2008-11 Motherboard and CPU for quiet gaming.

[johnbentley]

My requirements
-------------------

* Best bang for buck CPU/Motherboard combo toward the high end, to support gaming.
* Support for GTX 260.
* I'll need at least 2 PCI Express slots for a second (probably cheap) video card.
* Good from a quiet/slient point of view.
* Will be building entirely new rig.


CPU
-----

Probable CPU choice: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 (2.83GHz) $AUD 430 ("Yorkfield", 45 nm)

Core i7 seems skippable given Mike Chin's concluding comments in his Intel Core i7: Nehalem Launched.

"Core 2 is pretty darn fast to begin with. ... For silent computing enthusiasts, the Core i7 isn't really a step forward, what with the promise of higher performance at the price of higher thermals, which may cost a decibel or two."

Tom's hardware CPU benchmarks put the Q9550 toward the top while not being too expensive (eg as against Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 (3.0GHz) $AUD 873.50)

The Q9550 has a thermal design power (TDP) of 95 Watts, as does the Q6600.

The Core 2 Duo E8600 3.33GHz gets around the same benchmark score (just looking at the particular benckmark linked above) as the Q9550. The E8600 is also priced similarly but, by contrast, has a TDP of 65 W.

I'm inclined toward a quad processor as I'm going to frequently have multiple applications open. I also wish to future proof the rig, expecting future games to take advantage of multiple cores. Unless, that is, the Q9550 @ 95W is known to run too hot for quiet purposes.

95 W V 65 W is just a number to me. Is 95 W a significant increase in practical terms of generating heat and keeping a case quiet? Do you have experience successfully cooling, quietly, a Q9550?


Chipsets
----------

Unless you can give advice to the contrary the candidate chipsets are:

Intel Chipsets
X38 - Core 2 Quad / Core 2 Duo- 2 PCI-Express 2.0 (x16 each) - 26.5 W, 12.3 W idle
X48 - Core 2 Quad / Core 2 Duo / Core 2 Extreme - 26.5 W, 12.3 W idle
X58 - Core i7 will support SLI and Crossfire.

nVidia Chipset (for Intel CPUs)
NVIDIA® nForce® 790i Ultra SLI - Core 2 Quad / Core 2 Duo - PCIE 2.0 (x16 each): 2 slots + PCIE 1.0 (x 6): 1 slot

Is it right that the Intel chipsets support either nVidia Cards (eg GTX 260) or ATI cards (eg HD 4870)?
Is it right that the intel chispets (Core i7 excepted) only support crossfire and NOT SLI.
Is Hybrid power (the ability to turn the discrete graphics card off) working fine these days? Does this require rebooting?
Is a nVidia (and specifically the 790i) chipset especially hot?


PCI Express
--------------

I've selected the above chipsets because they support, at least, 2 slots of PCI express x 16 2.0. Is PCI-Express x 8 2.0 perfectly adeuqate these days (thus letting a P45 chipset, @P45: 22 W, 9 W idle, through as a candidate)?


Motherboard
-----------

Find bellow a few candidate motherboards and commentry that I can find.

* Chipset: Intel X38
MSI X38 Diamond, Platinum -- ATX / 775 / Intel X38 + ICH9R
$AUD 402. Listed in Recommended Motherboards: From a Silence Perspective 1.1

* Chipset: Intel X48
GA-X48-DQ6 , ATI CrossFireX.
$AUD 363 Good X38/X48 mobo?

ASUS Rampage Formula, X48, ATI CrossFire Technology
$AUD 412 Good X38/X48 mobo?

Asus P5E3 Premium, X48, Crossfire compatibile.
$AUD 552

* Chipset: Nvidia nForce 790i SLI
XFX nVidia nForce 790i Ultra SLI Motherboard - Core 2 Extreme, Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad $AUD 534 -

The XFX 650i Ultra was recommended in Recommended Motherboards: From a Silence Perspective 1.1. Is the 790i Ultra similarly good?

