I often think of God ....

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Cov
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I often think of God ....

Post by Cov » Mon May 11, 2009 2:27 pm

Hi, I have thought a lot about him these days.
To say it straight, I'm not a religious person but I don't deny him either.

I know that all attempts made to define him are endless and all have failed, sure they have.
Now I invite everybody to look at God from a different point of view, like ...


... there's me, living my life without having ANY religion.
When I take my time to reflect about my past, I feel the strong desire to ask ... why ?
Why has this and that happened to me ?
If there wasn't any God, then good or bad things just happened by random and always as a reaction of something what happened before.
It doesn't mean that I always have influence over it.

I think to myself that if our lifes were already written before we were born, then what would be the purpose in the first place ?
If there was any, I still struggle to put the parts together.
We learn all our lifes and when we reach the highest point ... we die.
Having said that, I just presumed that everyone's life advances more the older we get.
I do try to improve myself constantly, but you can't say this for everybody.
For example when I meet someone whom I haven't seen in a long time, I automatically expect this person to have grown mentally ... but it can happen that he or she has become a brute which is disappointing but still fact.

Why is it that some people mature and some don't ?
And if there was a sense in growing, why don't we pursue mental health more ?
The way our world works at the present is that material posession is our secret god, and human beings are being treated like ... easily replaceable.
Do you realize the double faced moral of our society ?

Why would I trust anybody with one of the most important questions of my life ?
In every other matter of importance I need evidence and reassurance of some kind.
But with the question of god it seems to me that all logical rules are being suspended.
When we start talking about different beliefs, people are suddenly free and independent to believe in everything and anything which would under normal circumstances, bring our red alert to alarm.

If you start your sentence with: I believe ...., then nobody can question this because it's been declared as a belief already.
Who'd dare to be so arrogant and force his unique opinion onto you ?
You are able to argue about facts, because science can be proofed.
But you can't argue about a belief as applying normal evidence results in running dry of arguments.
Does that mean a religion is a creation out of wishful thinking ?

I would say yes. The strong desire of people to have some kind of guidance in their lifes can be satisfied by deciding to believe in God.
Looking at this subject that way, everything starts making sense to me now.
As nobody in this world can proof you wrong anyway, you might as well develop great faith that puts you above others ... which makes you feel good, doesn't it ?

Since human beings exist on this earth, the desire for a God seems to be compulsory.
But until today, this question has not been clarified yet, the way that somebody like me feels convinced.
I am not pro or contra God ... my inner voice would just not allow me to lie to myself.

That's another point.
Considering the massive amount of dishonesty I meet everywhere in any shape or form ... why would you trust in something that defines your very life ?
You are exposed to smooth force since birth (conditioned for easy manipulation) and are being infiltrated by our corrupt society ... the way we milk our cows and eat them when we decide that their time has come to die.

How can I put ANY trust in a society, that put force upon me ?
I'm not talking about the rules which make our infrastructure work.
What I mean is the well established desire where people enjoy to control people.
Again, coming back to the fact that money is rated higher than human beings while it should be the other way around.

In a society like this ... is there still space for honesty ?
That's what you need if you are interested in facing the truth in form of God.

Or do you think you can simply continue to f**k around when it comes to religion ?

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Re: I often think of God ....

Post by m0002a » Mon May 11, 2009 4:10 pm

Cov wrote:Hi, I have thought a lot about him these days.
To say it straight, I'm not a religious person but I don't deny him either.
Absolute reality (God as you call it) is not a person. So whatever you are thinking about is not going to point you to the knowledge you are "claiming" to seek. Thinking is fine, but knowledge comes between thoughts.
Cov wrote:I think to myself that if our lifes were already written before we were born, then what would be the purpose in the first place ?
I don't know. Some religions teach that doctrine, but most do not. There is only an incidental and sometimes antithetical relationship between religion and absolute reality. If you are serious about absolute reality, then I would suggest you forget about religion (your favorite whipping boy) and focus on the great thinkers in history who believed an absolutely reality does exist. You can start with the Eastern or Western Traditions, but since you seem fixated on the West, I would start with Plato.
Cov wrote:Do you realize the double faced moral of our society ?
Yes. Are you a freshman or a sophomore?
Cov wrote:In every other matter of importance I need evidence and reassurance of some kind. But with the question of god it seems to me that all logical rules are being suspended.
No matter how much evidence you have, you always have to trust the evidence. Evidence is not self-explanatory, nor can it be proven to not deceive you. You might want to check out some David Hume on this one.

