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 Post subject: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:51 am 
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Hi,

over the last couple of weeks i read a lot of articles here on the board, as i plan to make some changes to my PC. Lots of interesting articles and reviews! That being said, i need some help in making up my mind... Stick with water cooling or switch to fan based system?

Currently i run Core i5 2,67ghz, HD 5870 system which is based on a heavily altered case that i built about 10 years ago. It based on a 420x420 radiator which is no longer available on the market (something like http://www.aliexpress.com/item/420mm-14 ... 63104.html). In the original build i used a water cooled PSU, so the only noisy elements left were HDD and pump, as i cooled my old system passively. Back then no cases existed (to my knowledge) that would fit the big radiator, so i made physical changes to some random case that was wide enough for water cooling.
Since my last upgrade (to my core i5, about 4 years ago), i have to turn on additional fans especially in the summer months (up to 35°C ambient temperature).

That being said, i am kind of a fetishist, as i really cant stand computer making any sort of noise while i am working. My ambient noise level is very low. When i play games, i usually use headphones (RTS, FPS, Grand strategy games), so noise level wouldnt bother me as much. I really dont mind doing some changes myself, and i dont mind spending some money, as i typically use my systems for years.

Where i need help:
Should i make a new system based on water cooling, or should i pick a semi passive fan based system?
In either case please share your advice on components you would recommend taking a look at. Especially advice on case, psu, gfk, cpu, board would be highly appreciated.

My personal ranking of importance:
1. Silence.
2. Performance when i play games (currently mostly DOTA), but wearing headphones for this.
3. Easy maintenance (HDD access, etc) as my current case is really a pain

Components i would reuse:
2x Samsung 840 Pro SSD
2x WD 2TB disks


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Location: ITALY
It mostly depends of your monitor resolution: up to Full HD you could even go almost fanless, as DOTA is not very much demanding, graphics-wise.

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:01 pm 
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I do have dual 22" Samsung monitors which i might swap for 24" at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
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Location: Guatemala
Agathon wrote:
Should i make a new system based on water cooling
This is up to you, for me watercooling has a space still for silence seekers, but when the hardware is massive or massive overcloking. Personally i prefer cooling by air, its simpler and more reliable, and much easier to tweak than building a quiet water setup. Unless the cooling need exceeds what air can do quietly i dont recommend water, but if you like to try it go for it.

Agathon wrote:
should i pick a semi passive fan based system?
Personally i dont fear fans, in fact i like to have as much as i can, just driven to inaudible levels, but the difference the first fans do in my experience is dramatic, once you add 2 or 3 fans, the cooling starts to decline in terms of the gain in temperatures, but this is very specific on each setup and ambient, so on...

Agathon wrote:
In either case please share your advice on components you would recommend taking a look at. Especially advice on case, psu, gfk, cpu, board would be highly appreciated.
Depends a lot into you budget and how high is your resolution, dota is not a very demanding game, but still going into very high resolutions team fights might be where it counts. My suggestion are

CPU: Intel Core i4 4670
Motherboard: ASUS H87-PRO imo the best offering from asus, but its almost out of stock everywhere, so the PLUS would be my pick.
GPU: MSI GTX750Ti or MSI GTX760 (or whatever your budget allows)
PSU: Kingwin LZP 550, reviewed by SPCR and got the editors choice, my pick for a platinum semi passive psu.
CASE: Fractal Design Define R4, really a very versitile case, great cable management, easy to access hdd, and 140mm case fans. Atm on sale for $80, hard to find something better for that.
Case fans: I always recommend to test the included, but with so cheap Antec True Quiet 140s are, imo its well worth the value, really good sonic signature and you can drop them 200rpm on Asus FanXpert2, but you do need to balance it to get enough cooling for your components, regardless the range on the fans is ideal for quiet setup.
CPU Cooler: Scythe Mugen 4 or Noctua NH-U14S, both really good coolers, i favor a little more noctua for their fan able to drop super low, but cost more aswell while Mugen 4 seems one of the best quiet coolers on the market for its price. Both were reviewed by SPCR and got the editors choice.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:13 am 
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Thank Abdula for sharing your advice!

Its one of the things i learned here when i read posts about fans. While it is absolutely logic, that more fans allow you to run each one of them slower, i was always thinking: if its turning, it makes noise, its bad.
I did do my best to get my water cooled system silent, but i never really succeeded. My first pump was simply too laud, i switched to a pump enclosed in a noise damped case. The next pain point were the drives, i experimented with icyybox hdd cases, but i suspect them to not cool disks appropriately as i had 2 disks meltdowns (raptor hdd).

