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 Post subject: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:43 am 
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Hi SPCR,

My existing build is getting old so I plan to replace it during 2014. I currently have an Antec Fusion case with a Scythe Mini Ninja CPU cooler. Apart from the PSU I only have two Noctua NF-S12-1200 case fans cooling the system (the case fans happen to be located very close to the CPU cooler so in practise they double as CPU cooler as well). I am very happy with the Fusion/Ninja/Noctua setup (I got it from here when I built the old system in 2008) so I would like to re-use them in my new build. After some research I think my CPU cooler should support both the Intel 1150 socket and the AMD Socket FM2+ so I hope that should not be a problem.

Unless you think re-using the above sounds like a crazy idea I would appreciate if you exports could recommend CPU, motherboard and graphics card that you think are suitable.

The system does not have to be completely silent, I am fine with the current noise level that the Noctua fans produce (I currently have a passively cooled Radeon 4650 graphics card and an dual core AMP Athlon 64 X2 4850e 2,5GHz, TDP 45W).

During load I am perfectly fine with a little increased noise (I have a projector in the same room matching the current system's noise level anyway).

So, within the above preferences I wonder which the most powerful but still reasonable silent build that you can recommend is. So far I have been looking at this build:
Intel Core i3 4340 3,6GHz, TDP 54W
XFX Radeon R7 250 Passive GDDR5 HDMI 1GB
Corsair Vengeance Low Profile DDR3 PC12800/1600MHz CL9 2x4GB
Asus Gryphon Z87

But I am worried that the graphics card is too weak (not matching the CPU), but given the low height of the Antec Fusion it is the best passive card I have found. Or, can you recommend any other that fits in the Fusion case? Are there any silent (enough) graphics cards with active cooling?

Can the cooler handle the Intel 4340 CPU? Could it even handle an Intel 4670K (TDP 84W)?

I am not sure I posted in the right area (I was thinking that the Antec Fusion case is the most central aspect to consider).


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:27 am 
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Welcome to SPCR. I moved your topic over the system advice forum.

The first question is always 'how are you going to use this PC?" Is it just a HTPC for 10' browsing/watching content? If so, you don't need a discrete gfx card. The integrated GPU is fine.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:48 am 
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As steve posted, the intel GPU 4600 is more than enough for anything none gaming related, and in some cases, special filter do require a befier card, but i dont think the R 250 will give you anything to add but increase the consumption and more heat inside the case. Honestly i think you should give a shot without a dedicated GPU and test all the software you want to use, even now a lot of high end filters are supporting quicksync, so my guess is you will be fine, in the event that you are not, research the particular software/filter and check how much gpu power you will need, and buy accordingly.

On the motherboard, its a fine motherboard, imo a little overkill for none overclocked CPU, i would suggest to look into the Asus H87 series that would be ideal for HTPC setup, for example ASUS H87-PRO LGA 1150 Intel H87 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard with UEFI BIOS or in a case you chose micro atx for a reason on the Gryphoon, ASUS H87M-PRO LGA 1150 Intel H87 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 uATX Intel Motherboard.

The CPU cooler i think should be fine for the i3 4340, on the 4670K idk, i would probably avoid the K though, i wouldn't overclock with that cooler, and i would still go with a board like the above.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:05 am 
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samax901 wrote:
Intel Core i3 4340 3,6GHz, TDP 54W

If you don't need the IGP, it would seem a waste of money: a Pentium G3420 would serve you well, although it's a little slower. Otherwise, a Core i5 4430 or 4670 (not K, maybe S cause they could be found for some money less than regular SKUs these days) may offer a better value.


samax901 wrote:
Corsair Vengeance Low Profile DDR3 PC12800/1600MHz CL9 2x4GB

It's a standard profile, basic and overrated memory: low voltage Kingston or Crucial should be preferable, even some G.Skill Ares might worth.


samax901 wrote:
Asus Gryphon Z87

As said by Abula, a Z87 is a total overkill, unless you buy a K CPU: but then your Mini Ninja wouldn't be adequate.
Providing that the relevant TUF Design isnt' sought after, ASUS H87 Pro (adviced by Abula), ASRock H87M Pro4, and MSI H87M-G43 are all viable choices.


samax901 wrote:
But I am worried that the graphics card is too weak (not matching the CPU), but given the low height of the Antec Fusion it is the best passive card I have found. Or, can you recommend any other that fits in the Fusion case? Are there any silent (enough) graphics cards with active cooling?

