Is thier a reference design/build for n00bs?

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:55 am

Like you know

Fans- 1 fan in silentX PSU
Harddrive - xyz notebook drive
CPU- Moblie barton undervolted 1.2V
MOBO- Passive cooled undervaltable DFI ultra infinity
HS- Thermalright slk900 passive
GPU- Passive 9600 pro or zalmaned 9800pro
Case-?

HELP!! Need a totally silent computer for my room at 3 am.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:55 am

There's not really one configuration that's the "be all, end all" of silent computers. You can choose components from the "Recommended" lists on the main SPCR site and assemble a very quiet system that way.

Things to keep in mind:

1) Start with a well ventilated steel case with well designed fan grills, or remove the fan grills entirely.

2) Usa a mobo w/o an actively cooled NB, or you'll have to replace the NB HSF with a passive version.

3) Do your research first, to keep from buying the wrong stuff.

4) Read through the "Gallery" forum to get ideas about what's worked for others.

Sam Williams · Post by **Sam Williams** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:58 am

Sound advice from Ralf as always... I was just about to direct you to Ralf's own system, which is documented here:

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=6127

Most people here would agree that Ralf's system is a great example for anyone looking for fast and quiet.

idealcrash · Post by **idealcrash** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:06 am

For the case, the most popular build around here seems to the based on the Antec SLK3700BQE modded with fan grills removed and with 120mm fans at 5v (either panaflo, papst or silenx, only one exhaust or intake/exhast combination, opinions vary) mounted with fan isolators. If I was to start a new build now that's the case I would get for sure.

If you're going for a passive cpu cooling solution, get the latest Thermalright SP97 with the 3 heatpipes.

The Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer at 5v is extremely quiet and allows you to run a better graphics card like the 9800 line.

Sam Williams · Post by **Sam Williams** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:18 am

If you're going for a passive cpu cooling solution, get the latest Thermalright SP97 with the 3 heatpipes.

Do you know of a review or system writeup where the SP97 has actually been used fanless? I'd appreciate a URL...

idealcrash · Post by **idealcrash** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:31 am

Sam Williams wrote:
If you're going for a passive cpu cooling solution, get the latest Thermalright SP97 with the 3 heatpipes.
Do you know of a review or system writeup where the SP97 has actually been used fanless? I'd appreciate a URL...

Here you go http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=8810 a P4 2.2GHz running fanless with a SP94 (basically the same). The duct on the side panel must help alot though.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:24 am

To repeat what has already been said (because it is so important):

1. Case - must have great potential for airflow. The AMB3700 with those huge 120mm grills removed is excellent - you can't go wrong with it. Just be prepared to snip out the grills to maximize the potential.

2. Motherbaord - passive cooling for the chipset; otherwise, you'll be using a fan that is small and, thus, whiny by definition. Zalman makes popular passive heatsinks for this if your chipset isn't already passive.

3. PSU and CPU cooler - use the recommended list here at SPCR and you will not go wrong.

4. Fans - oddly enough, this can get pretty expensive since you may not know which fan is the quietest; hence, you keep trying new brands of fans. Let me spare you a little trouble by saying that none of them are silent, but the Panaflo is damn quiet when you undervolt it. Whichever fan you choose, go ahead and order a Zalman fanmate with it for easy undervolting.

5. Graphics - Radeon 9500, 9700, 9800, and Geforce 3 cards can all accept the Arctic VGA Silencer, which is very quiet with the fan set to "low".

The other Geforce cards will need either a Zalman solution - OR, just uplug the tiny fan and point a quiet fan (perhaps an undervolted Panaflo) at the heatsink. This is very easy to accomplish, and can be done with the Radeon cards as well.

6. Keep asking questions here

Knowledge is power.

Edit: oops, forgot hard drive. I'm no help there because I'm using 2 Western Digitals, which have a whine. When I was new to silencing, the last thing on my mind was the sound level of the hard drive. If you are serious about silencing (and of course we all are), you will discover that the hard drive is a beast. You quiet down the rest of the PC only to discover that the hard drive is now the loudest component.

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:44 pm

Lots of great advice

One issue I have with the recommended pages is some hav'nt been updated in some time so it perhaps leaves some contenders out? For example the Undervoltable Mobo's recommended was last updated Jan 26 2003, the Hard drive recommended was last updated May 11, 2003, and the fans recommended does'nt cover 120's. But I'm sure it's still an excellent resource.