Currently the noise factors are:
1. Seassonic PSU, should be mostly passive, but its not. The fan can not be easily exchanged and its making noise.
2. The pump, even though its enclosed and decoupled, its causing a lot vibrations and a constant "mmmmmmm" kind of sound
2. the 3 eternal fans i use to additionally cool the 420 radiator, which is no surprise as they er exposed to years of dust.

When you speak about not fearing fans, what would you recommend to control their speed?
My current resolution is 1680x1050, 2x 22" Samsung screen. I will probably exchange them at some point for more modern screens.

About the components you suggested:
Case: The Fractal seems to be the case of choice on this board, although i read some articles about corsair cases and some others it still seems to be commonly used case. Would you recommend additional case dampening steps?
GPU: I read the posts about the 750TI and 760, seems to be a really good option, the 750TI even looks like it could be passively cooled (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gef ... ,3757.html) I guess you would go for the MSI cooler, instead of replacing the cooler on another card?
CPU: Could you elaborate your CPU choice? I didnt delve into CPUs that much yet and only heard that one should pick K series over others.
PSU: Do you know if the fan can be changed once its getting old?


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:57 am 
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Location: Guatemala
Agathon wrote:
Case: The Fractal seems to be the case of choice on this board, although i read some articles about corsair cases and some others it still seems to be commonly used case. Would you recommend additional case dampening steps?
Im using mine without any mods, i have very quiet fans atm (but because they are spin down to 225rpms), my PC stays in idle at least 60% of time, i dont game as much as i used to, i still do but less and only when friends are around. But even gaming i restricted my fans not to pass 650rpm where they are quiet. I think the R4 dont need much as long you chose quiet components, only thing that it misses is something like antec solo hdd suspension, but i cant hear my mechanical even hard mounted, using ssds as you main source have reduce dramatically the access to my mechanical hdd that i only use for local storage. I personally don't like to have many mechanical hdds on my main pc, for the consumption and specially the noise, so i prefer to have a server for the big storage and a single small hdd for things that i use locally or constantly, but needs are up to each user.


Agathon wrote:
GPU: I read the posts about the 750TI and 760, seems to be a really good option, the 750TI even looks like it could be passively cooled (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gef ... ,3757.html) I guess you would go for the MSI cooler, instead of replacing the cooler on another card?
What ever route you persue is fine, i would suggest to get he MSI version and try it first, later you can go aftermarket if you in fact need a more quiet setup. I just helped a friend build on MSI GTX750TI and to me its quiet, i wouldnt change it, and i like to change stuff =). But we all have different needs or desires and even ambient noise is different for all of us, so just test it and see how it goes from there, you can always upgrade the cooler if you feel like it.

Agathon wrote:
CPU: Could you elaborate your CPU choice? I didnt delve into CPUs that much yet and only heard that one should pick K series over others.
I dont overclock much anymore, just when i build to do some benches and see my roll on the silicone lotery, but i go stock after that, i feel there is no need for me, games run fine, i dont encode as much as i used to, and more voltage will turn into more heat and thus my fans needing to speed up more to sustain a viable setup, and ending up with more noise. I do buy K more for the resell value, most of my friends are overclockers, so they wont buy a none K, or they will ask for huge discount, for me was $10 more at the time, so im fine with doing the extra investment, and even have the flexibility into OCing down the road if i need to, but my days of overclocking are over, im getting old, and i just like quiet more than performance, but each to its own, i have full respect for overclocking people, its a hobby and we all have to do what makes us happy. If you want go with K, its a good choice aswell, but if you do consider also going into a Z87 board, so you can make some use, there are some cheaper motherboards like ASUS Z87-PLUS for FanXpert2 for the Antec True Quiet 140s, but if you dont go this route, for example if you go into PWM fans, then i would consider also MSI Z87-G43, to me one of the best values motherboards out there.

Agathon wrote:
PSU: Do you know if the fan can be changed once its getting old?
If you want to totally avoid the fans on the PSU, or the trouble of swaping fans later on, and willing to spend a little more, then consider KINGWIN STR-500 Fanless Power Supply or Rosewill SilentNight-500 Fan-less Active PFC Power Supply, both are manufactured by the same OEM, Superflower, and were reviewed by SPCR and got editors choice, check the reviews for more info, Fanless PSUs: Kingwin Stryker STR-500 and Rosewill Silent Night 500 Platinum 80 Plus. This PSU has also been reviewed by high regarded PSU sites like Jonnyguru, Techpowerup, HardwareSecrets and came really well in all of them, so its a solid PSU, and platinium, should have no trouble with your setup.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:26 am 
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Agathon wrote:
I do have dual 22" Samsung monitors which i might swap for 24" at some point.


So the GTX750Ti is a viable option: about that, I don't agree with Abula, and he knows. I would pick the cheapest one (here it's the Palit Storm X) and slap an Accelero S1 Plus on it: money-wise in Italy such a combo is a more convenient option than buying an MSI Gaming equivalent card, and it will be surely quieter.