If you're a gamer, the fastest fanless card available is the Power Color HD7850 SCS3 (AX7850 1GBD5-S3DH), but it is 132mm tall (from the PCI-E slot) and I don't know if the Antec can fit, moreover it's pretty rare and expensive.

There are several quiet cards today: I would give a look at ASUS DC-II, XFX DD and (maybe) Radeon MSI (IME Nvidia MSI seems to have all crippled BIOSes).


samax901 wrote:
Can the cooler handle the Intel 4340 CPU? Could it even handle an Intel 4670K (TDP 84W)?

Haswell chips may run pretty hot compared to previous generation Core i3/i5s: you have to fine tune your fan behaviour; anyway, I don't think it can handle an oc'ed i5, and if you don't overclock a K SKU, as said a regular quad is then advisable.

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:39 am 
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Thanks for the input. sorry for not stating my intended usage. I was planning/hoping for the build to support some gaming (but I am not remotely close of being any kind of serious gamer). We're talking about games like Grid, Dirt and the not-yet-released Star Citizen that seem interesting. Otherwise it is mostly about videos/streaming.

I do not intend to overclock, the motherboard seemed attractive to me due to the advertised component quality and 5 year warranty (but I suspect that it is mostly an advertisement trick), I will look at the other (my case only supports mATX size).

Evereybody seem to agree that the 4670K is not a good alternative given case/cooler. But given my hope of some "light gaming" I am not sure what you all recommended instead (I misled you by only stating htpc), can I ask you to adjust your recommendations?

The graphics card is only allowed to be around 0.5 (maybe 1) cm higher than the metal plate (with dvi/hdmi/dp connections) in order to fit the antec fusion case.


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:36 am 
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..and there's the other shoe dropping :)

Can we ban the use of the phrase "light gaming"? I have no idea what it means. :)

Grid 2 and Dirt 3 will require a mid-level gaming card to get decent fps at 1080p with eye-candy turned up - you can certainly dial down the eye candy and resolution to get playability even with the HD 4600. Star Citizen early alpha info suggests it'll require a beefier card than the other two.

As for dual vs quad core...if you are willing to dial down the gaming resolution/eye candy, then dual core will probably work well for the first two games...maybe/maybe not for Star Citizen.

My take: if you don't care about gaming at 1080p and 720p or less works for you, then the case will work. If you want to game at 1080p with eye candy, go for a different case because you'll be limited on the gfx card you can fit and even then, it may be a thermally limited/noisy solution.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:15 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
..and there's the other shoe dropping :)

Can we ban the use of the phrase "light gaming"? I have no idea what it means. :)

Grid 2 and Dirt 3 will require a mid-level gaming card to get decent fps at 1080p with eye-candy turned up - you can certainly dial down the eye candy and resolution to get playability even with the HD 4600. Star Citizen early alpha info suggests it'll require a beefier card than the other two.

As for dual vs quad core...if you are willing to dial down the gaming resolution/eye candy, then dual core will probably work well for the first two games...maybe/maybe not for Star Citizen.

My take: if you don't care about gaming at 1080p and 720p or less works for you, then the case will work. If you want to game at 1080p with eye candy, go for a different case because you'll be limited on the gfx card you can fit and even then, it may be a thermally limited/noisy solution.


Hehe, I promise never to use the phrase again! :-)

Changing to a different case will require interior design changes to the room so I need to digest that option (I am not sure my... "gaming profile" motivates it ;-).

Did I understand the recommendation being i3 4340 for dual core and i5 4670S for quad core and that the graphics card I had looked at does not add any value (compared to Intel HD 4600 provided by both CPU options)?

Could the AMD Kaveri A8-7600 be a better option in my case (stand-alone, no dedicated graphics card)?
Aware of any plans of reviewing that APU here at SPCR (doesn't seem available in stores yet)?


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:45 am 
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samax901 wrote:
Did I understand the recommendation being i3 4340 for dual core and i5 4670S for quad core and that the graphics card I had looked at does not add any value (compared to Intel HD 4600 provided by both CPU options)?

IIRC the proposed R7 250X is noticeably faster than a 4600 graphics, but it is somewhat slower than the previous HD7750 (not to mention the HD7770), which IMVHO is the basic requirement for gaming at any decent resolution (more than 1366 x 768).
So your graphics requirement mostly depends of your monitor resolution (and if I were you, I'd also ask to Antec support how much is the maximum height for graphics).


samax901 wrote:
Could the AMD Kaveri A8-7600 be a better option in my case (stand-alone, no dedicated graphics card)?

