*Silent*, fanless PC

The forum for non-component-related silent pc discussions.

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zambaretzu
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*Silent*, fanless PC

Post by zambaretzu » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:25 am

Next year, I'm off to college and will have my PC in a small room, on 24/7. I've built some very quiet systems in the past, but now I want something that's as close to inaudible as possible. A computer that you could sit down next to and not be able to tell whether it's on.

Has anyone built a completely passively cooled PC? Is it feasible with a configuration like this? Since there's no airflow, should the case be left opened?

This should take care of most sources of noise. Since I've never lowered fan noise to the point where other sources of noise become predominant, I'm not sure what else would be needed. Washers on the drives' mounting holes? Acoustic foam inside the case? Do any electrical components buzz or whine? If yes, can they be silenced?

I'm trying to get a better idea of the different sources of noise beyond fans and drives. By the way, DVD drive noise isn't of a concern since I won't use it much.

I haven't considered watercooling, since the pumps are supposedly noisy, and water-cooled cases seem targeted at the performance, overclocking market. My ears appreciate any help.

DavdJ
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Post by DavdJ » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:52 am

:oops: The PS that you specify does not seem to run with a P4. I would check out AMD anyway, better value for money


Dave

MGP
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Post by MGP » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:36 am

i doubt that a pc with the kind of power that zambaretzu is looking into building can be safely cooled. if you want a pc w/o fans, i would definitely try for a much less powerful pc.

heatsinks still need airflow to cool components, so having a zalman northbridge hs and the zm80a-hp on a vga card like a radeon 9700 pro without ANY case fans (almost no case airflow) is highly unlikely to work.

having some panaflo l1a's for case airflow surely wouldnt hurt.

MGP
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Post by MGP » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:42 am

unless you will be needing a heater/oven for your dorm. :D

ChiefWeasel
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Post by ChiefWeasel » Thu Jan 16, 2003 8:08 am

Yep, WMPTBDS is right, you will need some airflow in there. Panaflo L1as at 5 or 7V are very quiet anyway, in a dorm environment you would probably never hear them. 1 on the CPU, 1 as an exhaust, maybe 2.

You wont need to grommet the drive mounts if you use a NoVibes...

Underclocking would certainly mean you could use a slower fan, jus find the optimum clock/fan speed ratio for you.

GamingGod
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Post by GamingGod » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:25 am

buy intel they run cooler, and in the long run its not really that much cheaper buying amd anyways. yea and you definately need some exhaust. I would just go ahead and buy the nexus power supply, its the quietest fan power supply out now.

Gandalf
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Post by Gandalf » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:42 am

GamingGod wrote:buy intel they run cooler, and in the long run its not really that much cheaper buying amd anyways. yea and you definately need some exhaust. I would just go ahead and buy the nexus power supply, its the quietest fan power supply out now.
Yeah but they're also butt slow .. no wonder they're cooler huh. I mean my 8088 runs cooler than an AMD too :P

tm
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Post by tm » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:48 am

What will you be using this PC for? Games? Writing essays on post-modern philosophy? A small server?

If you're not going for a high-end, "I can play all my 3D games at 200 FPS", rig, you may wish to look at Via's EPIA stuff, since some of the configurations can be passively cooled. Plus it has the added benefit of being small, which may be a consideration in your small dorm room. Cheaper, too. If you want complete silence, you can equip them to run off a flash memory card instead of a hard drive.

But, guessing from your specs so far, you are aiming to do some gaming, and I don't see a way around avoiding fans in a high end rig. If you want your gaming rig to be silent at night, without the faint whirr of fans, you can turn it off :) Maybe two boxes, one a small 24/7 box, and the other, the more powerful gaming machine? Explain to they who are funding you, that this is a critically important investment for your education ;)

GamingGod
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Post by GamingGod » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:08 pm

im not trying to start any fights, but fact is there really isnt any reason to buy amd anymore, they are slower and run hotter, therefore they are louder. Intel may be a little more expensive but its not but maybe a $30-40 difference at most.

Gandalf
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Post by Gandalf » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:13 pm

ROFL. You crack me up.
I have a P IV 1.8gig at work, I run Distributed.net on it at night, it *barely* reaches 2.5mil keys/sec (RC5-72). At home I have an athlon xp1700+, it reaches 4.5mil keys/sec .. that's nearly twice as fast. So really, intell is faster? I think not.

Beyonder
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Post by Beyonder » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:07 pm

The FPU on the athlon pretty much blows P4's out of the water.

Personally, I don't think the difference is that great between the two - and since the athlons are generally a bit cheaper, I go for those.



Anyways, to the original poster: if you're really concerned with noise and don't care much about performance, I'd go for one of the via systems that tm reccomended. Otherwise, you're limited to an AMD/Intel solution, and you'll pretty much have to get a fan of some sorts. I bet you could underclock/undervolt a Tualatin Celeron chip (around 1.1 Ghz, very good price) and easily get it to run passivly with an excellent HS.