If you need more power, I would consider running a pair of them, rather than a GTX 760, which cannot go fanless: if you should opt for such a videocard-class, the quietest option is slapping a Prolimatech Mk.26 with one or two slow running large fans on it (that's a quad-slot solution, however).

For the CPU, providing you won't overclock (and there's no need with games like DOTA), a NoFan95 heatsink could be the way to go: running fanless your rig will be noticeably hotter than a watercooled one, but it should still run safely with any Intel Core i5 or comparable Xeon inside.

The PSU may be the already advised fanless SuperFlower, even if I would rather a semi-fanless one from the same manufacturer.

About the case fans, going fanless it's advisable to run at least a couple of them, maybe three: with reference to turbulent flow, any 140mm fan will be surely noticeable over 350rpm, any 120mm fan will be so over 500rpm. The 120mm usually spin noticeably quieter, but they are also a tad less effective (but not so much at those very low paces) while slimmer fans are usually even further preferable with reference to noise signature (but they're also less effective than thicker ones).

About the motherboard, I would go for an Intel Extreme, or an ASRock/ASUS/MSI but one with a large number of controllable fan headers (at least three beyond the CPU one).

Eventually, with reference to the case, I would rather a wide open one, high airflow one, like a Fractal Arc R2 or a Corsair 450D, but swapping their fans with some of the best SPCR recommended ones (Antec, BeQuiet, NoiseBlocker, Scythe and a few others), and I would add a pair of Noise Magic hard drive cages for your mechanical HDDs. Particularly the Corsair should offer an easy build and manteinance.

Last but not least, if the UEFI of choice should not turn out enough flexible, a convenient SpeedFan setup should tame the case fans to the desired level.

Such a rig should be a completely unobtrusive DOTA workstation, plenty of power and quietness: have a good luck with your build.

Just a final note: if you mind, a GTX 750Ti/Core i5 rig could be compatible with a completely fanless Streacom FC8 Evo solution, check than option in case.

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:45 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:

So the GTX750Ti is a viable option: about that, I don't agree with Abula, and he knows. I would pick the cheapest one (here it's the Palit Storm X) and slap an Accelero S1 Plus on it: money-wise in Italy such a combo is a more convenient option than buying an MSI Gaming equivalent card, and it will be surely quieter.

If you need more power, I would consider running a pair of them, rather than a GTX 760, which cannot go fanless: if you should opt for such a videocard-class, the quietest option is slapping a Prolimatech Mk.26 with one or two slow running large fans on it (that's a quad-slot solution, however).

Indeed it is a valid option. The reason why i would go for the 760 is only that it has more power and by that have a longer live expectancy. I am a bit afraid of a 4 slot solution, as it basically takes most of the space. When dual cards grew popular, there were some significant issues with mirco hickups, as graphics wouldnt be redered as smoothly as possible. I guess i would prefere 760 over SLI.

quest_for_silence wrote:

For the CPU, providing you won't overclock (and there's no need with games like DOTA), a NoFan95 heatsink could be the way to go: running fanless your rig will be noticeably hotter than a watercooled one, but it should still run safely with any Intel Core i5 or comparable Xeon inside.

would you under volt a CPU to reduce thermal load?

quest_for_silence wrote:

About the case fans, going fanless it's advisable to run at least a couple of them, maybe three: with reference to turbulent flow, any 140mm fan will be surely noticeable over 350rpm, any 120mm fan will be so over 500rpm. The 120mm usually spin noticeably quieter, but they are also a tad less effective (but not so much at those very low paces) while slimmer fans are usually even further preferable with reference to noise signature (but they're also less effective than thicker ones).

I guess the same rules apply as for wind energy. Even a small increase in diameter is a very significant increase in energy created. Reason is, that the end point of the rotor blade travels the longest distance. A 10% increase in spread, leads to about 20% more effectiveness.

That being said, are 200m fans an option in your opinion?

quest_for_silence wrote:
Eventually, with reference to the case, I would rather a wide open one, high airflow one, like a Fractal Arc R2 or a Corsair 450D, but swapping their fans with some of the best SPCR recommended ones (Antec, BeQuiet, NoiseBlocker, Scythe and a few others), and I would add a pair of Noise Magic hard drive cages for your mechanical HDDs. Particularly the Corsair should offer an easy build and manteinance.

Could you share a link to a Noise Magic hard drive thingy? Not 100% sure what you mean by that.