Logic is a very useful thing, but it is a thing of this physical world, and it cannot prove the existence of an entity which is fundamentally different than itself. As Kant said in the preface to his Critique of Pure Reason:

"Human reason has this peculiar fate [Schicksal] that in one species of its knowledge it is burdened by questions which, as prescribed by the very nature of reason itself, it is not able to ignore, but which, as transcending all its powers, it is also not able to answer."
Cov wrote:If you start your sentence with: I believe ...., then nobody can question this because it's been declared as a belief already.
Who'd dare to be so arrogant and force his unique opinion onto you ?
I don't know. Why are you forcing your opinions on us? OT posts are presumed to have something to do with computers, although not necessarily with quiet computing. If you want to post these thoughts someplace where you will be intellectually challenged (if you are up to it) why not try a forum focused on these issues?
Cov wrote:In a society like this ... is there still space for honesty ?
That's what you need if you are interested in facing the truth in form of God.
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

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Re: I often think of God ....

Post by Cov » Mon May 11, 2009 7:45 pm

m0002a wrote:Absolute reality (God as you call it) is not a person. So whatever you are thinking about is not going to point you to the knowledge you are "claiming" to seek. Thinking is fine, but knowledge comes between thoughts.
I never claimed that God was a person. What makes you think that ?
You know very well that we all use the word God for something we don't even have an imagination of.

Why would you highlight "claiming to seek" ?

I don't have a burning desire to fill the empty hole which many people fill with a religion.
I have to set priorities and the question of God has not had the highest priority in my life.
Only sometimes, when I think about how my life went so far ... I start wondering if there was something which I yet have to discover.
I'm relaxed about it because I got through my life so far ... surely will get the rest done as well.

I don't understand what "... knowledge comes between thoughts" means.
I don't know. Some religions teach that doctrine, but most do not. There is only an incidental and sometimes antithetical relationship between religion and absolute reality. If you are serious about absolute reality, then I would suggest you forget about religion (your favorite whipping boy) and focus on the great thinkers in history who believed an absolutely reality does exist. You can start with the Eastern or Western Traditions, but since you seem fixated on the West, I would start with Plato.
Reading about our great philosophers ?
The plans I have for my future take approx 4 times more time than I will be able to spare.
Meaning, I need to be very selective to cope with the avalanche of information I'm exposed to.
I don't watch TV anymore for the last 3 years and still find it very hard to manage my time.

Yes. Are you a freshman or a sophomore?
If I judged myself by the rules of our society, I should be execute immediately for being so dumb.
But because I'm the one and only person who knows what has happened in my childhood, I have much understanding for that I wasn't able to grow anywhere near the speed of what you'd call normal.
In fact I'm surprised that I have grown into a tree despite people trying to burn me, cut me, axe me, break me, rip me, kick me ...
Deep are the scares and some brunches are missing, but I haven't given up my resistance ... yet.

No matter how much evidence you have, you always have to trust the evidence. Evidence is not self-explanatory, nor can it be proven to not deceive you. You might want to check out some David Hume on this one.
Will do.
Logic is a very useful thing, but it is a thing of this physical world, and it cannot prove the existence of an entity which is fundamentally different than itself. As Kant said in the preface to his Critique of Pure Reason:

"Human reason has this peculiar fate [Schicksal] that in one species of its knowledge it is burdened by questions which, as prescribed by the very nature of reason itself, it is not able to ignore, but which, as transcending all its powers, it is also not able to answer."
Logic cannot prove the existance of God ?
That reminds me on: "There're things happening beyond of what your eyes can see."

I don't know. Why are you forcing your opinions on us? OT posts are presumed to have something to do with computers, although not necessarily with quiet computing. If you want to post these thoughts someplace where you will be intellectually challenged (if you are up to it) why not try a forum focused on these issues?
I'm not sure that an OT thread has to be related to computers at silentpcreviews.
Otherwise it would not have been called OT !?

Besides this, I'm not forcing anybody to read my thread just because I created it, and neither were you forced to reply.
But then again, the intrusive way our world is structured starts the minute I leave the house.
Adverts wherever you go forcing their way through to your attention.
Going into a supermarket, I find myself forced to listen to music / adverts I wouldn't approve.
That's just how our life is.

