thats life.
the fan seems ok, if it stays at 1600rpm then hopefully it will be inaudable. i would prefer to put in a papst, though maybe thats partly due to bad experience - the bisonic stock cpu fan on my m10000 was extremely noisy. then again modding the shuttle to take a standard depth fan may be a lil tricky.
one thing you ddin't mention in the review was whether the fan was indeed "silent." I know its difficult to judge - each to their own and all - but would you be able to hear the fan say 1m away in perfect silence?
I suppose you could try a FanMate in-line with the Bi-Sonic fan. You'd have to experiment.jtippell wrote:Last question:
given the fan at ~1600rpm is capable of cooling the cpu <60degrees at LOAD, is there any way of further reducing the speed when it is at IDLE? some way of bringing it down to ~1000rpm?
ta!
j
if you were willing to run a CPU fan at 5V, there's always the PIII, since onboard graphics suit, the Via C3M266 mobo is all you would need. A Silentmaxx proSilence could power it easily. PIII is a good bit stronger than a Via C3 - I want to say its almost twice as fast.
WOW! I just read your review, impressive. This looks MUCH better than a PIII systemRalf Hutter wrote:Shuttle Zen ST62K review is up.
This looks like the perfect foundation to build your system. The ICE fan can be run at it's lowest setting (around 1600rpm) and is quieter than an 80mm 12V Panaflo L1A so you don't even need to fret about swapping it out.
, heh, and its 3DMark Score is higher than mine. Suspending that HDD was a nice touch and looks like the best way to go.I might catch hell for this, but I think you're better off going with a P4 processor with hyperthreading if you're shooting for HTPC. Also, the inclusion of SSE2 support is certainly a notable addition.
I know this because I do a lot of programming specific to encoding and decoding video streams, and if the programmers have their heads on straight and make use of the HT with video/audio streams, they can pretty much double the performance of an Athlon when dealing with multiple encodes or decodes (or a combination of both). Mind you this performance is specific to most encoding processes, and not general performance--but in my mind, the P4 w/HT is pretty much a shoe-in for video compression/decompression applications barring AMD pulling some serious rabbits out of the woodwork...
I agree that the zen looks ideal.
I know this because I do a lot of programming specific to encoding and decoding video streams, and if the programmers have their heads on straight and make use of the HT with video/audio streams, they can pretty much double the performance of an Athlon when dealing with multiple encodes or decodes (or a combination of both). Mind you this performance is specific to most encoding processes, and not general performance--but in my mind, the P4 w/HT is pretty much a shoe-in for video compression/decompression applications barring AMD pulling some serious rabbits out of the woodwork...
I agree that the zen looks ideal.
Do you think a Pentium M 1.6GHz would be sufficient?Beyonder wrote:I might catch hell for this, but I think you're better off going with a P4 processor with hyperthreading if you're shooting for HTPC. Also, the inclusion of SSE2 support is certainly a notable addition.
I know this because I do a lot of programming specific to encoding and decoding video streams, and if the programmers have their heads on straight and make use of the HT with video/audio streams, they can pretty much double the performance of an Athlon when dealing with multiple encodes or decodes (or a combination of both). Mind you this performance is specific to most encoding processes, and not general performance--but in my mind, the P4 w/HT is pretty much a shoe-in for video compression/decompression applications barring AMD pulling some serious rabbits out of the woodwork...
I used a Pentium III 550 with Ati Radeon 7200 for DVD and avi playback up to 720x480 resolution. However, it wasn't nearly fast enough for HDTV resolution avi playback.
Even so, HDTV video playback is practical on a PIII 500 using MyHD--which is the most highly recommended HDTV card anyway. Its hardware decoding puts very little load on the processor.
Even so, HDTV video playback is practical on a PIII 500 using MyHD--which is the most highly recommended HDTV card anyway. Its hardware decoding puts very little load on the processor.
the most hectic thing that the HTPC will have to do is recording one channel whilst watching a divx/xvid.
encoding can be done overnight and will probably just be either recording a straight mpg2 stream or downgrading one.
silence and price however are CRITICAL, so i'll probably get theolder p4 (2ghz?) that i can get.
j
encoding can be done overnight and will probably just be either recording a straight mpg2 stream or downgrading one.
silence and price however are CRITICAL, so i'll probably get theolder p4 (2ghz?) that i can get.
j
I know the 2GHz is rated higher on the SPCR chart but it puts out more heat and would need a stronger case fan than a PIII which could also run using the proSilence PSU. The video card would have to run at 4XAGP and the FSB at 133 though. P42.0A = PIII-S-1.4 in performance...
The P42.8C (69.7W, 75'C) is about as high as I would go. 2.4C (66.2W, 74'C) 2.0A (54.3W, 68'C) 1.6A (46.8W, 66'C) PIII-S-1.4 (31.2W, 69'C)
(heat output, max recommended temp.)
Really, I would either go 2.8C or 1.4-S. Why do you like 2.0A?
EDIT:
I've already posted some of those values... well, there they are again 
The P42.8C (69.7W, 75'C) is about as high as I would go. 2.4C (66.2W, 74'C) 2.0A (54.3W, 68'C) 1.6A (46.8W, 66'C) PIII-S-1.4 (31.2W, 69'C)
(heat output, max recommended temp.)
Really, I would either go 2.8C or 1.4-S. Why do you like 2.0A?
EDIT:
I've already posted some of those values... well, there they are again A p4 with HT would be optimal, hands down. Although, again--the truth of the matter is that you can easily make old processors work just fine by using add in cards to offload processor power.Trip wrote:multitasking: viewing picture in picture while recording or editing, etc.Beyonder wrote:Sufficient for what?
Either way, when you start talking about multiple encodes and decodes all happening simultaniously, the P4 is a pretty obvious winner.
...although truthfully, if you *really* wanted horsepower, look to making a custom board with a Texas Instruments DM642 digital signal processor--consumes 1.1 watts, costs sixty bucks in lots of a thousand, and probably performs on par with a P4 (4800 MMAC's--4.8 billion "multiply and accumulates" per second if you get the registers right). Now THAT's performance to power consumption, baby.