Currently i have a tower case, and i actually like it, if stuff is not packed. Is the door from the R4 actually helping in noise reduction?
The ARC R2 has its connectors on top, which could be annoying, as the case is under my desk. Will have to check measurements.

quest_for_silence wrote:
Just a final note: if you mind, a GTX 750Ti/Core i5 rig could be compatible with a completely fanless Streacom FC8 Evo solution, check than option in case.

Interesting! Thanks for the idea!


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:16 am 
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Agathon wrote:
I guess i would prefere 760 over SLI.


If you rank silence over performance, IMVHO it's not very advisable: although relatively quiet, a GTX-760 with a stock custom cooler (even a fairly good one like the TwinFrozr or the DirectCU) is far from silent, as almost always they have not customisable idle speed.
A Prolimatech-equipped one would give better noise levels (and maybe also temps), but it requires a lot of space and probably a dedicated fan header on the mobo.


Agathon wrote:
would you under volt a CPU to reduce thermal load?


Well, IME it's not strictly necessary, but I usually do it: besides, very often it comes as a free bonus.


Agathon wrote:
That being said, are 200m fans an option in your opinion?


IME I never found a fan larger than 140mm which can be run almost silently, and I've run a bunch of them (mostly Antec, Phobya, Corsair, Silverstone).

Besides, very often the largest fans tend towards to be either clicky or droning at very low rotational speeds, even better, noticeably more (clicky or droning) than their smaller counterparts.


Agathon wrote:
Could you share a link to a Noise Magic hard drive thingy? Not 100% sure what you mean by that.


I'm used to mount those ones everywhere I can:

http://www.noisemagic.com/index.php?cPa ... ce58cd2246


Agathon wrote:
Is the door from the R4 actually helping in noise reduction?


If you'd go almost fanless, then IMHO you should not striclty require doors or damping lining: and in case, a couple of Magic Fleece, or similar noise absorbing sheets, right in front of the mechanical hard drives may help a bit.
On the other hand, with somewhat more conventional systems (just for example, running a GTX-760 Gaming paired with a Thermalright HR-02 Macho for the CPU, or using a main top exhaust fan), probably a closed enclosure like the R4 could do a better job at dampening the overall noise.

Just as side note, I've run a similar thermal load (I mean, about 200-250W combined TDP) at first inside an Antec Solo, and then in an Antec One Hundred (a less quality and far lighter, but more open, enclosure): with fans running extremely low, usually temps and noise level were slightly better inside the latter one, I guess due to the superior airflow (I was cooling passively the CPU with a ducted Thermalright HR-01).
Take note, however, that system was very very quiet, but it's not utterly silent.

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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:31 pm 
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Thanks for the advice regarding SLI, good point really.

I did some reading on the FC8 Evo case, and i think its kinda small. I found some similar cases that are bigger and still use heatpipes, but im not convinced that they are actually capable of what they claim to be. Well at least i didnt find definite information what TDP they can manage yet... and what if they are getting to hot? Put a dayson next to it?

Abula wrote:
If you want to totally avoid the fans on the PSU, or the trouble of swaping fans later on, and willing to spend a little more, then consider KINGWIN STR-500 Fanless Power Supply or Rosewill SilentNight-500 Fan-less Active PFC Power Supply, both are manufactured by the same OEM, Superflower, and were reviewed by SPCR and got editors choice, check the reviews for more info, Fanless PSUs: Kingwin Stryker STR-500 and Rosewill Silent Night 500 Platinum 80 Plus. This PSU has also been reviewed by high regarded PSU sites like Jonnyguru, Techpowerup, HardwareSecrets and came really well in all of them, so its a solid PSU, and platinium, should have no trouble with your setup.


Thats a good advice Abula thank you! I put that PSU on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:26 am 
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Inaudible at less than 1 meter away during light to medium loads. Whispers just a slight bit on the heaviest loads I digitally limit the speeds to 75%.

Image
Image

I would worry about mechanical drives as there's no way to muffle those with this setup.


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:07 am 
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Finally i got some time to start working on the shopping list. Please share your advise.

First of all, i decided to go for air instead of water based cooling. Reason for it is, that you can always switch to water if air doesnt work if you make the right case choice and that it is more convenient to maintain. At the same time, water doeesnt give a huge advantage for silent computing as it did 10 years ago.

Case:
I look at many cases in the last weeks, but i thing ill go for the Fractal R2 XL because my case is standing below my desk and its always a bit easier to work in a bigger case.

Mainboard:
I will go for an ASUS board. I have a maximus at the moment, and i am very satisfied with it. However i didnt really make a choice yet, as there are new boards announced now. They have x97 chipset and seem to have some benefits like an updated Fan management.
http://rog.asus.com/317562014/maximus-m ... herboards/

CPU:
I picked the 4670k but i read something about 4690 being slightly better. What is your opinion?

Monitors:
1 week ago one of my monitors died, so i ordered 2x 24" Dell P2414H.

