The all-passive 0dba G4 cube challenge

[dan]

The mac G4 cube was fanless, passively cooled.


A 0dba passively cooled pc like mac G4 cube could be built if
1- use fanless PSU like seasonic
2- use a cpu-gpu
3- use powerful heatsink/pipe
4- ssd for HD memory
5- low voltage ddr3
6- motherboard that allows undervolting, or even underclocking
7- case with good ventilation

Since atoms are crap, what would be the most powerful cpu and what motherboard with undervolting and what heatpipe cooler would you use for passive 100% all-fanless, and what case that facilitate this like the G4 ?

This is more of a conceptual challenge.

[ntavlas]

A low power core i3 (preferably sandybridge) and a pico psu might be the best all round solution. Hfx and a few other specialists (like Atech Fabrication) make some heatsink cases meant for passive cooling, theyh don`t come cheap though. Otherwise you could try a case like the Lian Li pc-q08 along with a ninja series cooler (or a thermalright hr01/02).

[tim851]

Unless you want it to look like a Cube or be similarily small, it isn't really much of a challenge.

A mainboard with Intel H55/H57 chipset or H67, when they come back at rev1.1, any Core i3 on there, cool it with a Thermalright HR-02 or Scythe Orochi and that's it. You won't even need to underclock/-volt the Core i3. Go for a Pico PSU or Seasonic X-4x0. Low Power DDR3 is not needed, the 1w that might save you is not going to make a difference in anything.

The only real challenge would be if it's supposed to look like a Mac G4 Cube. That's a craftsman challenge though and less a Quiet PC one.
Alternatively you could buy an old Cube on eBay, they're finally selling for reasonable prices (well, not really reasonable if you consider they contain wholly outdated hardware). They have been modded to fit Mini-ITX boards. I don't know the exact internal dimensions, so I wouldn't know what size of cooler would fit in there. But depending on how you achieve the mod, a Scythe Mini Ninja (no longer sold retail) could fit.

[ces]

The only real challenge would be if it's supposed to look like a Mac G4 Cube..

How about a Lian Li Q07 or Q07 with a chimney? That may be the best you can do without your own engineering staff.

Take a look at this thread and some of the links on it.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=61451&p=532749#p532749

If it can be done at all, you will find the answer there.

[dan]

Hi, thanks for all the replies,

just to clarify, it doesn't have to look like a G4 cube, only be completely silent. I mention G4 cube as a case that is passively cooled.

What mid-tower ATX case would you use with a passively cooled heatpipe?

So is the core i3 the most powerful cpu-GPU you can get ? What about a more powerful one and then undervolt it?

[dan]

re: low voltage memory,

what % of power consumption is the saving?

[ces]

What mid-tower ATX case would you use with a passively cooled heatpipe?

So is the core i3 the most powerful cpu-GPU you can get ? What about a more powerful one and then undervolt it?

1. Read this thread and some of the links on it.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=61451&p=532749#p532749

2. Can we do ITX?

3. Right now the only only chip that makes sense in my opinion is a Sandy Bridge 2400 or 2500K, depending on how important the video is and whether you want to pay an extra $50 for 2x powerful video. They automatically undervolt and underclock themselves. They both idle at under 4 watts, about as close to zero as anyone needs to get. If left on 24/7 it is power usage at idle that determines overall energy usage. Even when in use, for most casual use they won't use more than 10 watts.

4. The clarkdales (the i3 I think you are referring to) just use a lot more energy even with half the number of cores. And you will never underclock and undervolt them to under 4 watts.... not like the 2400 or 3500K will underclock and undervolt itself.... ever.

5. No harm to do low voltage memory, but it just isn't going to do a lot either way.... I don't think. Anyone else, more knowledgeable than me want to chime in on this?

6. I think that after selecting a Sandy Bridge, the next most important energy conserving decision is the motherboard. Their energy usage varies significantly. Unfortunately the Intel mother boards generally do best in energy utilization, but they often use less than the best capacitors, which are the first parts to wear out in a motherboard. My personal preference is in the following order Gigabyte, Zotac, Asus.