ChiefWeasel
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Post by ChiefWeasel » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:48 pm

Oh no, not another AMD/Intel battle :(

Anyway, so zambaretzu isnt mislead by Gandalf's posts, i feel the need to post a link to a coupla pages which show a wide range of benchmarks to fairly compare the two processors courtesy of [H]ardOCP:
Business Benchies
Game Benchies

Gandalf, you need to realise that you cant compare two processor using only one 'benchmark'. Especially as the prog you used clearly doesnt have SSE2 optimizations, which bring the P4 up to speed with Athlons.

Rusty075
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Post by Rusty075 » Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:08 pm

Uh Oh, here we go.

Ok, here's the key to selecting whether you should buy an AMD or an Intel proc. (At least according to me)

If the main applications you are building the machine for are floating point intensive, such as AutoCAD, 3D rendering, etc. -GO AMD it has a vastly more effiecient FPU

If the apps are memory bandwidth intensive, GO INTEL, the higher FSB pumps more data through the core.

IF the apps are SSE2 optimized its a bit of a toss-up. Right now the optimizations mean big increases in speeed for the P4s, but all future versions of AMD chips (Barton's, Athlon64's, Opteron's) are going to have SSE2 built into them too. So if you're looking down the road a bit SSE2 won't be an issue. (at least until intel releases SSE3)

If you want to pay extra for a chip to support a multibillion dollar marketing campaign or to support a company that is known to use strong-arm tactics in an attempt to control the media as well as the market, by all means GO INTEL.

As for pricing, according to Pricewatch you can an XP2000+ for less than have the price of P4 2.0 ($70 vs $148)

In terms of cooling, AMD chips do not run "hotter" than Intels.

The apparent differences are from a variety of factors:

1.More efficient packaging means a smaller core to vent heat from.
2.A misleading placement of the thermal diode in the P4 that shows a max temp 10 to 15C cooler than it really is.
3.The application of a cap to the P4, which is really there for the manufacturing process, not cooling. It actually hurts the cooling process more than it helps by introducing 2 more thermal breaks between the core and the heatsink.

Dru
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Post by Dru » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:18 pm

Interesting.. This was my feeling (in brief):

(1) AMDs give much more bang for the buck than Intel
(2) AMDs run hotter than Intels

I suppose people can agree on item #1 (asking too much)?

For #2, I've mainly read that AMDs do run hotter. This is the first I've read otherwise. So this means the CPU temp people are seeing for the P4s are misleading them greatly? 10C-15C is a big difference for a reading. Also, I've heard AMD is starting to use the bigger area like how the Intels are now to help for thermal cooling?

Since "we" (silent followers) hate heat and need to battle it, I felt that my next processor would be an Intel even though I have to pay much more. I've just been led to the reasoning that Intels run cooler and are easier to cool.

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Post by MikeC » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:55 pm

I've just been led to the reasoning that Intels run cooler and are easier to cool.
Dru, you and me and the rest of the world have been Intel'd. I came to this realization in Sept, at the Intel Developer Forum, discussing stuff with engineers from one of Intel's partners. See page 2 of the SPCR HS Testing Methodology articlefor full details about the P4 thermal diode. And this thread on the same issue: http://forums.silentpcreview.com//viewtopic.php?t=2318
In essence, the P4 doesn't want to upset you about how hot it's getting so it kind of downplays it. The real "strength" of the P4?

1) The heat spreader makes the core hard for you and me and other goofs to physically damage by chipping the core.

2) It is almost impossible to burn.

These advantages are enough for lots of conservative minded people / companies to go Intel.
Last edited by MikeC on Thu Jan 16, 2003 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ez2remember
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Post by ez2remember » Thu Jan 16, 2003 8:25 pm

MikeC wrote: 2) It is almost impossible to burn.

These advantages are enough for lots of conservative minded people / companies to go Intel.
Check out this video at Tom's Hardware Guide, if you don't have DivX codec you need to download and install first before viewing. :lol:

http://www17.tomshardware.com/cpu/20010 ... eo-05.html

Zergling
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Post by Zergling » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:25 pm

The beauty of Athlon is that it can be unlocked, some motherboards unlock T-breds at default. Let's say you buy a 2400+ T-bred B and make is run at 133X8~1GHz, it probably needs only 1.1V or less, so you have a processor that output 20W maximum, and beats any Via solutions any day.

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Post by Rusty075 » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:45 pm

ez2remember wrote:Check out this video at Tom's Hardware Guide
That video only applies to T-bird cores, any new Athon is just as safe from bursting into flames as an Intel.

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Post by Justin_R » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:12 am

Zambaretzu-

1) If you're going to be sharing a dorm room /apartment (or even just living in a dorm), noise from your computer will probably be the least of your noise problems.