* Chipset: Intel P45
Asus Maximus Formula

I have an Asus Maximus Formula and love it. Speedfan works great after I followed some advice from spcr.
The dynamic fan control in the bios is quite flexible though, can't quite recall how it is arranged but remember you can set it to target temps or at certain pwm %'s. Good X38/X48 mobo?

{running Asus Maximus} For my setup, I'm running YL fans in my system (and a 500RPM SlipStream on my TRUE), and I've simply got them all set to auto with my Q6600 at stock speeds, my CPU temps never go above 44C - even when it's warm out. Good X38/X48 mobo?

* Chipset: X58
ASUS PT6 (Upcoming) - See Tom's Review article Sneak Peek: Four Core i7 X58 Motherboards
EVGA X58 - Some Gossip about the board being great


Concluding Question
-----------------------
I might be overanalysing this. Perhaps you can reassure me that any (or Some) of the above motherboards are going to be readily coolable and therefore sufficiently silent?

[SebRad]

Hi, with regard to CPU choice i would say the Q9550 is the way to go at the moment. The 95w TDP is entirely handle-able in a decent case with a large heatsink. You can even have modest overclocking at low noise levels. Once you have to start pushing the CPU voltage up much the heat starts to get difficult to manage but that's an aside. The Yorkfield's are quite under-voltable. This is not under-clocking, the CPU still runs default speeds but you reduced the voltage supplied and as the power/heat are proportional to the vcore squared this can help significantly.

For the motherboard if you want SLI then you need an Nvidia chipset. You state a second cheap video card which suggests to me you want more monitors rather than more performance. I think the very new Nvidia Geforce 9300/9400 chipsets can support an external video card at the same time as the onboard graphics. The onboard graphics are fast enough for Vista aero interface and all 2D tasks so there isn't any compromise vs low-end video card. If you want higher 3D performance then you need to SLI two similar cards together. Otherwise I'd go with an Intel chipset board, at the level you seam to be aiming I guess X48 as it’s the latest/greatest. AFAIK the X58 is for i7 CPUs only. P45 chipset would work fine for you too, I doubt you'd ever notice the speed difference to X38/X48 without benchmarking. The motherboards are simpler and much cheaper and the chipset is cooler. Also stock cooling systems are generally simpler and easier to replace/upgrade, eg Thermalright HR-05. If you're not fussed about overclocking then go with a cheaper board that has the features you want and has good fan control and works with software fan control unless you plan to have manual hardware fan control, eg fanmates.

The "standard" SPCR system would be Antec P182 case (with airflow mods), Corsair HX620 PSU (plenty even for overclocking and SLI). CPU cooler would be Thermalright Ultra120 / Ultra 120 Extreme [know as TRUE] / HR01 / HR01x or Sythe Ninja (with bolt kit) or Xigmatek. Add bunch of Scythe case fans and Arctic Cooling S1 on the graphics card and you're good to go. This gives a pretty tried n tested base to work from with plenty of potential to be really quiet with a little work on fan control etc.
Regards, Seb

[johnbentley]

SebRad, thanks for your helpful reply.

the Q9550 is the way to go at the moment. The 95w TDP is entirely handle-able in a decent case with a large heatsink.

That settles the cpu choice, then

The Yorkfield's are quite under-voltable. This is not under-clocking

That teaches me something. I'll probably use stock settings, at least initially. It is good to learn, though, of this under-volting option.

For the motherboard if you want SLI then you need an Nvidia chipset.

Or an Intel X58, I believe.

You state a second cheap video card which suggests to me you want more monitors rather than more performance.

Both actually. I'm going to have a triple monitor setup. This is going to entail two different modes. Mode 1: A single GTX260 driving TripleHead2Go for 3D/gaming. Mode 2: The 3 monitors plugged into spare ports accross the two graphics cards, with Ultramon software, for 2D work (Officework, and software dev). This solution I've been exploring at the Widescreen Gaming Forum under Usability of Triple Standard V Triple Wide

The performance of a single GTX260 seems adequate for this purpose, as explored in DTH2Go, GTX260 and HD4870

If you want higher 3D performance then you need to SLI two similar cards together.

