Why does Antec use lousy fans?

wayner · Post by **wayner** » Mon May 05, 2008 10:50 am

[rant on]
Antec has done a pretty good job coming out with quiet PC cases and they have developed a bit of a following. I have purchased two Antec cases myself and will likely stongly consider them in the future.

But why do they include relatively noisy fans with their cases? Why not include a Nexus fan or other quality fan that runs much quieter? When you read the reviews here on SPCR you generally see measurements with the stock fan and with a quieter reference fan. Sure they may save a dollar or two on their costs but it is not in the best interests of their consumers who just have to buy aftermarket fans anyhow!
[/rant off]

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Mon May 05, 2008 11:16 am

Well, to be fair, the SPCR crowd isn't Antec's only market - if they used Nexuses as standard, you'd get people on other forums complaining "Why do Antec always use such puny fans, why can't they include Deltas as standard"....

I wouldn't describe Antec fans as "lousy," anyway - they're too loud for my taste even at low, but they're plenty quiet enough for many people. They're also built decently and shift a good amount of air, so as an all-round compromise you could do a lot worse.

The cases give you a lot for your money IMHO anyway, without considering the fans, which I just think of as an extra freebie. They do come in very handy for other builds where quietness isn't an absolute priority.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Mon May 05, 2008 12:50 pm

I think the question is really: Why doesn't Antec use SPCR preferred fans? And the answer is just as wayner stated. The fans need to move enough air for all situations. Those situations are not aligned with the usual SPCR builder. We want fans that are extremely low noise, beyond what the average joe or even enthusiast would want. It's easy enough to buy our own fans anyways though for the purposes that we want.

walle · Post by **walle** » Mon May 05, 2008 1:32 pm

Humour, and should be taken as such (no offence intended so none should be taken)

Bah, I say let the devolution crowd stick to their aluminium Thermaljunk dittos with enough connectors to string up a Christmas tree whilst letting us who have joined the evolution have our bellowed Solos and P18Xâ€™s shipped with Nexus Real Silent fans. With the option of requesting 800rpm Slips of course, why? well; we wouldnâ€™t want to neglect the most anal of our members here now would we brothers?

wayner · Post by **wayner** » Mon May 05, 2008 2:45 pm

But the Antec cases that I am talking about are specifically marketed as being quiet. Here are two quotes from the Antec web site:

Performance One
The Performance One series of cases is functional, efficient and silent. The pinnacle of performance and style, these cases feature the latest in Quiet Computingâ„¢ and innovative features to enable the ultimate computing experience.

Sonata Family
The leading provider of Quiet Computingâ„¢, Antec offers a full family of whisper-quiet cases. These stylish cases feature great Quiet Computingâ„¢ attributes like quiet power supplies, sound-deadening side panels, and silicone grommets for the hard drives. The EarthWatts 500 watt power supply in the Sonata III 500 and the Sonata Designer 500 cases is 80PLUSÂ® certified, for maximum efficieny.

It sure looks like quietness is the main attribute that they are pushing in these cases, rather than the ability to cool the hottest systems. If the distinguishing factor of Antec cases is the quietness and you are going to lengths such as including hard drive suspension elastics, which is about as anal as it gets, then why not focus more on the noisiest component in the case which is usually the fan, since that is the only moving part in the product that they sell (and the fan in the PS for cases that include PS's)?

So I don't think they are selling these cases to the great unwashed masses - they are selling these to the SPCR crowd although the folks here are at the extreme of the spectrum.

Vicotnik · Post by **Vicotnik** » Mon May 05, 2008 3:01 pm

There's quiet and there's SPCR quiet.

Terms like "whisper-quiet" and crap like that is just market speak. I think most people think that an Antec 120mm TriCool Fan set at low is pretty quiet.

No matter what you buy you will have to be ready to change fans, tape up ventilation holes, undervolt and all that to get the thing just the way you like it.

I think the TriCool fans are pretty nice. Nothing I would use of course, but with the three settings they cover most peoples needs. I don't think I would use stock fans no matter what. Years ago I used Papst fans, then Adda, now Nexus with Slipstreams on the way. Always something new and fans are pretty cheap.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Mon May 05, 2008 3:41 pm

wayner wrote:But the Antec cases that I am talking about are specifically marketed as being quiet.