[goatsandmonkeys]

3. Right now the only only chip that makes sense in my opinion is a Sandy Bridge 2400 or 2500K, depending on how important the video is and whether you want to pay an extra $50 for 2x powerful video. They automatically undervolt and underclock themselves. They both idle at under 4 watts, about as close to zero as anyone needs to get. If left on 24/7 it is power usage at idle that determines overall energy usage. Even when in use, for most casual use they won't use more than 10 watts.

4. The clarkdales (the i3 I think you are referring to) just use a lot more energy even with half the number of cores. And you will never underclock and undervolt them to under 4 watts.... not like the 2400 or 3500K will underclock and undervolt itself.... ever.

Sandy Bridge i3s come out february 20th. 2 65w models and a 35w model. also a i5 model that is 35w (fast/expensive). All have two cores prices 120-200 and speeds. I thought all the models share the power saving features.

[ces]

Sandy Bridge i3s come out february 20th. 2 65w models and a 35w model. also a i5 model that is 35w (fast/expensive). All have two cores prices 120-200 and speeds. I thought all the models share the power saving features.

Yes, that is my understanding.

Now I might just be getting greedy... but with 4 watts at idle, how much lower can you go? 2 watts? The 2400 just seems like a no brainer. But again it might be the greed... like wanting a 500hp car engine. No one needs it or will really use it... but still feels good to have just in case.

The 65w and 35w figures are maximum - like when you are burning them in to see how far you can push them. They are not representative of actual wattage... especially with this new generation of Intel Sandy Bridge CPUs that that automatically down volt and down clock themselves.

[tim851]

Low Voltage DDR3 saves you maybe 2-4% power, see here. From a passive cooling point of view, it's totally unnecessary. Regular 1.5v memory will do fine.

Ideally you would get a case that has vents at the top, so that the hot air can escape. Just like with the G4 Cube.
If you decide on a tower style heat sink (HR-02 is my favorite for a passive setup), make sure to install it so that it faces upwards.

As to how much an HR-02 can cool passively - that depends. I am certain* that a Dual-Core CPU (Core i3) is possible. Quad-Core? Well, a Core i5/i7 should be doable. But I've not found accounts of such a setup on the web yet. Everybody seems to employ at least one silent case fan. In the various reviews, the HR-02 cooled overclocked i7s of the 1366-variety, but that was always with case fan airflow.
If you want to be sure, get a Core i5-2x00S. They have a TDP of 65w, so I'm sure* they'll be fine.

If you were to mount a single 120/140mm fan on the HR-02 and have it spin at ~300rpm, you would not be able to hear it (unless you are a cat) and you could cool just about anything.

*no guarantees though

[ces]

As to how much an HR-02 can cool passively - that depends. I am certain* that a Dual-Core CPU (Core i3) is possible. Quad-Core? Well, a Core i5/i7 should be doable. But I've not found accounts of such a setup on the web yet. Everybody seems to employ at least one silent case fan. In the various reviews, the HR-02 cooled overclocked i7s of the 1366-variety, but that was always with case fan airflow.
If you want to be sure, get a Core i5-2x00S. They have a TDP of 65w, so I'm sure* they'll be fine.

There are some tests with the HR-01 plus running passive. I think SPRC even tested that once or twice.

I forget the details, but these were with older generation quad cores, and the results weren't that bad.

I suspect you can use the HR-01 plus to comfortably cool a more modern quad Sandy Bridge passively, even a 2600K. Though the only way to know for certain is to test it yourself. Worst case is might end up feeling the need to add a slow fan to the recipe. It can certainly handle it with a fan... with thermal capacity to spare.

[ces]

If you were to mount a single 120/140mm fan on the HR-02 and have it spin at ~300rpm

Have you tried that? I went looking for a 120mm fan I could run at 5 volts at 300 rpms or so.