Ralf- Excellent advice, Your system is an excellent example of what i'm looking for.

Ideal crash- "get the latest Thermalright SP97 with the 3 heatpipes. " Good one had'nt heard of it until now. Always thought slk900 was the best I'd could hope for.

3. Wedge- I found the 120mm panaflos to be too loud even at 5V since they make a distinctive hum (at least the ones I've tried). So far the best 120 I've found is the NMB B20's but they move no air like thier 25mm Depth papst counterpart, the 4412.

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:41 pm

Alright here's what I'm thinking so far: All prices are at newegg.com unless specified.

Case Fan - I just ordered 2 x 120mm FBK which Ralf has, off a guy on ebay for $20 shipped.

Case- SLK3700AMB -$65

Mobo- I'm an AMD person so DFI NforceII ultra infinity all passive design -$93

CPU- Moblie 2600 unlocked and has a stock 1.45 Vcore, will undervolt. $101

Graphics Card - Sapphire 9800pro ultimate edition with zalman pipe/passive -$250

HS- Thermalright SP97 $55 I will try no fan

HDD- SAMSUNG 120GB SP1213N -$91

CD/DVD combo drive - Samsung SM-352NEN $55

PSU- Sinlex 600w <14 dBA Pro iXtrema PSU $199

I fiqure high power PSU will not put PSU under strain and keep RPM down?

Memory- Mushkin 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 "222 Special" $285

$1154

Thoughts? changes?

So far I have 2 fans in this system, the 120mm Panny FBK which I plan to 5V and the silenx PS fan. Will it be enough?

m_yates · Post by **m_yates** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:59 pm

Since you are not going to use the power supply, you can save a couple of bucks and get the Ever Case 4252 with no power supply (available for $45 including shipping right now at Newegg). The ever case is what Arm Systems uses for their "stealth" quiet PC's. You can use up to 120 mm fan in the back and an 80 mm fan in the front. The evercase is what I am currently saving my pennies for to replace my noisy enlight tin can.

bcassell · Post by **bcassell** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:02 pm

Beerhunter wrote:Alright here's what I'm thinking so far: All prices are at newegg.com unless specified.

Memory- Mushkin 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 "222 Special" $285

Thoughts? changes?

Well, I'm kind of a silence newbie, so I'll leave those comments up to others, but as for performance... unless you have money to burn, that ram is REALLY not worth it. The difference between 2-2-2 and 3-4-4 on an nforce2 platform in games is probably in the low single digit percentages. A quick look at newegg shows Corsair value select dual kit for $168 (which, coincidentally, is the same ram I use). Is it really worth $120 to you to get a couple percent increase in performance in applications that have heavy, non-sequential memory acess? Even if I had the $120 to burn, I would spend it on something else, but that's just my opinion =)

Bryan

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:10 pm

m_yates wrote:Since you are not going to use the power supply, you can save a couple of bucks and get the Ever Case 4252 with no power supply (available for $45 including shipping right now at Newegg). The ever case is what Arm Systems uses for their "stealth" quiet PC's. You can use up to 120 mm fan in the back and an 80 mm fan in the front. The evercase is what I am currently saving my pennies for to replace my noisy enlight tin can.

Good one:) I don't much like doors anyhow which can break off. I had an antec 1040 which doors broke off. Thanks.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:11 pm

Others may feel differently, but I feel that a 600w PSU is not necessary. If I were buying one for the computer components you have listed, I would get a 350 - 400 watt quality brand PSU.

As for everything else you listed, sounds great to me

(I don't know about the fans as I only have experience with Panaflo, Enermax, Antec, and Vantec. The latter 2 are no good for silencing).

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:13 pm

bcassell wrote:
Beerhunter wrote:Alright here's what I'm thinking so far: All prices are at newegg.com unless specified.

Memory- Mushkin 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 "222 Special" $285

Thoughts? changes?