It's all relative, and a matter of opinion - if you look around other tech sites, there's plenty of Antec articles where the reviewers say the cases *are* quiet, and that they could barely hear the TriCools on low, although probably not many people here would agree.

wayner wrote:It sure looks like quietness is the main attribute that they are pushing in these cases, rather than the ability to cool the hottest systems. If the distinguishing factor of Antec cases is the quietness and you are going to lengths such as including hard drive suspension elastics, which is about as anal as it gets, then why not focus more on the noisiest component in the case which is usually the fan, since that is the only moving part in the product that they sell (and the fan in the PS for cases that include PS's)?

Promoting quietness as an attribute can only be good for sales generally (presumably very few people would actually prefer a noisier case, all else being equal). That said, the provision of sound-deadening panels or optional HDD suspension doesn't compromise the case's appeal to people with priorities other than quietness, whereas fitting exclusively low-airflow fans might very well do so.

I can't speak for Antec's marketing department, but I guess it's a numbers game - if they can please *most* of the silent crowd AND *most* of the gaming and/or overclocking crowd (remembering that they're not mutually exclusive), it makes more economic sense than possibly alienating one section of their potential buyers altogether.

walle · Post by **walle** » Mon May 05, 2008 4:26 pm

Anal version (with a sting of truth)

Output as follows

So Antec is marketing these casings as quiet targeting those who value quietness but despite that ships them with noisy fans thus forcing those who value quietness to replace the fans ironically ending up prioritizing and unknowingly targeting users who donâ€™t value quietness over those who does all during the time they still happily marketing these casings as quiet whilst putting those who value quietness on second row despite having targeted them in the first placeâ€¦

Oh dear

Edit:

And yes, it would be nice if Antec would replace their stock fans with quiet dittos forcing those who find them quite/inferior to replace them. Antec marketing and common sense dictates it damnit.

wayner · Post by **wayner** » Mon May 05, 2008 5:48 pm

Vicotnik wrote:No matter what you buy you will have to be ready to change fans, tape up ventilation holes, undervolt and all that to get the thing just the way you like it.

I don't know that you have to go that far. I have just put together a new system and the only changes I will have to make is to replace the TriCool fan in my Antec Solo case and replace or even just remove the fan on my Xigmatek CPU heatsink. There are no holes to block, the E8400 runs very cool almost all the time the Enermax Modu 82+ PS is very quiet and my HD 3850 Ultimate card is fanless.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Mon May 05, 2008 8:23 pm

wayner wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:No matter what you buy you will have to be ready to change fans, tape up ventilation holes, undervolt and all that to get the thing just the way you like it.
I don't know that you have to go that far.

Well silence isn't the only obsession around here. For example cablegami has really no real effects on silence or temperatures, but it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside when you know that your cables are neatly inside the case.

Speaking about temperatures... I think they are even a bigger obsession then silence. I think it's more common to see people compromising silence for temps then the other way around. There are many reasons for it (mostly bad), but cpu load temperatures offer a convenient and objective way to measure and compare lengths of e-penises then ambiguous and subjective terms like "inaudible" or "whisper quiet".

Anyway, my point is (and probably Vicotnik's also), that we are all essentially different. Even based on this thread, you can see that there is no consensus on TriCools. There's no objective way to say what is quiet and what is not. Everything is subjective. That's why some are willing to go further then rest of us.

Tsorovan · Post by **Tsorovan** » Tue May 06, 2008 3:51 am

Two words: profit margin

Vicotnik · Post by **Vicotnik** » Tue May 06, 2008 5:19 am

wayner wrote:I don't know that you have to go that far. I have just put together a new system and the only changes I will have to make is to replace the TriCool fan in my Antec Solo case and replace or even just remove the fan on my Xigmatek CPU heatsink. There are no holes to block, the E8400 runs very cool almost all the time the Enermax Modu 82+ PS is very quiet and my HD 3850 Ultimate card is fanless.