From benchmarking it does seem SLI is not too great a benefit. It would be nice to have a motherboard, though, that supported the option.

P45 chipset would work fine for you too, I doubt you'd ever notice the speed difference to X38/X48 without benchmarking. The motherboards are simpler and much cheaper and the chipset is cooler. Also stock cooling systems are generally simpler and easier to replace/upgrade, eg Thermalright HR-05. If you're not fussed about overclocking then go with a cheaper board that has the features you want and has good fan control and works with software fan control unless you plan to have manual hardware fan control, eg fanmates.

So the P45 is simpler, cheaper and cooler. As mentioned the prime motives for me in choosing an X38/X48 over a P45 are:
* 2 slots of PCI express x 16 2.0
* In general getting the latest electronic product means it is more likely to have up to date obscure features (eg Bios settings) that support all sorts of quirky unexpected future needs.

Reflecting further, on your prompting, I suppose the X38/X48 draws only 4Watts more power than the P45. That doesn't seem too significant in terms of heat (Happy to be corrected). Budget not too big of a deal for me. Is there more detail (a story of woe) that can be linked to about X38/X45 being difficult when replacing stock cooling? Could I survive with the moetherboard stock cooling (I will definitely have an aftermarket CPU cooler, probably Thermalright HR-01 Plus + Bolt through kit).

Thanks for the list of parts for the SPCR base system. That matches, more or less, with my current understanding from the lurking I've been doing here. Nice to have my understanding reaffirmed!

Excepting I'm probably going to use a Asus ENGTX260 with its stock cooler, given Asus ENGTX260: A Quiet Graphics Card for Gamers?

[Olle P]

X58 - Core i7 will support SLI ...

No. Actually, no chipsets support SLI per se.
SLI support is defined by nVidia's graphic drivers and based on wether or not the mobo manufacturer pay royalties to nVidia for SLI support with that motherboard. Since nVidia doesn't have to pay royalties to themselves all mobos based on nVidia chipsets (and otherwise physically capable) will support SLI.

For X58 Intel's "Dreamcast" mobo does not support SLI, whereas the ASUS mobo, the name of which illudes me, does.

Cheers
Olle

[Moon GT]

For a gaming PC I'd have thought an E8500 would beat a Q9550, since even most modern games still can't manage to make good use of more than two cores.
As demonstrated, for instance, here:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/sh ... =3344&p=15

[QuietOC]

For a gaming PC I'd have thought an E8500 would beat a Q9550, since even most modern games still can't manage to make good use of more than two cores.

Yes, even new games still only run on one core.

Fallout 3


An overclocked E5200 on a $40 G31 motherboard could outperform the proposed system and be easier to keep quiet. If overclocking is not for you, an E8x00 is a good choice. If you really can take advantage of SMP, I can't see bothering with the cludge of Core 2 Quads when Core i7 is out (with possible exception of the Q8200.)

[Strid]

You hardly will need more than G31 for a motherboard, unless you can fill more than 4 PCI(e) ports with cards - I can't. Maybe if you want to use DDR3 RAM, I see the benefit.

If you want 2x PCIe slots for SLI'ing cards, you of course should go with an NVIDIA chipset motherboard. Why do you want room for two graphic cards if you're already set on the GTX 260 btw?

As for brands, they're all the same, except for price and taste. I'm a Gigabyte fanboy, but I can't honestly say they're better than other. It's a bit like which football team you like, I guess.

E8x00 would be my choice, although you can easily overclock E5200/E7x00 to similar performance. For absolute performance, I don't think anything can possibly beat an (possibly overclocked) E8x00 (disregarding the Core i7).

The biggest difference between a quad and a dual, is that dual cores run fine off a passive heat sink - even under load. Stress four cores, and you're at the edge of what's possible with a passive heat sink.


Is it right that the Intel chipsets support either nVidia Cards (eg GTX 260) or ATI cards (eg HD 4870)? Yeah, but you can only use two ATI's in crossfire mode, not two NVIDIA in SLI mode. I've even seen a guy using a ATI card plus an NVIDIA card, the NVIDIA card did the PhysX during gaming.