I remember to have come across some individuals who felt pleasure to insult me as much as they could (in a different forum).
The fact that they are free to do so does force me to accept their insults which I would not do offline.
Being online, people feel the same like being in a car on the streets.
How many people are rude down to the most primitive level towards others, while being protected inside the car.
If they left the car and faced the person they're so upset about, they'd behave differently.

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.
That reminds me of a discussion I had with a lady, where I was trying to propose that being as honest as possible only shows good confidence in yourself.

I have certainly often burned my mouth by saying the truth.
People generally prefer to live in their own dream world and don't want to be disturbed (but would never admit it).

By saying that I couldn't handle the truth, you imply that you are the holder of the truth which is a contradiction in itself.
I think you're just trying to provoke me because you do need to know me better before you'd say something like that.

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Re: I often think of God ....

Post by m0002a » Mon May 11, 2009 9:05 pm

Cov wrote:
m0002a wrote:You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.
By saying that I couldn't handle the truth, you imply that you are the holder of the truth which is a contradiction in itself. I think you're just trying to provoke me because you do need to know me better before you'd say something like that.
Not really. It's kind of an American movie joke. Chill out.

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Post by AZBrandon » Mon May 11, 2009 10:12 pm

I'm just curious, but what are the OP's intentions? The post read kind of like one of those commentary blogs and not so much like a discussion post. Anyway, since I see the mention of science, I'll point out why a pure scientist cannot be an atheist or anti-theist. Agnostic, or accepting of any of a number of different religions, yes, but a-theist, no.

It's very simple: You cannot prove a negative. For someone to say that they KNOW there is no God means they are stating something that isn't the truth. What they should be saying is they believe there is no God, since after all you cannot prove if God does not exist. If you live to see God reveal himself, then OK, there's your proof of existence, but if not you can't prove the lack of existence since it's simply not possible to prove something doesn't exist anywhere in the universe. You can choose to believe the lack of existence, but it's only that - your own belief.

That's the bottom line - since you cannot prove that something doesn't exist, all belief must be faith. The only way to reconcile failing to believe in a God of any kind is either egotism (believing you're so smart you can do the impossible and know something doesn't exist even though you can't prove it) or simple apathy. Most likely for the majority it's apathy. After all, we're a very busy people, and picking a belief system is like work. It's easier to just go the path of apathy and leave the question blank rather than answer and possibly get the question wrong, right?

Just something to ponder, since you did say you've done a lot of thinking. I suggest you spend some time on that one. You can't prove that something doesn't exist.
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Post by Matija » Mon May 11, 2009 11:37 pm

I often think of god when observing a thread about god on SPCR.

Then I say "Oh god, another thread, f@#*!"

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Post by judge56988 » Tue May 12, 2009 12:18 am

m0002a wrote:OT posts are presumed to have something to do with computers
Why?
"Our "pub" where you can post about things completely Off Topic or about non-silent PC issues." suggests to me that discussion of non-computing issues is perfectly acceptable.
However it does get a bit tedious when the same old political and religious topics get chewed over by the same bunch of people.

To Cov:
Still searching for the meaning of life, the universe and everything?
I agree with m0002a that SPCR is not the best place to search! I also think that a forum in your native language would be better. Discussing, and understanding philosophy really requires a fluency in language that can only be achieved by a native or a scholar
This and this are a couple of books I can recommend if you want to try to understand what makes people tick, although obviously not everyone will agree.
Cov wrote:I don't watch TV anymore for the last 3 years and still find it very hard to manage my time.
There is some good stuff on TV if you are selective in your viewing - you might be missing out...

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Post by Aris » Tue May 12, 2009 4:21 am

I believe that just because you cannot understand something does not mean you must label it. Be comfortable with the unknown. No one on earth even knows if god exists.

Being a good person and being religious have nothing to do with each other.

If you are curious about the subject, seek out the truth about it, but do not label that which you do not know just so that you can sleep easier at night.

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Post by m0002a » Tue May 12, 2009 5:32 am

judge56988 wrote:
m0002a wrote:OT posts are presumed to have something to do with computers
Why?
Because most of us have a real life outside this forum. It is not a closed world.

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Post by NeilBlanchard » Tue May 12, 2009 5:39 am

Let's keep this from getting personal, folks!
Sincerely, Neil
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Post by judge56988 » Tue May 12, 2009 5:49 am

m0002a wrote:
judge56988 wrote:
m0002a wrote:OT posts are presumed to have something to do with computers
Why?
Because most of us have a real life outside this forum. It is not a closed world.
I don't see what you're getting at here - does having a real life outside this forum somehow preclude posting about religion in the off-topic forum?