I have no first hand experience with the Solo, but with my P182 I taped over all kinds of small holes. Mainly the ones around the PSU (since the PSU fan is the only fan in that compartment).
I have also removed the upper HDD cage with it's plastics and the stuff sitting between the compartments and created a solid "floor" using duct tape.

But I think this is my first case ever that I haven't used my dremel on, yet.

JaYp146 · Post by **JaYp146** » Wed May 07, 2008 2:50 pm

Tsorovan wrote:Two words: profit margin

QFT. You can't beat the versatility of Antec's TriCool fans, as well. Very quiet @ L, move a ton of air @ H, medicore @ M. They're fairly durable, as well (ball bearing design).

walle · Post by **walle** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:05 pm

JaYp146 wrote:[QFT. You can't beat the versatility of Antec's TriCool fans, as well. Very quiet @ L, move a ton of air @ H, medicore @ M. They're fairly durable, as well (ball bearing design).

I agree that theyâ€™re versatile in the sense that you have three different settings, but Iâ€™m compelled to challenge the terms used, heck, Iâ€™m committed, so Iâ€™ll provide my own which is that ofâ€¦.noisy, noisier and unbearably noisy.

No such thing as quiet when it comes to them Tricools, no Sir!

Michael Sandstrom · Post by **Michael Sandstrom** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:14 pm

Because they are cheap.

Yomat · Post by **Yomat** » Wed May 07, 2008 5:54 pm

Probably belong in fan subsection but while we're on the topic: How does that tri-cool switch work? Does the switch change voltage, resistance or something else?

blackworx · Post by **blackworx** » Thu May 08, 2008 11:01 am

Erssa wrote:cablegami has really no real effects on silence or temperatures, but it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside when you know that your cables are neatly inside the case

Testify!

Modo · Post by **Modo** » Thu May 08, 2008 11:28 am

Michael Sandstrom wrote:Because they are cheap.

QFT. If Antec wanted, they could easily include silent 1200rpm or 1600rpm fans that would not require swapping for other models, while providing good performance at standard speeds.

Business model: Make a great enclosure, so everybody buys it. Add a premium for fans. Use cheap fans. Profit. (Sorry about the Slashdot reference, couldn't resist.

)

jhhoffma · Post by **jhhoffma** » Thu May 08, 2008 12:29 pm

I get tired of seeing this thread when I click on new post, because I think it's just worded arrogantly. No disrespect to the OP, I don't think it was intentional, and the intent behind the question has some merit, so I'll answer anyway.

Antec doesn't cater to the silentPC-er they cater to the designer PC-er. I for one, feel lucky that Antec decided to use the Tricool fans in their cases as they are light-years beyond what other OEM case fans are. At least these fans on LOW will be reasonably quiet to all but SPCR-veterans.

True, there are quieter fans out there, but think on these points:

1) Would anyone know the difference if they built a system not geared to be silent to begin with? I mean running stock HSF on the CPU and GPU and regular bargain bin loud HDDs...you'll never hear the case fans there anyway, not to mention a PSU not geared toward quiet computing.

2) Have you looked at the cost of the "quiet fans"? Imagine paying the extra $10 plus markup for a Slipstream 800rpm to be included.

3) Take the Slipstream 800rpm example...you know that any hardcore gamer would say that it "doesn't move enough air to cool my Q199950 4.8GHz Quad Core running a vCore of 16v and my 8 Geforce 10000GTXs". Point being, quiet fans don't move enough air for extremely power hungry components without other consideration. And people who pay a premium for a case are more likely to by more expensive (read "faster and hotter") hardware.

Trust me, Antec knows it's target market. It knows how to design quiet PCs (by calling MikeC). But still has to make a business decision on how best to sell as many cases/PSUs/etc as it can for as much as it can. I think it does a reasonably good job at it.

wayner · Post by **wayner** » Fri May 09, 2008 7:52 pm

jhhoffma wrote:Antec doesn't cater to the silentPC-er they cater to the designer PC-er. I for one, feel lucky that Antec decided to use the Tricool fans in their cases as they are light-years beyond what other OEM case fans are. At least these fans on LOW will be reasonably quiet to all but SPCR-veterans.