Is it right that the intel chispets (Core i7 excepted) only support crossfire and NOT SLI? Yes!


Is Hybrid power (the ability to turn the discrete graphics card off) working fine these days? Does this require rebooting? Doesn't require rebooting. But DOES require an AMD platform and works only with certain NVIDIA GPU's on a few select IGP motherboards IIRC (someone please verify this?).

Is a nVidia (and specifically the 790i) chipset especially hot? It's definitely on the hot side - too hot? Temps won't be too great with low air-flow (quiet). I would only get 790i if it was specifically for an SLI setup.


My advice: First, decide what you WANT. Then see if there is something that does the same, only cheaper. (E.g. X48 motherboard perform almost exactly the same as G31 given the exact setup, G31 is A LOT cheaper). Then think if you actually need what you want or if it's just for the "bling bling" of it. (Nothing wrong with Bling bling, though)

[johnbentley]

Thanks all, for your most helpful responses.

... think if you actually need what you want or if it's just for the "bling bling" of it. (Nothing wrong with Bling bling, though)

I am in danger of going for the bling bling, spending more than I need to. I'm also prone to fanboyism. The various lower spec'ed suggestions may well meet my requirements. However, I seem strangely resistant to take up the suggestions. So I'm going to explore whether I'm being reasonable or blinded by the bling ....


SLI REQUIREMENT DROPPED
---------------------------------

Olle P thanks for pointing out that an X58 may or may not have SLI. Given strid's comments I'm going to let go of my requirement for SLI:

Is a nVidia (and specifically the 790i) chipset especially hot? It's definitely on the hot side - too hot? Temps won't be too great with low air-flow (quiet). I would only get 790i if it was specifically for an SLI setup.

HYBRID POWER REQUIREMENT DROPPED
----------------------------------------------

Is Hybrid power (the ability to turn the discrete graphics card off) working fine these days? Does this require rebooting? Doesn't require rebooting. But DOES require an AMD platform and works only with certain NVIDIA GPU's on a few select IGP motherboards IIRC (someone please verify this?).

I'm an intel fanboy. I hear that Hybrid is a little flaky/immature. So (and furthermore) in the interests of getting to a deciscion faster I'm going to drop this requirement too.


MULTIPLE CORES
--------------------

Moon GT and QuietOC thanks for emphasizing that modern games, even the latest, don't utilize more than one core. However, as mentioned in my top post:

I'm inclined toward a quad processor as I'm going to frequently have multiple applications open. I also wish to future proof the rig, expecting future games to take advantage of multiple cores.

CPU CHOICE
---------------

The current performance of the suggested E[5|6]00 seems more or less the same as the Q9550 Tom's hardware CPU benchmarks

The biggest difference between a quad and a dual, is that dual cores run fine off a passive heat sink - even under load. Stress four cores, and you're at the edge of what's possible with a passive heat sink.

That is persuasive for going dual core. Strid your comments helps clarify that:
* I'm prepared to sacrifice a bit of quiet against other considerations. I stubbornly remain in favour of the Q9550; and
* I'll need to whack a fan on my (yet to be purchased) Thermalright HR-01 Plus.


PCI EXPRESS
----------------

Strid asks "Why do you want room for two graphic cards if you're already set on the GTX 260 btw?" As mentioned in my second post:

I'm going to have a triple monitor setup. This is going to entail two different modes. Mode 1: A single GTX260 driving TripleHead2Go for 3D/gaming. Mode 2: The 3 monitors plugged into spare ports across the two graphics cards, with Ultramon software, for 2D work (Officework, and software dev).

The second graphics card need only be a cheaper/ lower spec'd thing. The main issue in choosing a cheaper card is that it can be made quite. I'd be inclined to choose an Nvida to play nicely with the GTX260 (notwithstanding strid's mate having an ATI and Nvidia card on the same board). I'll want the second card, also, to accommodate an aftermarket cooler.