PSU:
Superflower was acquired by caseking it seems. I honestly didnt had the time yet to understand their naming convention. Do you know of any quality drop since the take over in december? The OEM versions of the other manufactures seem to run out of stock, so i assume the OEM contracts were canceled.
http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/Net ... 0_401.html

GFX:
Hard choice really. No idea yet what i will end up with. Either i go for a GTX 750TI (x 2) or the GTX 760. Running just one GTX 750TI seems to be a not that significant performance increase to my current system. So either go dual mode, passive, or go for the 4 slot solution of the 760. Couldnt decide yet.

RAM, Fans, etc.. no idea yet.


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:10 am 
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x97 mobo: Don't be an early adopter without understanding the risks. Every Intel chipset has had bugs at release. Some were fixed with BIOS updates/ some took a chip revision. Besides that, all mobo's spin out a lot of UEFI revisions in the first 2-3 months. Wait until ~August.

case: Lots of room in the R4.

cpu: Go with K if you plan to overclock sometime. Go with non-K if you don't plan to OC and want to save a few $'s. Along with the x97 chipset, there will be some new Haswell SKUs.

Quote:
Superflower was acquired by caseking it seems.

Huh? Can you point to a link about this. Doesn't seem likely.

gfx: If the most demanding game you play is DOTA @ 1080p, you won't need anything more powerful than the 750Ti.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:44 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
x97 mobo: Don't be an early adopter without understanding the risks. Every Intel chipset has had bugs at release. Some were fixed with BIOS updates/ some took a chip revision. Besides that, all mobo's spin out a lot of UEFI revisions in the first 2-3 months. Wait until ~August.

good point. thank you.

Quote:
Quote:
Superflower was acquired by caseking it seems.

Huh? Can you point to a link about this. Doesn't seem likely.

There is a statement on their .de website stating that caseking will take over their agendas. Right on the main page.
Or is that only a branch office?


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:53 pm 
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I looked at the Googlish version of the caseking.de homepage and didn't see anything about Superflower other than a link to their Leadex product page.

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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Agathon wrote:
There is a statement on their .de website stating that caseking will take over their agendas. Right on the main page.
Or is that only a branch office?


Last december Caseking took the exclusive distribution of Super Flower PSUs in Germany (and that's been a good news).

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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:54 pm 
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Agathon wrote:
Hard choice really. No idea yet what i will end up with. Either i go for a GTX 750TI (x 2) or the GTX 760. Running just one GTX 750TI seems to be a not that significant performance increase to my current system. So either go dual mode, passive, or go for the 4 slot solution of the 760. Couldnt decide yet..


Just a note: I checked for myself, and I realized that the GTX 750Ti unfortunately does not support SLI.
Some leakages talk about of an upcoming GTX 750Ti Boost with SLI support, but it's far from certain and above all not near in the future.
So, that option does not exist, sorry for misleading you.

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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:39 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
I looked at the Googlish version of the caseking.de homepage and didn't see anything about Superflower other than a link to their Leadex product page.


website i ment was superflower http://www.super-flower.de/

quest_for_silence wrote:

Just a note: I checked for myself, and I realized that the GTX 750Ti unfortunately does not support SLI.
Some leakages talk about of an upcoming GTX 750Ti Boost with SLI support, but it's far from certain and above all not near in the future.
So, that option does not exist, sorry for misleading you.


thank you, actually makes my decision easier i think :)

any other commentS?


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:42 am 
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I am happy to report that the new pc has been assembled.

Fractal R2 XL
Super Flower 550W
MSI Gamer 7
MSI GTX 760
Core i5 4670
Noctua U14S

i changed to MSI mainboard against my initial intention to go for an Asus board, because i read some negative comments about the fan control on Asus boards and because i liked the MSI feature of shutting down components that are not being used. The Noctua cooler was a bit tricky to attach, as there is exactly zero mm space between cooler and RAM. I actually had to detach the elastic nobs from the cooler fan to be able to fit it in. Rotating by 90° to face top, wasnt an option in my opinion.

Compared to my old rig, the noise level is now considerably lower. The case is currently inaudible at a distance of about 2.5m. However when sitting at the desk, it is still too loud.
Particularly the supplied fans of the case are producing some strange clicking sound which is kinda annoying. I also noticed that the case fans are actually spinning too fast by default.

The board has 4pin fan connectors, what alternatives fans would you advice? 120 or 140? would you increase from 3 fans to 4?

Played some games yesterday, and cpu temp was steady at around 38° with 26° ambient temp. CPU fan was between 350 and 400 rpm


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 5:06 am 
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Agathon wrote:
Particularly the supplied fans of the case are producing some strange clicking sound which is kinda annoying. I also noticed that the case fans are actually spinning too fast by default.


