BTX, What do you guys think?

ForHisGlory · Post by **ForHisGlory** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:22 pm

So this all started when I helped a friend buy a Dell Dimension 5100. When I helped him do some hardware installation, I was so surprised. Everything was weird, the PCI cards were installed face up, opposed to faced down in ATX designs. Then I noticed the CPU was in the front, not in the back, and then I knew this was something new. Oh yeah one more thing, when I turned it on, I could barely hear a thing. It's like I couldn't tell it was on or off. Well, I know I am a newbie so my hearing is not as acute as you guys, but it was the quietest PC I have ever heard (again that is subjective and based on my limited experience).

So I started some research and I found some sites about BTX.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1876
http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reselle ... /95346.htm
http://www.formfactors.org/FFDetail.asp?FFID=12&CatID=1

Based on these sites and my experience with my friend's Dimension 5100, I am highly motivated to buy a Dimension with a BTX build or build one myself. However, when I learned about all of this, Newegg did not even have BTX as a form factor when searching through their cases or motherboards. However you can now find a couple cases by just searching "btx case" and they have added btx as a form factor for motherboards. Only 2 BTX mobos are on Newegg though, the 945G and the 955X which is high-end and pricey. I would actually like the 945P as it has more expansion slots and seems like a good board. Also I've never built a computer before, so the only knowledge I have is from upgrading my old Dell computer and stuff. But it looks pretty straightforward.

What are your guys thoughts and comments on ATX vs. BTX in terms of both cooling and noise? I think BTX is superior in both aspects.

Also, thanks for this forum; it is great, as silent, cool, and fast PCs are the best.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:37 pm

Welcome to SPCR

BTX isn't exactly new. I think the idea was floated out at least 2-3years ago. Intel, made a big push for a shift to BTX a little over a year ago I think. From what I can tell it is a superior layout. Things have changed since the ATX layout was designed, and the BTX standard takes into account many of those changes.

However, BTX never really took off. Why? Because with AMD's much more efficient processors, AMD based systems didn't need the extra cooling. You can get a very quiet computer with equal power as an Intel in an ATX box by just using an efficient AMD chip. Intel made a big push for computer builders to switch over to BTX, but there was resistance from the custom computer builders who weren't ready to move. Therefore, Intel had to keep both layouts around.

Intel tried to create the transition by introducing BTX in their high end boards, so as technology progressed, ATX would be slowly phased out. However, since nobody (other than large manufacturers like Dell that got pressured by Intel) jumped to the new layout, BTX products didn't sell. So now, Intel has admitted defeat and started focusing on making their chips more efficient and easier to cool. You might still find BTX on some higher end workstations, but they seem less and less common now.

The better technology doesn't always win. A classic example of this would be Betamax vs. VHS. In that situtation, the better technology lost because of bad business strategy and market share. In BTX's case, they pushed for something that nobody really wanted and was only needed for their own high end systems.

mathias · Post by **mathias** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:51 pm

I disagree, BTX intruduces all sorts of restrictions for the sake of maximizing CPU cooling. By having the CPU first, everything else gets hotter, such as the hard drives. It was probably partly designed to try to screw AMD over, by requiring the ram to be positioned in such a way that would cause problems for CPU's with integrated memory controllers. It's a hell of a lot of trouble just to improve CPU cooling a bit; why not just use a slightly better heatsink instead? And/or make a CPU exhaust duct, which makes the whole sytem a lot cooler.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:07 pm

True, but by flipping the motherboard around, graphics cards are cooled much better in BTX tower cases. The heat actually gets to rise off the card. The focus wasn't just on CPU cooling, it also improved video card cooling. Hard drives probably do take a hit in higher temperatures. Here's some threads/articles arguing some of the advantages and disadvantages of BTX: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=1876
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=7210
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=12287

Its a moot point though since BTX seems to be fading now. Much like Betamax and RDRAM: better designs that were never really adopted.

mathias · Post by **mathias** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:24 pm

It's moot, but especially because you link it to betamax, you're making it into a "people don't know what's best for them" story, and the problem I have with that is that in this case it's implying that intel knows what's best for us.

And the main "advantage" of BTX is analagous to saying that big cars are the supperior form of transportation because tthey have huge advantages to extremely overweight people.