I didn't mention it before but your patronising response to the OP was not particularly pleasant to read.

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Post by m0002a » Tue May 12, 2009 6:30 am

judge56988 wrote:I don't see what you're getting at here - does having a real life outside this forum somehow preclude posting about religion in the off-topic forum?
It should IMO. There are plenty of more appropriate forums. It seems to me that one would be severely limiting their scope of knowledge and resources if all subjects were expected to be addressed in this one forum. Not everyone who posts in this forum is interested in this particular subject (or is interested in discussing it here). For people who claim that they are interested in truth, then maybe they ought to subject their views to a more critical and focused audience (unless they are afraid to do so?).
judge56988 wrote:I didn't mention it before but your patronising response to the OP was not particularly pleasant to read.
Then don't read it. I would say the same in spades about the original post.

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Post by Tobias » Tue May 12, 2009 7:54 am

I like the Off Topic forums on SPCR as there are no subject that is to little or to large to be discussed :D It is a constant stream of new and sometimes provocative thought which I am learning from. It isn't always one have the energy to invest in any one single topic, but sometimes one does and then it is usually worth it:) The other times one just lets the topic go unnoticed and unread.

If one would adopt the scientific model, then religion very well can be seen as "wishful thinking", to use your words, Cov. As you point out, it so happens to work out great and fill various roles in society. Everything from providing a blankie to provide the men (predominantly) in power with an excellent tool to use to keep the peasantry in check with promisses of doom and despair in the life to come.

On the other hand, Humans has always felt the need of a higher purpose, a group to belong to and has always had the need of a way to explain everything that happens around us. And frankly, Today science is advancing as that belief system, but theism is a just as probable assumption.

What is there to say that everything we can meassure is true and everything that we can not meassure is not? Regardless if one choose to call it Science or God, it is only the same urge to explain everything that goes on around us. (sure, science has allowed us to progress materialistically more than religion have, but there is nothing in science that is denying the possibility of a God). And as far as meassuring goes, can we even deduce beyond belief that the world actually exists? (On the other hand, if this is only a figment of my imagination I'd like to slap myself for living up north, when I could spend my time with lots of warmth and palmtrees:)

There is, though, other ways than Religion to fulfill our spiritual needs. We can, for instance, seek it in each other. Community. Be it RL or SPCR, but the acknowledgment of eachother is what gets most of us to grow and better ourselves. And when one realise how much we influence eachother the notion of 'man as God' doesn't seem so far fetched any more. Someone said that man either believes in God or himself. Divination of man? Even the bible say that man was created as copy of God (or, the agnostics would say, God is created as a copy of man...), so why not embrace the concept of the divine man(kind)?

Noone can say which is the correct belief. The reason to belive or not to believe any of this is personal and needs to come from you. I found my defining argument/epiphany in my own way, but I will not post it publicly as it might cause someone unnecessary troubles and grievings regarding their beliefs:)

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Post by aristide1 » Tue May 12, 2009 11:44 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Let's keep this from getting personal, folks!
While I agree this reminds me of a question I believe was posted on SPRC many years ago. The question was "What's your favorite game?"

Several answered, then one person said "Oh, get a life."

I responded "But I don't have a life. That's why I like "Half Life." I figured "Half Life" is better than no life at all.

It was amusing at the time. 8)

Stay calm, it confuses people.
People who put money and political ideology ahead of truth and ethics are neither patriots nor human beings.

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Post by m0002a » Tue May 12, 2009 2:05 pm

If one is serious about truth relating whether God exists, the nature of the universe, etc, and what is real vs what is imagined, then it makes sense to me that one would seek out experts in the field, or at least frequent a forum where this is the main topic of discussion and a larger number of other persons also interested in these subjects might congregate and exchange ideas.

Posting about these matters here in this forum is sort of like going onto a Philosophy forum and posting about quiet computing. You can do it, but it simply makes no sense if one is serious about the subject.