How did you connected those fans? Can you monitor their speed?


Agathon wrote:
The board has 4pin fan connectors, what alternatives fans would you advice? 120 or 140? would you increase from 3 fans to 4?


As said - I think by Abula -, whether those headers are true PWM ones (I checked the manual but it doesn't look so, therefore I recommed to check by yourself), you may look at Noctua A14 PWM fans, expensive but they can go low. Otherwise, whether they are voltage controlled header, give a look to Antec TrueQuiet 140 (also as they can go kinda low).

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 5:13 am 
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Agathon wrote:
However when sitting at the desk, it is still too loud. Particularly the supplied fans of the case are producing some strange clicking sound which is kinda annoying.
Are you connecting the fans directly to the motherboard headers? if so what headers? SYS_FAN? if so go in the bios and into MONITORING, go into SYS_FAN and check they are at 50%.

Have you tried the supplied fan controlled on the case? if you set it low it should go very close to 400rpms, while i dont use it could be a pretty cheap way to lower the noise, but personally i like dynamic control by the motherboard, this is why i dont use it.

Agathon wrote:
The board has 4pin fan connectors, what alternatives fans would you advice? 120 or 140? would you increase from 3 fans to 4?
First you need to understand how MSI works, the gaming 7 is the new version of the GD as far as i can tell, so it should be the same as mine, the board has two type of 4pins,

1) Voltage controlled Headers
SYS_FAN1, SYS_FAN2 and SYS_FAN3 are 4pin physically but they will be voltage controlled, they have higher restrictions, in mine is 50% the least they can drop off.

2) PWM fan headers
CPU_FAN1 and CPU_FAN2 are true PWM fan headers, in this headers you can only use 4pin PWM fans, like you are using atm with the NH-U14S that comes with a NF-A15 PWM, this type of headers can drop down to 12.5% PWM and increment in 12.5%, so you can set it up on the bios from 12.5, 25, 37.5, 50, 62.5, 75, 87.5 and 100%.

Agathon wrote:
what alternatives fans would you advice? 120 or 140?
There are more options on 120s, but at the same time i prefer to take the advantage of the 140mm fans support the R4 and XL have, if you wish to read some check First 140 mm Fan Roundup: Noctua, Phanteks, Xigmatek and Second 140 mm Fan Roundup: Antec, bequiet!, Corsair, Scythe, in there you will find that Phantek and Antec are among the best options for 140s.

But you do need to decide how you will control them.

1) Voltage controlled, i would pick Antec True Quiet 140, they are cheap and have some of the best sonic signature of 140s, they are quiet fans, but they also dont spin that high. I leave you a screenshot of the range they can work out, its tricky to get them 200rpms though with an MSI motherboard, on CA_steve build you can see he manages to takes them to 400rpm using the SYS_FAN header at 50% on the bios.

Image

2) PWM controlled, here there are very few options, specially that can drop that low, my suggestion is Noctua NF-A14 PWM, their sonic signature is not as good as Antecs, but they will drop super low on an MSI 4pin PWM fan header on pure bios, CPU_FAN1 or CPU_FAN2, this is what i did, you just need to get a a PWM fan splitter like GELID PWM Splitter Cable CA-PWM-03 or Swiftech 8-Way PWM Cable Splitter, connect them to the CPU_FAN2 and the fans to the splitter and then go into the bios and set up either 12.5% or 25% as the minimum PWM and they should drop between 225rpms to 400rpms. Just a warning the fans are quiet below 650rpms, but higher than that starts to get noticeble, higher than 900rpms they are loud, but i also restricted them so they cant go that high on the bios.

Image

Agathon wrote:
would you increase from 3 fans to 4?
Yes, i would go with 4, the two fronts and bottom as in and the back one as out. You can click on signature desktop for a very similar build with 4 fans on R4 which is almost the same as you XL.

If you need help setting up the bios, let me know.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:08 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
How did you connected those fans? Can you monitor their speed?

The case has 3pin fans installed. I connected them directly with the mainboard (4pin)

quest_for_silence wrote:

As said - I think by Abula -, whether those headers are true PWM ones (I checked the manual but it doesn't look so, therefore I recommed to check by yourself), you may look at Noctua A14 PWM fans, expensive but they can go low. Otherwise, whether they are voltage controlled header, give a look to Antec TrueQuiet 140 (also as they can go kinda low).

The manual is not conclusive about it. From what i can tell, the mainboard has 4pin connectors but all but the 2 CPU fan headers are not real PWN fan ports. Is there a definite way to find out?

Abula wrote:
Are you connecting the fans directly to the motherboard headers? if so what headers? SYS_FAN? if so go in the bios and into MONITORING, go into SYS_FAN and check they are at 50%.