All I could find was this:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article83 ... html#SS-SL
which received not much endorsement by SPCR because of its clicking

and these gentles typhoons

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... up_18.html

http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?s ... ig.png&1=1

But note, the slower GTs won't run at 5 volts. To be safe at 5 volts you need to use the 1150 rpm GT, which runs at 500 rpm (480 actually) at 5 volts.

Do you have any other recommendations or options for a 300 rpm fan?

[tim851]

There are some tests with the HR-01 plus running passive. I think SPRC even tested that once or twice

SPCR used a fan.

Under "normal" circumstances it will obviously cool a modern quad core passively. That is if the thing idle for 99% of the time. But what if the topic starter wanted to do some video encoding and stress all quad cores for prolongued time spans. What if s/he lives in a region where room temperatures of 30°C/90°F and more are possible.

I have an HR-01 Plus on a Core i3-530 (not overclocked ATM). I tried it passively (albeit not facing upwards, but to the back) and under load conditions CPU temp broke 60°C after a couple of minutes. I didn't continue to see where it would finally settle, as that was unacceptable for me. The progression of the temp rise led me to believe that 65°C were certainly possible. With the HR-01 facing upwards, it would have probably fared better. With the unamimously reported cooling capacity of an HR-02, I feel comfortable asserting that it would keep a Core i3 (Clarkdale or Sandy Bridge) under 60°C.

But even a Sandy Bridge quad core still uses - depending on the review - between 25 and 40 watts more than a Clarkdale and that is a lot if you consider the extreme conditions of a fully passive setup.

Do you have any other recommendations or options for a 300 rpm fan?

I currently have a Gentle Typhoon 1150. I use SpeedFan to regulate it. 35% is where it will spin up and that results in ~380 rpm. I had a Scythe Slip Stream that went as low as 300 as well, though I don't remember the model. No clicking.

As I've written in another topic, I believe that ALL fans suffer from extreme quality variation where bearing and motor noise is concerned. It seems to be a lottery if you get a good one or a dud.

[quest_for_silence]

under load conditions CPU temp broke 60°C after a couple of minutes. I didn't continue to see where it would finally settle, as that was unacceptable for me. The progression of the temp rise led me to believe that 65°C were certainly possible

Why do you think it should be such an unacceptable temp?

[ces]

1. Is anyone out there running an HR-01 plus passive? How is it working?

2. Seems like it should work OK for a Sandy Bridge quad as long as you are not using it for video encoding.

3. Keeping your motherboard VRMs and capacitors reasonably cool is a separate issue.

But I have not noticed any heating problems on my non-overclocked Asus P5GC-MX-1333. I can grope all over the board and not find anything hot except for this little transformer-like copper coil (does anyone know what it does). It is made out of solid large gauge copper wire wrapped around a small ring... with not all that many turns of wire - maybe 15 or 20 turns. There is no way it will be degraded by heat.

Maybe motherboard heat issues are just problems that overclockers run into?

[ces]

Why do you think it should be such an unacceptable temp?

I think comfort with different temp levels is a personal issue.

I would personally be very comfortable with 60 or 65C for video encoding, and lower temps for other activities.

[ces]

What mid-tower ATX case would you use with a passively cooled heatpipe?

1. Lian Li A05 or any other case with a bottom mounted PSU. Lian Li A05's unique airflow makes it particularly well suited for this in my opinion.

2. Or How about this little baby:

Broadway Com R-310 W 7.90; H 13.80; D 18.50;
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811162047

[goatsandmonkeys]

How about this
http://www.fractal-design.com/?view=pro ... =2&prod=59

It's mainly made for water colling, but it has an open top and LOTS of vents.

[tim851]

The Fractal Design seems perfect. And it looks swell too.

Why do you think it should be such an unacceptable temp?

Because it surpassed 60°C when my room was ~20°C. In the summertime, it's gotten up to ~35°C. Plus, it really got toasty inside the case without a venting fan.