Well I am the OP and I respectfully disagree with you as I pasted quotes from Antec's website where they mention quiet and silent multiple times when describing their cases.

Sure I was exaggerating a bit when I said there fans were lousy but there are fans that are quite cheap that wouldn't appreciably add to the price of their case but are much quieter. And the P182 is designed to be particularly quiet and sells at a bit of a premium so at least this case should have quieter fans.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Fri May 09, 2008 11:08 pm

wayner wrote:
jhhoffma wrote:Antec doesn't cater to the silentPC-er they cater to the designer PC-er. I for one, feel lucky that Antec decided to use the Tricool fans in their cases as they are light-years beyond what other OEM case fans are. At least these fans on LOW will be reasonably quiet to all but SPCR-veterans.
Well I am the OP and I respectfully disagree with you as I pasted quotes from Antec's website where they mention quiet and silent multiple times when describing their cases.

Sure I was exaggerating a bit when I said there fans were lousy but there are fans that are quite cheap that wouldn't appreciably add to the price of their case but are much quieter. And the P182 is designed to be particularly quiet and sells at a bit of a premium so at least this case should have quieter fans.

You gotta remember, there's the casual "quiet" crowd and the real silent crowd(aka us). Most casual quiet people find the antec tricools at low to be quiet. My friend just said his was perfectly fine for noise and he's using stock fans. That's how a lot of people I've talked to feel, only a select silence crowd would actually be unhappy and seek out better solutions. Some of us are picky, this is where we switch out the fans and live with what we like. It's not like slipstreams cost a lot, we're not spending a ton of money on what antec skimps on. Also the P182 is designed to be both quiet and handle pretty large heat. Big heat doesn't mesh with superquiet usually. You'd expect the fan on the video card to be louder than any tricool. This is where it's marketed toward.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Sat May 10, 2008 1:14 am

Antec's tricools are not bad but definately not suit for thiose who want SPCR-quiet compu. However if they would use Nexuses that would increase heftily their production costs. TriCools are quiet and server occasional gamers, peoples who want quiet but not silent computer and overclockers. You can change almost any Antec fan into another company fans... Except BigBoy...

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sat May 10, 2008 2:01 am

wayner wrote:
Sure I was exaggerating a bit when I said there fans were lousy but there are fans that are quite cheap that wouldn't appreciably add to the price of their case but are much quieter. And the P182 is designed to be particularly quiet and sells at a bit of a premium so at least this case should have quieter fans.

sigh... maybe it's me, but it just looks like going over and over the same old ground.

Do I need to make the same points again:

- The TriCools are quiet enough for most people

- Quieter fans would shift less air

- You can't please everybody all the time, all you can do is come up with the best compromise, and hope it's reflected in the balance sheet

I really don't know why you're making such an issue of this, it's not as though fans are expensive or difficult to replace, and people with specialised needs in terms of quietness or even higher airflow would probably prefer to source their own choice of aftermarket fan anyway. Personally I'd rather they omitted the fans altogether and knocked a bit off the purchase price, but then you'd get people moaning that if even budget cases can include fans as standard, why couldn't Antec...

walle · Post by **walle** » Sun May 11, 2008 3:42 pm

The reason why people might perceive the Tricools as quiet enough would be because theyâ€™re lacking sound reference points! and without different reference points to begin with, that very perception doesnâ€™t really say that much.

JoeWPgh · Post by **JoeWPgh** » Sun May 11, 2008 5:26 pm

I'm inclined to cut Antec some slack here. I doubt that most people ever give a moment's thought to what kind of fans they are using.

The Tri-cools are reasonably quiet on low, and move boatloads of air on high. This covers all possible uses for their product. There's more to a quiet computer than a quiet case. Antec provides a reasonable starting point for making a quiet computer, while keeping their cases useful for people who could care less about heat or power consumption in their quest for gaming performance. From Antec's perspective, the one size fits all Tri cool makes more sense than the latest low RPM, silent champion.