It''s up to video card manufacturers to improve video card cooling, IMO arctic cooling has a far better idea than intel. On the other hand, there seems to be a somewhat widely held belief here that video card cooling should not be better, to keep video card power consumption in check.

ForHisGlory · Post by **ForHisGlory** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:37 pm

Hm, I didn't think about the hard drives. So now that I sold my computer and was planning on buying/building a new one, what do you guys think? I am not a gamer, but just like a fast, cool, and silent PC. I found some pictures of the Dimension 9100 and they don't look so great.

Dell Dimension 9100:
http://www.clubic.com/afficher-en-plein ... 35128.html
http://www.clubic.com/afficher-en-plein ... 35127.html
http://www.clubic.com/afficher-en-plein ... 35126.html

The Dimension 5100 looks a lot tidier in terms of hard drive placements:
http://www.billigdrucker.de/images/hard ... -offen.jpg
http://img.zol.com.cn/article/4/717/li0kexoRaTgoI.jpg

I also found another review. It's not the best, but it its a comparison of BTX and ATX.
http://www.anandtech.com/casecooling/sh ... spx?i=2276

*Edit* Fixed links.

Michael Sandstrom · Post by **Michael Sandstrom** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:33 pm

A lot of people view BTX as a dead end because Intel is moving towards cooler running CPUs. An AMD Venice or San Diego core processer in an ATX box can be silent with air cooling. The AMD machine also would have great performance and lowered operating costs. In spite of the above it would be interesting to see and evaluate the new Dells.

ForHisGlory · Post by **ForHisGlory** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:04 pm

Michael Sandstrom wrote:A lot of people view BTX as a dead end because Intel is moving towards cooler running CPUs. An AMD Venice or San Diego core processer in an ATX box can be silent with air cooling. The AMD machine also would have great performance and lowered operating costs. In spite of the above it would be interesting to see and evaluate the new Dells.

I don't think BTX is dead, because even if Intel is moving towards cooler running CPUS, in the future, the speed of the CPU will increase so that means power and heat would have to increase. There will need to be a superior and more efficient means of cooling than ATX.

Also the fact that Dell took this design in says a lot. Gateway also took this in, but I think Dell builds better computers. Putting everything aside, yes, I think it would be very interesting evaluating the new Dell's as they are much quieter than their previous models (which I thought were pretty quiet). I'm sure they run cooler too because it looks like with the 5100 at least they put some effort into the wiring.

Here's Gateway's account of BTX:
http://www.gateway.com/tech/btx_tech.sh ... te=btxtech

pipperoni · Post by **pipperoni** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:54 pm

mathias wrote:...It was probably partly designed to try to screw AMD over... ...arctic cooling has a far better idea than intel.....

But Arctic Cooling kills an extra expansion slot, and considering the general opinion is that you should leave the slot directly adjacent to the graphics card empty, that means two lost slots. BTX style graphics cooling eats into unused spade.

There were also AMD boards shown off at computer shows which followed the BTX layout.

mathias · Post by **mathias** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:21 pm

pipperoni wrote:
mathias wrote:arctic cooling has a far better idea than intel.....
But Arctic Cooling kills an extra expansion slot, and considering the general opinion is that you should leave the slot directly adjacent to the graphics card empty, that means two lost slots.

I never said arctic cooling's implementation was good, just that their idea was. I don't actually like their implementation, specifically the fact that the fan can't be replaced.

AC silencer style cooling wouldn't have to commandeer two PCI slots. For cooler cards, the fan could be much thinner, and it could exhaust the hot air through a part of the card's own bracket, with there being a single connector which a splitter would plug into.

There could be a hole in the video card to let the fan take air in through the top, as well as the bottom. Or, the cooler could just extend past the card a bit more so that the fan could take in air from above. Or, with heatpipes, a silencer style cooler could be above the card.

That empty slot could still be used with something other than a card that takes up a PCI bracket.

With this whole "more mhz, heat be damded!" motto, you have another problem with upside down video cards: the ram at the bottom will be very hot, it won't have any airflow from the GPU fan or from the case or CPU fan, and the heat won't be able to rise from it. And GDDR2 ram has gotten very cheap, cheaper than GDDR1.

pipperoni wrote:BTX style graphics cooling eats into unused spade.

BTX moves everything around, it shuffles everything up so much it's hard to tell where space is taken away.