I have ducted the exhaust fan to the CPU heatsink, it's spinning at 500 rpm and is inaudible (and I mean just that). CPU temps and case temps are drastically lower and I personally see absolutely no value in increasing them by dramatically just to get rid of a fan I can't hear unless I let it blow into my face.

[ces]

How about this
http://www.fractal-design.com/?view=pro ... =2&prod=59

It's mainly made for water colling, but it has an open top and LOTS of vents.

Nice case. Real Nice.

I think perhaps though, that it is better characterized as a superior substitute to a chimney case than as a case suitable to conversion into a chimney case. My reasoning is that it is too open and too airy. If you want to get some air current going you need to block some things off. I don't think you would want to do that to this case.

The Lian Li A05 better lends itself to a chimney as it already has a reputation of pooling hot air at the top, where you would cut the hold for a chimney.

I like the Lian Li A05. In fact I own one. I like the Fractal Arc Mini even more. It may be the perfect case for a passive cooling design... though I think my next case will be a smaller ITX case.

[dan]

What mid-tower ATX case would you use with a passively cooled heatpipe?

So is the core i3 the most powerful cpu-GPU you can get ? What about a more powerful one and then undervolt it?

1. Read this thread and some of the links on it.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=61451&p=532749#p532749

2. Can we do ITX?

3. Right now the only only chip that makes sense in my opinion is a Sandy Bridge 2400 or 2500K, depending on how important the video is and whether you want to pay an extra $50 for 2x powerful video. They automatically undervolt and underclock themselves. They both idle at under 4 watts, about as close to zero as anyone needs to get. If left on 24/7 it is power usage at idle that determines overall energy usage. Even when in use, for most casual use they won't use more than 10 watts.

4. The clarkdales (the i3 I think you are referring to) just use a lot more energy even with half the number of cores. And you will never underclock and undervolt them to under 4 watts.... not like the 2400 or 3500K will underclock and undervolt itself.... ever.

5. No harm to do low voltage memory, but it just isn't going to do a lot either way.... I don't think. Anyone else, more knowledgeable than me want to chime in on this?

6. I think that after selecting a Sandy Bridge, the next most important energy conserving decision is the motherboard. Their energy usage varies significantly. Unfortunately the Intel mother boards generally do best in energy utilization, but they often use less than the best capacitors, which are the first parts to wear out in a motherboard. My personal preference is in the following order Gigabyte, Zotac, Asus.

Hey if you want to describe an mini-itx using off the shelf components that is perfectly silent, with no moving parts, it would certainly be worth describing in this thread.


I mentioned the G4 cube as an example of a nearly no-moving part pc. I'm not sure SSD is at the price point where it can replace the HD.


This is, after all, silent pc review, not very quiet pc review

I mentioned seasonic fanless as I was not aware of smaller form factor PSU that are also fanless.

[tim851]

There's cases like the Coolermaster TC-100 or the HFX Micro. They're on the expensive side though.

[khaakon]

I myself is considering new hardware in the same ballpark, with the same goals - except the part with "off the shelf components" - I like to (try to) mod some if I think I have to
So, atm I have a good eye to Lian Li PC-Q11 without ATX power supply, but with a picoPSU or similar solution ([whatshisname] makes a good alt) ofc with a phat brick w/o fan. Then you can put a large cooler on the CPU, if you also remove the CD tray (w/ screws and who really needs it these days) and mod the top for more ventilation you have yourself a nice chimney. If you dare then, you remove the big fan and bracket. Theres room for 2x 2,5" drives @ the bottom (SSD R0 anyone ).

I am curious how it would work w/o any drilling, because that is a bit hardcore..
I am also curious how it would do with a supersilent fan in place, and a passive low power graphics card.

[quest_for_silence]

Why do you think it should be such an unacceptable temp?

Because it surpassed 60°C when my room was ~20°C. In the summertime, it's gotten up to ~35°C. Plus, it really got toasty inside the case without a venting fan.