Obviously, I'd love it if Antec supplied quieter LOW RPM fans. But, I'm sure there's a lot pf people OCing their rigs to the max, while running 2 high end video cards and a 1000w PSU who would be lining up to sue Antec into oblivion for not proving enough air flow for their machines.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Sun May 11, 2008 7:50 pm

walle wrote:The reason why people might perceive the Tricools as quiet enough would be because theyâ€™re lacking sound reference points! and without different reference points to begin with, that very perception doesnâ€™t really say that much.

You are wrong. It's also ridiculously obvious to see why are you wrong. All you need to do is take a look at the TriCool. If quieter reference was all it took for people to choose quieter fans, then logically the fan speed switch in TriCool would be obsolete, because everyone would automatically use only the slowest speed. The mere existence of the switch and the fact that some people choose to use their fans at louder medium speed (or heaven forbid - at high speed) is enough to prove that preference is more important then lack of reference.

Not to mention you got it all backwards, it's not the lack of references, it's the abundance of references that affects their perception of quiet. Their older computers, EarthWatts psus, Intel stock coolers, their stock VGA fans, their Seagate Barracuda's (most sold hard drive in the market). Compared to them, Antec TriCools are whisper quiet.

And even if people were given the possibility to compare Nexus and TriCool side by side, many of them would still pick TriCool only because it's cheaper. Even if they were the same price, many people would choose the TriCool. The decision could even be made based solely on the fan color. I know many people even here at SPCR disliked the older Nexus because of its orange color. Noctua is suffering the same way with their brown fans. This shows, that even color can be more important priority then noise. Preferences and priorities...

To all people in this thread complaining about Antec advertising TriCools as silent, think about this:
The best sushi knives are made from carbon steel, because it allows a sharper blade then stainless steel. But carbon steel can rust and can therefore be a pain in the ass, so most people choose to buy a more convenient stainless steel knife so they can just throw it in the dishwasher. It would be kind of stupid to complain, that sushi knives made from stainless steel cannot be advertised as sharp, just because carbon steel knives are sharper.

When TriCools were released they were the quietest stock fans. At low speed even quieter then Nexus at 12V. Simply put, they were and probably still are the quietest stock case fans around. So why in hell wouldn't they be allowed to advertise their fans/cases as silent when they are quiet compared to rest?

walle · Post by **walle** » Mon May 12, 2008 8:37 am

Erssa wrote:All you need to do is take a look at the TriCool. If quieter reference was all it took for people to choose quieter fans, then logically the fan speed switch in TriCool would be obsolete, because everyone would automatically use only the slowest speed. The mere existence of the switch and the fact that some people choose to use their fans at louder medium speed (or heaven forbid - at high speed) is enough to prove that preference is more important then lack of reference.

I would argue that most of those running their Tricools above medium settings are those who think that they need to run their systems below sub zero levels, more so, then them actually perceiving the fan as being quiet enough at those settings, thereâ€™s a difference, IMHO.

Erssa wrote:Not to mention you got it all backwards, it's not the lack of references, it's the abundance of references that affects their perception of quiet. Their older computers, EarthWatts psus, Intel stock coolers, their stock VGA fans, their Seagate Barracuda's (most sold hard drive in the market). Compared to them, Antec TriCools are whisper quiet.

Perhaps I did, perhaps I didnâ€™t. Youâ€™re saying that its not lack of sound reference points but abundance of sound references points, now, I would say that if you view equally noisy components and components which are noisier as an abundance of sound reference points I would have to disagree, I would say that only getting sound reference points which is that of equally noisy, or noisier, just wouldnâ€™t cut it, in my book at least. thatâ€™s why you would need sound reference points which are below (less noisy) IMO, if not, you donâ€™t know anything else thus you end up with a key coordinate missing, that of a sound reference point which is (again) below, not equal, nor above.

Erssa wrote:And even if people were given the possibility to compare Nexus and TriCool side by side, many of them would still pick TriCool only because it's cheaper. Even if they were the same price, many people would choose the TriCool. The decision could even be made based solely on the fan color. I know many people even here at SPCR disliked the older Nexus because of its orange color. Noctua is suffering the same way with their brown fans. This shows, that even color can be more important priority then noise. Preferences and priorities...