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Post by Tobias » Tue May 12, 2009 2:14 pm

Yes, you've said so three times now, but I'm not active in any such forums, nor do I enjoy myself on any such forums. I like SPCR, am active here and usually it doesn't take more than the average American SPCR-member to give me enough food for thought on any given topic :) You don't need to answer this topic if you don't like it:)

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Post by Cov » Tue May 12, 2009 6:25 pm

AZBrandon wrote:I'm just curious, but what are the OP's intentions?
Curious about what ? My intentions are to discuss this subject without drifting into using OTT terminology.
Meaning, I can only offer my simple thinking because I'm not nearly as educated as you.
You ever had this where a child asked you something simple and you didn't know the answer ?
That made me realize that what we've been tought in school did cover everything except distinguishing the natural thirst for knowledge, presented in the pace of the student ... and not like a drill into your skull.
Sorry, but my experiences in school were only violence and frustration. Let's not go into that.
The post reads kind of like one of those commentary blogs and not so much like a discussion post.
I have to express my feelings first, for you to be able to respond !?
A posting must be interesting to read, so I rather keep it short.
Otherwise I had written 100 x more.
Anyway, since I see the mention of science, I'll point out why a pure scientist cannot be an atheist or anti-theist. Agnostic, or accepting of any of a number of different religions, yes, but a-theist, no.
A pure scientist. You mean a person who thinks scientific only.
You mean a scientist automatically believes in the possibility ? Why ? By the ground of his extensive knowledge ?
Please elaborate.
It's very simple: You cannot prove a negative. For someone to say that they KNOW there is no God means they are stating something that isn't the truth.
Interesting. But how could anybody say that ?
What theories are atheists claiming that God cannot exist ?
If I had the firm expectation that God must be good, I then have to conclude that he does not exist because he would not allow so much suffering to happen.
Doesn't that mean that people compare God too much to themselves ?
Then again, I'm not an atheist.
... You can choose to believe the lack of existence, but it's only that - your own belief.
... since you cannot prove that something doesn't exist, all belief must be faith. ... It's easier to just go the path of apathy and leave the question blank rather than answer and possibly get the question wrong, right?
Getting the question of God wrong ? We wouldn't find out the answer until we die. And even then, ....
Just something to ponder, since you did say you've done a lot of thinking. I suggest you spend some time on that one. You can't prove that something doesn't exist.
Thinking if I ever tried to prove a negative ... I don't think I did on own purpose.
Have I met people who tried ? A lot.
Yes, there are people indeed who are constantly conclude based on their current knowledge.
We all know that life is complicated.
Coming to a final conclusion without having sufficient information, is just a sign of ignorance.
Those people being inaccurately are often quick to prove a negative.

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Post by Cov » Tue May 12, 2009 6:26 pm

Matija wrote:"Oh god, another thread, f@#*!"
You can call me Cov :wink:

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Post by Cov » Tue May 12, 2009 6:40 pm

judge56988 wrote:Still searching for the meaning of life, the universe and everything?
Ha! I doubt I will ever find the answer.
I can ask ... but maybe I shouldn't !?
I agree with m0002a that SPCR is not the best place to search! I also think that a forum in your native language would be better.

Oh dear, does it show a lot that I'm a bloody foreigner ?
I didn't know :oops:
Discussing, and understanding philosophy really requires a fluency in language that can only be achieved by a native or a scholar
This and this are a couple of books I can recommend if you want to try to understand what makes people tick, although obviously not everyone will agree.
I have found and downloaded the pdf's now.
Thanks for the suggestions !!
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Post by colm » Tue May 12, 2009 7:57 pm

why I just read this post...well I have no idea.
How many people are rude down to the most primitive level towards others, while being protected inside the car.
If they left the car and faced the person they're so upset about, they'd behave differently.
Is this what the god conversation is about? I just read about legislation on cyber bullying. I have felt it, it is beyond virtual when theiving starts happening. I wondered about god then too. :roll:

If wondering god, is the poster seeking help on something with authority. what is this about...babbling invisibles.
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Post by AZBrandon » Tue May 12, 2009 9:42 pm

Cov wrote:
Anyway, since I see the mention of science, I'll point out why a pure scientist cannot be an atheist or anti-theist. Agnostic, or accepting of any of a number of different religions, yes, but a-theist, no.
A pure scientist. You mean a person who thinks scientific only.
You mean a scientist automatically believes in the possibility ? Why ? By the ground of his extensive knowledge ?
Please elaborate.
By pure scientist I mean someone that actually follows the scientific method. There's a decent description on wikipedia which describes the process. The way I'd describe it is that a scientific research standpoint is to go into a question with no pre-conceptions and without drawing any conclusions that cannot be supported by data.