I have ducted the exhaust fan to the CPU heatsink, it's spinning at 500 rpm and is inaudible (and I mean just that). CPU temps and case temps are drastically lower and I personally see absolutely no value in increasing them by dramatically just to get rid of a fan I can't hear unless I let it blow into my face.

Your temps as fanless are just fine, IME (HR-01+E5400), the toasty case is just what actually happens to fanless systems which rely just on convection: maybe a fanless system is just unacceptable to you.

I don't agree (no more) on ducting the HR-01 to an exhaust, why don't you attach the fan directly on the heatsink?

[Tephras]

Since atoms are crap, what would be the most powerful cpu and what motherboard with undervolting and what heatpipe cooler would you use for passive 100% all-fanless, and what case that facilitate this like the G4 ?

Silverstone built a fanless system in their FT03 case with a Phenom II X4 920(125W TDP), the CPU cooler used was the Scythe Orochi. There's a video demonstration of the system during a prime95 run here.

[tim851]

I don't agree (no more) on ducting the HR-01 to an exhaust, why don't you attach the fan directly on the heatsink?

I tried:
- 1 CPU fan, 1 exhaust fan
- 1 CPU fan, no exhaust fan
- no CPU fan, 1 exhaust fan
- no CPU fan, ducted to exhaust fan

The last option gave the best results. There is no penalty on CPU temps compared to mounting the fan directly. All CPU heat is moved out of the case immediately. Mounting the fan directly with the fan clips resulted in quiet, but still very audible vibration noises at certain frequencies and case temps were a little higher (~3c).

[ces]

Silverstone built a fanless system in their FT03 case with a Phenom II X4 920(125W TDP), the CPU cooler used was the Scythe Orochi. There's a video demonstration of the system during a prime95 run here.

Looks like they are running at about 54C. It is hard to get a good eye view of how they are doing it though. Can someone articulate what they did to get it to work so well... in a manner that can be translated to a different case?

[ces]

no CPU fan, ducted to exhaust fan

You know Thermalright has a special duct for the HR-01 plus specifically to faciliate this setup.

Seems to me it would do even better if you used the duct to bring in fresh cold air (probably 10 to 15C cooler than in case air). Did you ever think of doing that? Can I talk you into reversing the fan and seeing what happens in that scenario?

Lian Li uses similar air flow direction in their A05 case.

[ces]

I myself is considering new hardware in the same ballpark, with the same goals - except the part with "off the shelf components" - I like to (try to) mod some if I think I have to
So, atm I have a good eye to Lian Li PC-Q11 without ATX power supply, but with a picoPSU or similar solution ([whatshisname] makes a good alt) ofc with a phat brick w/o fan. Then you can put a large cooler on the CPU, if you also remove the CD tray (w/ screws and who really needs it these days) and mod the top for more ventilation you have yourself a nice chimney. If you dare then, you remove the big fan and bracket. Theres room for 2x 2,5" drives @ the bottom (SSD R0 anyone ).

Me too.

[tim851]

You know Thermalright has a special duct for the HR-01 plus specifically to faciliate this setup.

Yes. I've got two of them. One for the CPU heatsink and one to move my bottom intake fan closer to the GPU. I reversed this one, so the bottom intake fan is now my bottom exhaust fan, it sits right up against the GPU and draws fresh air through the PCI slots and the side panel vent and exhausts it through the front.

Seems to me it would do even better if you used the duct to bring in fresh cold air (probably 10 to 15C cooler than in case air). Did you ever think of doing that? Can I talk you into reversing the fan and seeing what happens in that scenario?

I did this a while ago, but without the duct. I had no discrete graphics card then, so case temps weren't a priority. Now, with a GTX 460 in there putting out 120w while gaming, I really don't see no use doing this now. My CPU temps are perfect (30c idle, 54c prime, cpu fan at 500 rpm) and the case temps are swell too. Reversing the fan would lower the CPU temps unnecessarily but increase case temps.