The G31 boards I've been looking at have 1 PCIe x16 and 1 PCIe x1. I will want a few spare PCIe slots (eg for RAID, and general future requirments proofing)

The P31 and P35 boards I've been looking at have 1 PCIe x16 and 3 PCIe x1. Is PCIe X 1 OK for the second cheap graphics card?

My original enquiry about PCI express remains important with respect to the second graphics card. Do I need PCIe x 1, PCIe x 4, PCIe x 8, PCIe X 16? Do I need PCIe 2.0?

I'll be researching these questions and will post the results here. If anyone can beat me to the punch I'd be grateful.

[QuietOC]

My original enquiry about PCI express remains important with respect to the second graphics card. Do I need PCIe x 1, PCIe x 4, PCIe x 8, PCIe X 16? Do I need PCIe 2.0?

You don't need PCIe 2.0.

You would need two slots capable of installing a PCIe x16 card. Now some motherboards (ASUS G33 comes to mind) have a PCIe x4 slot with an open end that allows a video card to be used with it.

I would recommend you get a P35 motherboard, perhaps a G33 if you want a smaller case. G31/P31 has limitations (4GB of memory) and according to Intel requires more power.

[johnbentley]

You would need two slots capable of installing a PCIe x16 card

Indeed that seems desirable. So despite your recommendation I'm going to go with a X38 or X48 motherboard for the following reasons:
* They are lowest on the ladder of Intel chipsets that support 2 PCIe x 16 (that are incidentally 2.0)
* My requirements have changed for the second video card. I'm now after something with 2 DVI-I slots, and that can fit an aftermarket cooler. The Palit GeForce 9600GSO - 768MB DDR3, 192-bit, 2x DVI, HDMI, HDTV - PCI-Ex16 v2.0 (600MHz, 1.8GHz) - $AUD160 seems to fit the bill. This is Thermalright T-Rad^2 compatible.
* I'm wanting maximum future proofing.
* I'm spending too much time on the motherboard/rig decision and need to eliminate variables.
* I'm probably blinded by the bling.

Therefore I'll probably bump Good X38/X48 mobo? and continue the discussion there.

[FartingBob]

Get a P45 board. PCIE 2.0 basically doubles the bandwidth compared to pcie 1.1.
So pcie2.0 2.0 x8 is the same as x16 on pcie1.1

Currently i believe the only single card that can theoretically approach the pcie1.1 limit is the 4870x2.

You'd be fine with a PCIE 2.0 board with an x16 and x8 slot.

[johnbentley]

PCIE 2.0 basically doubles the bandwidth compared to pcie 1.1.
So pcie2.0 [...] x8 is the same as x16 on pcie1.1

Thanks FartingBob. However doesn't a card that has a PCIe 2.0 x 16 interface, like the GeForce 9600 GSO, require a PCIe 2.0 x 16 slot on the motherboard? That is, even if the card can't exploit the interface in terms of pushing enough data through it?

Edit: Trying to answer my own questions.

a PCIe card will physically fit (and work correctly) in any slot that is at least as large as it is (e.g. an x1 sized card will work in any sized slot);...

PCIe will negotiate the highest mutually supported number of lanes.

Even though the two would be signal-compatible, it is not usually possible to place a physically larger PCIe card (e.g. a 16x sized card) into a smaller slot - though some motherboards have open-ended PCIe slots that will allow this.

Echoing ...

Now some motherboards (ASUS G33 comes to mind) have a PCIe x4 slot with an open end that allows a video card to be used with it.

Edit: Ok I see that a P45 board, furthermore, might have a PCIe X 16 slot form factor that that pushes data at x8. For example ASUS P5Q-E

Edit: also

PCIe 2.0 is backward compatible with PCIe v1.x. Graphic cards and motherboards designed for v2.0 will be able to work with v1.1 and v1.0..

So have I understood it correctly that a PCIe 2.0 x 16 interface on a graphics card will work OK with a PICe [1.1|1.0] x 16 interface on a motherboard?