Yes fans are directly connected. CPU coller is attached to CPU_FAN 1, other fans are connected to SYS_FAN 1-3
I did not change settings in bios so far, as i thought i could manage them from desktop. Will set fans to 50% when i get home.

Abula wrote:
Have you tried the supplied fan controlled on the case? if you set it low it should go very close to 400rpms, while i dont use it could be a pretty cheap way to lower the noise, but personally i like dynamic control by the motherboard, this is why i dont use it.

I considered it, but i havent done it for the same reason you stated... i rather want to have dynamic control. The CPU cooler comes with a resistor that would lower the fan speed. I havent attached this one either... should i?

Abula wrote:
1) Voltage controlled Headers
SYS_FAN1, SYS_FAN2 and SYS_FAN3 are 4pin physically but they will be voltage controlled, they have higher restrictions, in mine is 50% the least they can drop off.

Would you put some resistor between fan and mainboard to force it to a lower rate?

Abula wrote:
There are more options on 120s, but at the same time i prefer to take the advantage of the 140mm fans support the R4 and XL have, if you wish to read some check First 140 mm Fan Roundup: Noctua, Phanteks, Xigmatek and Second 140 mm Fan Roundup: Antec, bequiet!, Corsair, Scythe, in there you will find that Phantek and Antec are among the best options for 140s.

But you do need to decide how you will control them.

1) Voltage controlled, i would pick Antec True Quiet 140, they are cheap and have some of the best sonic signature of 140s, they are quiet fans, but they also dont spin that high. I leave you a screenshot of the range they can work out, its tricky to get them 200rpms though with an MSI motherboard, on CA_steve build you can see he manages to takes them to 400rpm using the SYS_FAN header at 50% on the bios.

2) PWM controlled, here there are very few options, specially that can drop that low, my suggestion is Noctua NF-A14 PWM, their sonic signature is not as good as Antecs, but they will drop super low on an MSI 4pin PWM fan header on pure bios, CPU_FAN1 or CPU_FAN2, this is what i did, you just need to get a a PWM fan splitter like GELID PWM Splitter Cable CA-PWM-03 or Swiftech 8-Way PWM Cable Splitter, connect them to the CPU_FAN2 and the fans to the splitter and then go into the bios and set up either 12.5% or 25% as the minimum PWM and they should drop between 225rpms to 400rpms. Just a warning the fans are quiet below 650rpms, but higher than that starts to get noticeble, higher than 900rpms they are loud, but i also restricted them so they cant go that high on the bios.

Ok, thanks for the advice. I will go for 140mm ones. There is a significant benefit for the amount of air moved the bigger the fan, even at lower rpms.
If i go for option 2, it basically means that all fans share the same speed right? I thought that it might be better if the out-fan is using a higher speed then the 2-3 in-fans. What do you think?

Abula wrote:
Yes, i would go with 4, the two fronts and bottom as in and the back one as out. You can click on signature desktop for a very similar build with 4 fans on R4 which is almost the same as you XL.

If you need help setting up the bios, let me know.

Ok, thanks! I will take a closer look at the bios tonight or tomorrow, might come back with questions :)


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:26 am 
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Agathon wrote:
The manual is not conclusive about it. From what i can tell, the mainboard has 4pin connectors but all but the 2 CPU fan headers are not real PWN fan ports. Is there a definite way to find out?


Well, nothing I'm aware of, but usually a PWM fan, when connected to a fake-PWM header, exhibits some weird behaviours.
So, if you mind, you may do some simple trial and error tests: install SpeedFan (read the relevant SPCR article in the "Fans|Controls" section to know how to set it up), then connect the CPU fan (which is PWM, right?) to any SYS_FAN header: eventually, using SpeedFan manual control, check whether the fan behaviour is exactly the same or not on both those headers (CPU_FAN and SYS_FAN).
Whether the relevant behaviour is not the same (for example, the fan can't go as low as it goes when connected to the CPU_FAN header, or it shows a different speed at the same % setting), then the SYS_FAN is a fake PWM header: unfortuntately, whether it's the same you can't say anything definitive (but I guess it's a voltage controlled one, so in case the fan to look at is the Antec TrueQuiet).

Have a good luck!

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Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:44 am 
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Agathon wrote:
The CPU cooler comes with a resistor that would lower the fan speed. I havent attached this one either... should i? Would you put some resistor between fan and mainboard to force it to a lower rate?
I didn't used any resistors on any of my 7 noctua fans that im running, they do work though, they lower a little bit the bottom end of rpms and lower by 200-400rpms the top end, but if you are controlling it dynamically i dont see much of a point, Noctua fans with or without the reistor drop really low, and with the MSI bios you can restrict how high they can go on the bios so the reason i didnt use any of the resistor, but this is up to you, and you personal tweaking.