Well, I'm kind of a silence newbie, so I'll leave those comments up to others, but as for performance... unless you have money to burn, that ram is REALLY not worth it. The difference between 2-2-2 and 3-4-4 on an nforce2 platform in games is probably in the low single digit percentages. A quick look at newegg shows Corsair value select dual kit for $168 (which, coincidentally, is the same ram I use). Is it really worth $120 to you to get a couple percent increase in performance in applications that have heavy, non-sequential memory acess? Even if I had the $120 to burn, I would spend it on something else, but that's just my opinion =)

Bryan

No money to burn...spent hundreds on fans so far and prolly $1000 on my WC setup still not silent... I thought It made a substantial difference running at low timmings. Glad you dropped in and set things straight.

bcassell · Post by **bcassell** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:32 pm

Beerhunter wrote: No money to burn...spent hundreds on fans so far and prolly $1000 on my WC setup still not silent... I thought It made a substantial difference running at low timmings. Glad you dropped in and set things straight.

Well, though I try to sound like I know exactly what I'm talking about, the honest truth is: nobody really knows EXACTLY how much of a difference the timings make. It probably varies considerably based on platform, cpu, etc. A commonly referenced article on the subject is: this one, though it's kind of old, and I don't particularly like Tom's hardware anyway. His conclusions are pretty much irrelevant with the memory situation these days, but the benchmarks could still be useful. A better thing to do would be to check out the enormous number of Anandtech memory reviews. While there is no direct "how does memory timing affect performance" comparison, if you were to sift through the overwhelming number of benchmarks there, you could probably draw a conclusion for yourself.

In general, though, the common wisdom is that memory timing DO affect performance, but not very much. The advice most people in the know will give you is to spend your money elsewhere, unless you really don't have anything else to spend it on.

Bryan

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:04 pm

Wedge wrote:Others may feel differently, but I feel that a 600w PSU is not necessary. If I were buying one for the computer components you have listed, I would get a 350 - 400 watt quality brand PSU.

As for everything else you listed, sounds great to me
(I don't know about the fans as I only have experience with Panaflo, Enermax, Antec, and Vantec. The latter 2 are no good for silencing).

Like I said it's to keep PSU under minimal loads. I've heard MikeC note in several reviews how PSUs start to ramp up in fan speed once one hits between 40-60% of rated power depending on model. I think this 600W will provide very good head room and may run more silent. Besides it's ony a few bucks more. Good price for piece of mind IMHO.

My mom thinks I'm crazy...while we were at frys the other day a PSU only costs $30 she says what do you need the $100 enermax you got from newegg . Wait till she hears this one.

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:08 pm

Beerhunter --

No way your proposed system is going to approach "silent". Silent, IMO, is a system <20 dBA/1m. Preferably 15 dBA or better. Your proposed system will be ~25 dBA at low load, probably >30 dBA under heavy load. There are NO 14 dBA PSUs. Unless you can keep the best quiet fan running at min speed in the PSU even at higher load.

This is possible only with advanced fresh air ducting, which is difficult when you have a case with a front door.

The 120mm fans will probably make it impossible to reach below 20 dBA anyway... but I could be wrong. I don't find those Panaflo 120s (or ANY 120s) to be quiet enough to get you below 20dBA in a system. Too much mass to move silently.

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:17 pm

I asked you in another thread to post your 20 dBA system choice perhaps you be willing to obidge? I'm dying reading so much.

MikeC wrote:
. Remember that my own systems are 20 dBA or lower!

Beerhunter Wrote:

Is there a place I can see MikeC's systems so I can stop looking.

And spending. I've spent over $200 on fans/shipping alone.

Thanks

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:34 pm

Oh yeah, I would definitely go with a 92mm fan (Panaflo preferably) rather than any 120mm fan, even though members here swear that they are quiet when undervolted. The 92mm fans can move plenty of air IMO.

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:07 pm

Beerhunter --

P4-2.53 system: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=10549. It's the silent nutter's system described in the ARM System Foundation kit review. Same 21 dBA w/PSU inside or outside the case.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article14-page1.html -- the P4-1.6A system described here is no more but was ~20 dBA. On page 4 a P3-700 system is described; it was ~17 dBA.

I also have a P3-1.1 Tualatin system in Evercase 4252 case with SLK800 HS + Panaflo 80L at 4.5V, Seasonic ss300fs w/Panaflo80L with PSU fresh air duct thru top CD bay, & Seagate Barracuda IV on soft foam at front bottom, with some case damping: This one has no case fans, and CPU always runs ~50C with folding @ home 24/7; it measures 17 dBA/1 meter.