AFAIK no, although it uses the same GCN of the R7 cards, it's clearly slower than the proposed R7 250X (384 shaders vs 512, about 700mHz core vs about 1100mHz), and it should offer a performance level comparable to the Intel 4600 graphics.
The 7850K has a 512-shaders GCN, so it's faster, but it also has an higher TDP.

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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:49 am 
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If no discrete gfx card and no gaming: Kaveri or i3 are about equal. If you can transcode with (or other apps can use) Quicksync, then the i3 is better.

If no discrete gfx card and want to game: Kaveri is better than i3 or i5.

If no discrete card but plan to get one in future: go i3 or i5. A generic answer as a low end gpu won't stress the cpu, but a higher horsepower card will make more use of cpu: If 50W gfx card, go i3. If 100W card go i5. If > 100W card, get a different case. Probably not worth messing with a passive gfx card. With a 10' UI and game/movies you won't hear a quiet cooler. Also, look for a cooler with heatpipes with U shape on top of card, not the bottom as the card remains upright in this case.

One last question: will the PC have room to breathe or is it being stuffed into a cabinet, etc? If the latter, your thermal issues just got worse :)

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:23 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
If no discrete gfx card and want to game: Kaveri is better than i3 or i5.


BF4???? Steve, if you wanna play BF4 on an IGP, you'd better stop gaming...

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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:54 pm 
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...as usual, the main issue is the gaming resolution: whether we were talking about something like a large HD Ready panel (like a low level LED TV), maybe the better Kaveri performance could even not matter (not so much). On the contrary, on higher resolutions (and/or settings), I guess it won't matter in another sense: more probably that not the relevant performance would be still inadequate (with reference to the HD4600 one).

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:13 pm 
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I merely throw the Tech Report review out there as a reference point to compare Kaveri's iGP to Haswell desktop.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:21 am 
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Sorry for hijicking someone else's thread, but I am in a similar situation (a 2008 HTPC build, with Antec Fusion + Noctua case fans + 4850e + Scythe Big Shuriken on a 780G-based Gigabyte board). Plus a cable tuner card and 6GB Corsair XMS - but on XP (with a a RAM+PAE disk for the 3 gigs that windoze doesn't see, perfect for temp files, browser cache and timeshifting, so that the SSD is not tortured too much). Connected to an old LCD-TV via (don't shoot me!) D-SUB and 1366x768. No HDMI since the stupid TV overscans everything. Anyway 1920x1080 from sofa (±2m away) is too much for my lame sight.

Due to slightly increased noise levels over the years, I plan to replace the CPU HS with Zalman CNPS8900 Quiet and the Antec PSU with the fanless Silverstone NightJar. Also I'm thinking of upgrading to Win 7 (XP did the job for me, but it's clearly aging, and it's probably a pity not to use a 64bit OS today...).

But since the current build has troubles when running the Doom3-based "Dark Mod" (thedarkmod.com), and probably will be stretched to limits by Win 7, I am thinking of more.

One option would be to add a passive R7 250 to the existing setup. Alternatively, new builds: Pentium G3420 + the said passive R7 250, or A8-7600 (which is not yet available in Germany), or even A10-7850K. I reckon i3 + onboard Intel graphics aren't suitable for my Dark Mod (given that I'll perhaps go for Diablo 3 and Thief 4 as well). The A10 is up to 50W more heat than I currently have, but I don't plan to calculate prime numbers every day. I would pair the Kaveris with something like GA-F2A88XM-D3H (I need the TOSLINK output, not many choices there) and with 2133 DDR, sice they seem to benefit from extra bandwidth.

Thoughts and advices about the options above? Thanks in advance...


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:48 pm 
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Reading more carefully the posts above, especially Steve's, I see that actually I have little option but go for Kaveri.

Weren't it for 'Dark Mod' gaming, I should chosen an i3, perhaps even the 35W part. According to TM article, the 54W TDP i3 i two time more efficient than A10-7850K at mutimedia, non-gaming, tasks,and it's in the same price league, perhaps a tad cheaper.

But I really want to avoid the discrete Gfx. Even a passive one would indirectly increase noise levels, right? I mean, the Antec Fusion is not small, but an extra card will increase the pressure on the system fans


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 Post subject: Re: Suitable build for Antec Fusion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:06 pm 
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Really comes down into what you need, both AMD and Intel offerings are viable for your build, i prefer more intel out of being more efficient, their iGPU HD4600 is pretty good for none gaming scenario, now if you do need more gpu power for something directly related to your uses, then go with AMD APU, they should be better, again depending on the application.

Now on the discrete gpu, check out the new GTX750ti, seems a pretty nice gpu in case you down the road need more gpu power.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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