Like I said, saying that you are positive there is no God based on the fact you don't know anyone to have met God is like saying you have used science to prove there's no live outside of the Earth based on the fact we've been to the moon and taken pictures of several planets in our own solar system. There's simply insufficient data from a scientific standpoint to make any wild claims such as saying you can prove there's no God.

You used the curious phrase "By the ground of his extensive knowledge" but when it comes to the vastness of the universe, spanning both space and time, to think we have vast knowledge only smacks of hubris, and from articles I've read, there's actually not that many people deep in the science field for a living that will cross the line from being agnostic to being atheist and making that wild claim that they know so much about time and space so as to draw a conclusion that there must be no God.

I see in your posts that you say yourself you are not atheist, so I'm guessing you understand this distinction between what can be reasonably proved (such as, there's no life on the moon) and what cannot be proved (such as, there's no God anywhere in space, time, or alternate, unseen dimensions). That's all I was trying to say - that there's an important difference between what can be proved and what cannot.
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Post by Cov » Tue May 12, 2009 10:58 pm

Aris wrote:I believe that just because you cannot understand something does not mean you must label it. Be comfortable with the unknown. No one on earth even knows if god exists.
Hm, you mean that humans have the desire to label anything, even that what they don't understand.
I don't understand some people so I label them crazy.
I don't understand the meaning of life so label it destiny or accident.
I don't understand rocket science so I label it "thanks-but-no-thanks".
"No one knows if God exists." Hm ... that statement was like a much needed slap in my face to wake me up. I think it worked.
Being a good person and being religious have nothing to do with each other.
True. Not all religous people are good and not all good people are religous.
Do people who are good but not religous claim that religion was fake ?
Do people who are good and religous claim that the reason for them being good was having faith in God ?
Do people who are bad and not religous claim that religion was fake ?
What do people claim who are bad and religous ?
If you are curious about the subject, seek out the truth about it, but do not label that which you do not know just so that you can sleep easier at night.
I don't see what could be wrong by labeling the unknown.
Just by using the word "unknown", I already used a label.
If I wouldn't have a clue about how a car works, I would call everything underneath the bonnet > "black box".
By doing that, I can name it. If I stoped giving labels to everything I don't understand, the ability to express myself would decline.

I suspect that I misunderstand you.
Could you elaborate what you mean by "labeling that which I don't know" please ?
Maybe you mean that people should stop trying to explain what they don't understand ?

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Post by Cov » Wed May 13, 2009 12:31 am

Tobias wrote:I like the Off Topic forums on SPCR as there are no subject that is to little or to large to be discussed
I don't like them, I love them.
If one would adopt the scientific model, then religion very well can be seen as "wishful thinking", to use your words, Cov.
Putting things together which absolutely don't match seems to be the challenge.
Fire with water.
Food with poison.
Life with death.
Science with religion.
If the traditional approach lacks answers, then maybe the extraordinary way of thinking can bring the desired enlightenment ?
As you point out, it so happens to work out great and fill various roles in society. Everything from providing a blankie to provide the men (predominantly) in power with an excellent tool to use to keep the peasantry in check with promisses of doom and despair in the life to come.
Religion as a tool to control people !!
That idea must have been invented by the devil himself !
On the other hand, Humans have always felt the need of a higher purpose, a group to belong to and has always had the need of a way to explain everything that happens around us. And frankly, Today science is advancing as that belief system, but theism is a just as probable assumption.
I wonder why that is that some peple cannot live without having a religion.
It's like their air supply !? I struggle very much to understand that.
What is there to say that everything we can meassure is true and everything that we can not meassure is not? Regardless if one choose to call it Science or God, it is only the same urge to explain everything that goes on around us.
Some people (especially those who don't mind to lie in general) prefer to live in a bubble of wishful thinking rather than facing the cold truth.
Can that already be the explanation for people being vulnerable when it comes to questioning their religion ?
If I am convinced about something, I wouldn't mind people questioning me because I should be able to stand the hardest trials.
But if I lived in a bubble of fantasy, I'd develop any excuse just to keep my bubble intact.
And as far as meassuring goes, can we even deduce beyond belief that the world actually exists?
That reminds me on a wild theory I read somewhere long time ago.
Nobody has proof that the world around us does not disappear as soon as we close our eyes.
Since we can't witness the continuance of existance, there would be no real evidence that the environment still exist for the time while we close our eye lids.
When I read that, I thought that was pretty f*cked up.
But at the same time, I cannot say I know that nothing changes while I close my eyes because I have nothing to proof the opposite.
There is, though, other ways than Religion to fulfill our spiritual needs. We can, for instance, seek it in each other. Community. Be it RL or SPCR, but the acknowledgment of eachother is what gets most of us to grow and better ourselves. And when one realise how much we influence eachother the notion of 'man as God' doesn't seem so far fetched any more.
That's interesting: ... the acknowledgment of each other is what gets most of us to grow and better ourselves.
I like that expression very much.
Someone said that man either believes in God or himself. Divination of man? ... so why not embrace the concept of the divine man(kind)?
Considering how much trouble we have put ourselves into, I'm not sure if I could believe in humans being divine really.
But then again, I should stop being pessimistic for once.
Being in love can make us doing incredible things.
If that can amaze me, so why can't I amaze myself ?
I should be the most important person in my life, but I grant myself only little sympathy.
I shouldn't be wondering any longer where my mistrust originates from.
No one can say which is the correct belief. The reason to belive or not to believe any of this is personal and needs to come from you. I found my defining argument/epiphany in my own way, but I will not post it publicly as it might cause someone unnecessary troubles and grievings regarding their beliefs.
I learned very late in my life an important strategy of how to behave at job interviews.
A young lady in fact explained to me that during a conversation with potential employers it is absolutely crucial to avoid saying anything negative.
That might sound insignificant to you, but she was right.
If you don't put attention to it, you very likely say something which can put you into a very disadvantaged position.
You could simply avoid that by keeping a (persistant) positive attitude only.