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:16 pm

MikeC-

That is sooo awesome. If I'd found that just a bit earlier I may not have gone water cooled, as I thought THAT was the key from my friends over at overclockers forums but I'm still not silent..just see my ad in the classified section for all the mistakes I'm trying to sell..

~20 db IMO is about the best one can hope for and still run latest games at decent frame rates..which I believe those systems can do.

<so excited>

It appears I may have to drop the AMD fascination though since most all these systems are pentium based. No big deal, better memory bandwidth anyway, I just like supporting the underdog. And drop the raptors. I do have 2 x 40 gig seagate baracudas IV's around here somewhere I used to use.

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:46 pm

It appears I may have to drop the AMD fascination though since most all these systems are pentium based.

No need, similar results can be obtained with AMD CPUs of similar wattage, plus they're more often undervoltable/underclockable. I'd go with A64, I think it represents the best silent hope for super powerful PC (with cool&quiet). Still experimenting with that platform right now.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:04 am

Like I said it's to keep PSU under minimal loads. I've heard MikeC note in several reviews how PSUs start to ramp up in fan speed once one hits between 40-60% of rated power depending on model. I think this 600W will provide very good head room and may run more silent. Besides it's ony a few bucks more. Good price for piece of mind IMHO.

Beerhunter, I think you may have hold of the wrong end of the stick here...the "head room" concept doesn't necessarily apply, at least in the way you mean...

Although it may seem counter-intuitive at first, I believe the fan on a hugely overspecified PSU may actually be *more* likely to ramp up under modest loads, simply because it will be operating less efficiently and therefore generating more heat. If for example your system is asking for 150W from the PSU, and that PSU is 75% efficient under those conditions, the PSU will be drawing 200W from the mains, and those "wasted" 50W appear as heat needing to be expelled by the PSU fan. If on the other hand the PSU is only operating at 50% efficiency, it will require 300W from the mains in order to output your required 150W...so three times as much heat will be needed to be expelled. Obviously, the ideal situation would be a PSU which was 100% efficient under all conditions - its input would always exactly equal its output, it would generate no internal heat and it would require no cooling...a practical impossibility however.

Given that PSUs tend to operate more efficiently when driven hard, you may be shooting yourself in the foot with your 600W model if your requirements will never approach this. YMMV, but I think you'd be better off calculating the maximum load of your system, adding the smallest margin on top that you feel comfortable with, and buying the best quality PSU of that output you can afford. Of course, in practice it may not be that simple owing to differing PSU designs and so on.

On a side-note (but related), it's worth bearing in mind that *all* the power drawn by your PSU will eventually end up as heat (unless you've found a way to reverse entropy), it just goes by different routes...via the PSU heatsink, the laser in your optical drive, friction in the bearings of your various drives, fans etc...not really relevant in a practical sense, but interesting anyway...

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:06 am

Beerhunter, I can speak from experience that the Antec TruePower 550 is not quiet when drawing 240W AC. At least not quiet to my ear. My girlfriend keeps wondering what I'm complaining about since she feel that it's audible, but not obtrusive.

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:01 pm

Nick- a bit strange but thanks. I'm going for the "foundation" case anyhow w/400 watter. They seem to really like it. This is going to be a non-oc system just for chating with you guys and doing my HW and such.

sthayashi- Re antec. That's no joke. I read tones of reviews on the 480 before buying it, over at anantech and at newegg.com users reviews raving how quiet it was. Quite simply they have very different standards than I. I had to pull out all fans and cut a big rear hole put a blower on the rear. Still not satisfied as the blower vibrates and creates resonance but better than before.

I got my enermax 465 in yesterday and it's definity an RMA.

Beerhunter · Post by **Beerhunter** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:12 pm

MikeC wrote:
It appears I may have to drop the AMD fascination though since most all these systems are pentium based.
No need, similar results can be obtained with AMD CPUs of similar wattage, plus they're more often undervoltable/underclockable. I'd go with A64, I think it represents the best silent hope for super powerful PC (with cool&quiet). Still experimenting with that platform right now.

Very good idea. Then I'm waiting for the 64 moblie which runs at 1.4Vcore instead of desktops/desktop replacements 1.5Vcore. These will be hand picked processors to run at rated speed at lower Vcore much like the moblie barton craze now.

In adition they are unlocked and have no heat spreader which comprises cooling if you one know how to apply Arctic silver properly on bare cores.