Agathon wrote:
If i go for option 2, it basically means that all fans share the same speed right?
Yes, all fans connected to the same Splitter will run at the same RPMS, so in essence since you have two true PWM fan headers, i would recommend you use, as you are atm, the CPU_FAN1 for the CPU cooler, and the CPU_FAN2 for the case fans, this way you can control them seperatly on the bios, although the case fans will be binded together.

Agathon wrote:
I thought that it might be better if the out-fan is using a higher speed then the 2-3 in-fans. What do you think?
This is again something very particular to each setup and user. What i try always is to have more air in than out, to create positive pressure and avoid the small holes to become intake when you have negative pressure. Since all my my intakes are behind fan filters, i decided that i needed 2 or 3, finally went for 3 in to guarantee the positive pressure, some fan filter can diminish a lot into how much air enters, in some cases around 50%, and the back fan is almost unrestricted with the cone grill.

If i wanted to control all fans individually i would have gone with Asus motherboard + Antec True Quiet 140s for case fans, like 3 would be able to get controlled individually i believe one will have to have been binded with a splitter still out of only 3 CHA_FAN headers. But i so much prefer the way MSI works with the bios, i can run whatever os or even avoid any conflicts that software might have all because they are manage by the bios, and you will also save some resources (very few though). Btw i also dont run the MSI control center, if i wanted software based i would have gone with Asus, MSI strength over Asus is its bios fan control on PWM fan headers.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:39 am 
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So i set the fans to 50% for temp below 60°C. But the fans are still a lot too fast (around 750 rpm). Also i noticed that they sometimes spin up for max speed for a 2 sec.

I will now replace them with notcua ones and use the splitter, lets see how that works.


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:51 am 
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Agathon wrote:
So i set the fans to 50% for temp below 60°C. But the fans are still a lot too fast (around 750 rpm). Also i noticed that they sometimes spin up for max speed for a 2 sec.


A speed of ~750rpm looks like compatible with a 50% regulation: what about setting up SpeedFan?

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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:35 am 
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The issue here I think is controlling fans just through the BIOS. For some PWM fans the MSI BIOS control is better because it allows a minimum duty cycle setting of 12.5%. Asus go no lower than 20% in the BIOS. So using fans such as the Noctua NF-A14/A15 and setting the duty cycle to the BIOS minimum should mean sub-400 or maybe sub-300 rpm idle speeds. The MSI Gamer 7 like some of the Asus boards has a secondary PWM CPU header. This header duplicates the CPU fan settings, it is not individually controllable. Two fans could be run off this header using a PWM Y splitter creating a CPU/chassis fan PWM chain. In addition a PWM extension cable might be needed. Noctua supply both a Y cable and extension cable as standard with their PWM fans.


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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:30 am 
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Agathon wrote:
I will now replace them with notcua ones and use the splitter, lets see how that works.
Enter the BIOS go to Monitoring, then click CPU_FAN2, and try 12.5% and 50C (or 60C) as the first setting, and check if all your noctuas spin (they should but this is a very low PWM so its best to check), then enter the bios and see what rpms are the fans spinning, should be around 225 or so. Your motherboard difers on mine on the bios fan control into you have 3 more breakpoints, so you can make the ramping less incline or more into certain temperatures. I have the last setting of the fans to 37.5% in 80C, but in your case this could be your third, and you could do 50% at 100C, this low % PWM are so you restrict the Noctua NF-A14 PWM to around 700rpms (37.5) or 900rpms (50%), but remember to check under load inside windows if the amount of air is good so you dont pass the max temperature your CPU is rated. Personally i find noctuas noticeable above 650rpms, but its up to you to test on your personal settings, for me was multiple restarts and entering in the bios until i found the combination that was quiet enough and that still gave enough cooling for the PC to sustain itself under stress.

Use HWmonitor or Coretemp to monitor the CPU temperature.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


Last edited by Abula on Fri May 30, 2014 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:42 am 
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Abula wrote:
Use HWmonitor or Coretemp to monitor the CPU temperature.


For Intel CPU RealTemp 3.70 is probably better suited.

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 Post subject: Re: making up my mind
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:45 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
Abula wrote:
Use HWmonitor or Coretemp to monitor the CPU temperature.


For Intel CPU RealTemp 3.70 is probably better suited.
Could be, but there are two things that i like more about the two others. HWmonitor that also has the rpms of the fans and reads both sensors fine, even though with different names, but very useful when you are rebooting and stressing the cpu to check/test the bios fan settings. And Core temp mostly because i like its gadget and it has clocks/loads on it, so i can see loads/clocks without entering a more heavy monitoring like aida64/hwinfo.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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