That example came to my mind when I read that you shouldn't say anything that can provoke unneccessary arguments.

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Post by judge56988 » Wed May 13, 2009 12:38 am

Cov wrote: Oh dear, does it show a lot that I'm a bloody foreigner ?
I didn't know :oops:
Your English is excellent but the sentence construction and grammar gives you away.
You also linked to some German websites recently...
My German is pretty limited "vier bier bitte" because like most Brits, I didn't bother to learn foreign languages. Thanks to the Yanks, English has become the default language of the world; shame they butchered the spelling.

As to what to post on what forum; Certainly if you go to a philosophical forum you will get informed opinion but the attraction of the off-topic forum here is that you get a wide range of opinions. SPCR is likely to attract people from around the world, from the left and the right, and from a variety of faiths. Robust debate is great, it's just a shame when people start to be rude/patronising/condescending.
I've learnt that I must choose my words very carefully because what I have considered to be irony or sarcasm has not come across as such; especially to people whose native language is not English, and when the comments are read rather than heard.

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Post by m0002a » Wed May 13, 2009 12:48 am

AZBrandon wrote:The way I'd describe it is that a scientific research standpoint is to go into a question with no pre-conceptions and without drawing any conclusions that cannot be supported by data.
That doesn't seem to me to be the way science works at all.

In science, a hypothesis is developed, which can be based on partial evidence, intuition, or just randomly chosen (such as in the case of Folding at Home), and then experiments are conducted to verify the truth or falsity of the hypothesis. These experiments are documented in a manner that lets other scientists conduct independent experiments to help verify the truth or falsity of the hypothesis.

An unproven hypothesis always precedes the experimentation and gathering of evidence. Otherwise, if the hypothesis were already proven, then there would be no need to conduct experiments.

So I would call such a scientific hypothesis to be an unproven idea that is provisionally accepted as true (what literary critics call "temporary suspension of disbelief" when reading a novel or watching a movie), although certainly the idea will be discarded if the testing does not bear it out.

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Post by m0002a » Wed May 13, 2009 1:05 am

judge56988 wrote:As to what to post on what forum; Certainly if you go to a philosophical forum you will get informed opinion but the attraction of the off-topic forum here is that you get a wide range of opinions. SPCR is likely to attract people from around the world, from the left and the right, and from a variety of faiths. Robust debate is great, it's just a shame when people start to be rude/patronising/condescending.
I've learnt that I must choose my words very carefully because what I have considered to be irony or sarcasm has not come across as such; especially to people whose native language is not English, and when the comments are read rather than heard.
So you think there is some kind of unanimity on philosophical forums, or that everyone is either on the left or the right (if you think that has something to do with philosophy)? I have not found that to be case.