Now weâ€™re talking preferences come colours and such, not related to quietness thou.

Erssa wrote:To all people in this thread complaining about Antec advertising TriCools as silent, think about this:
The best sushi knives are made from carbon steel, because it allows a sharper blade then stainless steel. But carbon steel can rust and can therefore be a pain in the ass, so most people choose to buy a more convenient stainless steel knife so they can just throw it in the dishwasher. It would be kind of stupid to complain, that sushi knives made from stainless steel cannot be advertised as sharp, just because carbon steel knives are sharper.

If you by that analogy meant that it would be stupid to remark on Antec when they advertise their Tricools as quiet (fan speed switch thingy?) then by all means, feel free to call me stupid!

Lastly,

Erssa wrote:â€¦ simply put, they were and probably still are the quietest stock case fans around. So why in hell wouldn't they be allowed to advertise their fans/cases as silent when they are quiet compared to rest?

Simple enough, the others provide no competition to begin with so using them as a measuring stick wouldnâ€™t/doesnâ€™t really say that much. Secondly, thereâ€™s always exceptions, perhaps it would be prudent to include Nexusâ€™s casings into this equation too, fan wise that is.

Perhaps we could agree to disagree?

Modo · Post by **Modo** » Mon May 12, 2008 8:58 am

JoeWPgh wrote:Obviously, I'd love it if Antec supplied quieter LOW RPM fans.

Take a S-FLEX rated at 1600rpm. You can easily make it 500rpm at Low, 1000rpm at Medium, and 1600rpm at High. It will offer complete silence at Low, while providing quite enough airflow at High to suit most (sane) people's cooling needs. However, I'm sure the S-FLEX costs more than 5 bucks to buy, even wholesale, so the argument about cheapness stands.

Vicotnik · Post by **Vicotnik** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:34 pm

walle wrote:The reason why people might perceive the Tricools as quiet enough would be because theyâ€™re lacking sound reference points! and without different reference points to begin with, that very perception doesnâ€™t really say that much.

A friend of mine uses a few Nexus fans @ 12v and thinks those are quiet enough. Still he has a reference point - my system. My system is obviously more quiet than his system, but he still feels that his own system is quiet enough.

Another friend of mine likes extreme performance and couldn't care less about noise or power consumption. He doesn't really need that level of performance, but he likes it anyway. I have a very hard time to understand why he feels that way. To me it's crazy.
He has of course looked at my system and agree that it's quiet, but probably thinks I'm crazy for not caring so much about performance.

The average PC owner is probably somewhere in between those two. Low noise is not worth the price or the effort for most people. And it's the same with gaming consoles. I would never buy an Xbox 360 or a PS3 for many reasons, but power consumption and noise are the two major things keeping me from owning one. I'm thinking about getting a Wii though.

Modo wrote:Take a S-FLEX rated at 1600rpm. You can easily make it 500rpm at Low, 1000rpm at Medium, and 1600rpm at High. It will offer complete silence at Low, while providing quite enough airflow at High to suit most (sane) people's cooling needs. However, I'm sure the S-FLEX costs more than 5 bucks to buy, even wholesale, so the argument about cheapness stands.

1600RPM would not be enough for the extreme overclocking crowd. And 500RPM would not be completely silent, technically speaking.

And a slipstream would probably push more air at the same noise level anyway, so the SPCR crowd would still get other fans.

I don't think this discussion is leading anywhere.. The perfect thing for me would be for Antec to ship the case without any fans at all, to keep the price at a minimum. But I realize that many (most?) users would like to have such an expensive case to come fully equipped and ready to be used at once.

Luminair · Post by **Luminair** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:36 pm

nick705 wrote: Do I need to make the same points again:

- The TriCools are quiet enough for most people

- Quieter fans would shift less air

- You can't please everybody all the time, all you can do is come up with the best compromise, and hope it's reflected in the balance sheet

Lets get real here. Nobody needs the P180 tricool fans on high. The fans are bad because they are dead cheap for antec. the end