If one is expecting to find out on this forum whether God exists, such an endeavor cannot be taken seriously (unless someone discovers a way to make a cheap, fast, and completely noiseless computer which would prove to most members that God actually did exist). I suppose there is higher comfort level here in this forum compared to forums that are devoted to such subjects as the existence of God. And of course, there are always books, lectures, etc, that one could avail themselves of.

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Post by Cov » Wed May 13, 2009 1:16 am

m0002a,

I have understood your point in your first reply.
Highlighting the truth again doesn't make it any more true if you repeat yourself.
I would respectfully ask you to stop doing that.

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Post by judge56988 » Wed May 13, 2009 1:32 am

m0002a wrote:
judge56988 wrote:As to what to post on what forum; Certainly if you go to a philosophical forum you will get informed opinion but the attraction of the off-topic forum here is that you get a wide range of opinions. SPCR is likely to attract people from around the world, from the left and the right, and from a variety of faiths. Robust debate is great, it's just a shame when people start to be rude/patronising/condescending.
I've learnt that I must choose my words very carefully because what I have considered to be irony or sarcasm has not come across as such; especially to people whose native language is not English, and when the comments are read rather than heard.
So you think there is some kind of unanimity on philosophical forums, or that everyone is either on the left or the right (if you think that has something to do with philosophy)? I have not found that to be case.

If one is expecting to find out on this forum whether God exists, such an endeavor cannot be taken seriously (unless someone discovers a way to make a cheap, fast, and completely noiseless computer which would prove to most members that God actually did exist). I suppose there is higher comfort level here in this forum compared to forums that are devoted to such subjects as the existence of God. And of course, there are always books, lectures, etc, that one could avail themselves of.
First off, I'm not the one searching for meaning. I was merely attempting to defend a persons right to post whatever they want in the Off Topic forum. (See above)

Secondly, I did actually agree with you that this forum might not be the best place to look for in depth and well informed discussion on such topics as to whether God exists.

Thirdly, I did not intend to imply that there was any kind of unanimity or political conformity on philosophical forums. Additionally I do not not think that people post here because of what you call a "comfort level". As I tried to say in my previous post, what you will get on this forum is a viewpoint from the "man in the street" except that that "man" is not fully representational of society because people on this forum are generally better educated than the average person.

Finally, if you do not approve of political and religious topics being discussed on this forum, why do you bother to read them and compose long detailed replies?
Last edited by judge56988 on Wed May 13, 2009 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by m0002a » Wed May 13, 2009 1:34 am

Cov wrote:m0002a,

I have understood your point in your first reply.
Highlighting the truth again doesn't make it any more true if you repeat yourself.
I would respectfully ask you to stop doing that.
I don't believe that I was responding to you in subsequent posts. There are other people who have posted on the subject of whether this is the proper place to find truth, and we should be allowed to discuss that issue. You may ignore my posts from now on, and I will not respond to you either if you prefer that.

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Post by m0002a » Wed May 13, 2009 1:47 am

judge56988 wrote:First off, I'm not the one searching for meaning. I was merely attempting to defend a persons right to post whatever they want in the Off Topic forum. (See above)

Secondly, I did actually agree with you that this forum might not be the best place to look for in depth and well informed discussion on such topics as to whether God exists.

Thirdly, I did not intend to imply that there was any kind of unanimity or political conformity on philosophical forums. Additionally I do not not think that people post here because of what you call a "comfort level". As I tried to say in my previous post, what you will get on this forum is a viewpoint from the "man in the street" except that that "man" is not fully representational of society because people on this forum are generally better educated than the average person.

Finally, if you do not approve of political and religious topics being discussed on this forum, why do you bother to read them and compose long detailed replies?
These are points well-taken. Although I am not sure that people on this forum are better educated than in a philosophical forum.

As to why I am posting on this thread if I don't believe such subjects should be discussed here, it is because I (perhaps foolishly) believed that the OP was serious about finding answers to these questions, and believe it or not, I was actually trying to be constructive (although in a rather blunt way).

Aside from that, I do actually believe that other technical forums that I participate in where there is a rule against politics and religion, are much better off for such restrictions. On the other hand, there are some unmoderated newsgroups that have degenerated to the point where 95% of the posts are politics and religion (which is way off topic to the subject of the forum), and such newsgroups have become vast wastelands.

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