2) I'd just forget the whole fanless thing. A couple of 5V Panaflos don't make all that much noise. If your PC is under a desk on the other side of the room, you won't hear it. If you have a mini-fridge, it will be louder than your PC. If your dorm/apartment has forced air HVAC, or radiators, or any kind of pipes in your wall, they'll be louder than your PC.

3) Monitors and PSUs can make some high-pitched buzzing, but if you're far enough away from them, it won't matter. Also, you'll probably be turning your monitor off at night, so that doesn't matter much. There is apparently some kind of crap you can spray on electrical components if they're buzzing, but that's all I know about it. You probably won't have this problem anyway.

4) I wouldn't get the TK Power thing, because the few (1 or 2?) reviews I've seen of it are not very enthusiastic. If you insist on a fanless PSU (which I think is kind of silly), then you can check the forums here for the die-hards that are epoxying more heatsinks onto their PSU heatsinks, or order that all-black one from Germany (search around the forums for a link). At $300, it's not too much more than the TK Power, and a lot more friendly. For a fan-based solution, MikeC (who's very exacting) recommends the Nexus PSU which he's reviewed here on this site.

5) You won't get the kind of performance you're looking for out of a passively cooled P4. Zalman basically sells the 6000/6500-AlCu as a passive heatsink for 10W Via C3s, labeled as the 6100-AlCu. (It does seem to be a slightly different design.) That means that they're not selling it as a passive heatsink for the 30W P3 CuMines, which means that design (which is not so different from the P4 design) probably poops out around 20W for passive heat dissipation. That's nowhere near what you'd need for even a 50% underclocked Northwood P4. And while you might be able to adjust the multiplier on an AMD chip pretty low, my understanding is that sometimes your system won't POST if you set the multiplier too low. (Please someone go ahead and try. I'm running a P3, so I can't try it.) And most voltage adjustments only let you increase voltage, so you probably won't get help there.

6) Until you see lots of people on this forum raving about some other FDB drive, don't buy anything except a Barracuda IV or V. There's lots of ways to quiet them down, but most people seem to like putting sidesinks on it and then either suspending it or putting it on a piece of foam. The NoVibes is fine, too.

7) Your video card is right on target. Just make sure the ZM80A-HP is won't bump anything on your motherboard.

8 ) If your PSU doesn't have a bottom-directed intake fan, you really should put an exhaust fan in that general area. It will help the Northbridge, the ZM80A, and your CPU. Your other option would be to leave the case open, but a 5V Panaflo at the back of your case is probably quieter than an open case with the HD and any other fans exposed.

Attention All CPU Haters:
Maybe it's not my place to say, but it's no fair threadjacking to have an Intel/AMD fight. It's an important enough debate that it should have it's own thread (maybe even a sticky thread), not be picked up again and again anytime someone mentions they're thinking of buying a CPU. Further, when we do dispute this issue, let's everyone do their best to avoid deliberately incendiary behavior. I think all of us here are sensible enough to recognize that different users have different needs, and that whatever CPU provides the best match for the user is the one they should buy.

Oh, and buy VIA! :twisted:

DavdJ
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not ment to start a flame war

Post by DavdJ » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:50 am

Guys;

The poster who said, no need to hijack a thread was right. In my first post, the point was, CHECK out AMD, not that is was "better" I probably should have left out the bang for the buck thing as it did not apply!

The point of this thread seems to be NO don't try it without FANS

And:

It can be made quiet enough .......

Best; :lol:

Dave

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Re: *Silent*, fanless PC

Post by tridion » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:31 am

zambaretzu wrote:Next year, I'm off to college and will have my PC in a small room, on 24/7. I've built some very quiet systems in the past, but now I want something that's as close to inaudible as possible. A computer that you could sit down next to and not be able to tell whether it's on.

Has anyone built a completely passively cooled PC? Is it feasible with a configuration like this? Since there's no airflow, should the case be left opened?

This should take care of most sources of noise. Since I've never lowered fan noise to the point where other sources of noise become predominant, I'm not sure what else would be needed. Washers on the drives' mounting holes? Acoustic foam inside the case? Do any electrical components buzz or whine? If yes, can they be silenced?

I'm trying to get a better idea of the different sources of noise beyond fans and drives. By the way, DVD drive noise isn't of a concern since I won't use it much.

I haven't considered watercooling, since the pumps are supposedly noisy, and water-cooled cases seem targeted at the performance, overclocking market. My ears appreciate any help.
Just thought I'd add my own comments :

I am running a Celeron Tualatin 1200 underclocked to 1ghz with a voltage 1.05V (using an Abit ST6-RAID MB). I have a panaflo fan on a Thermalright SK800 HS which is virtually silent. There is no other fans apart from the one in the PSU. I am using a Q-Technology 300W psu and it is very quiet (though not totally silent - but adequate for my needs).

I am also using a Sapphire 9000 Radeon VIVO 128Mb which is fanless. Not a top of the range games card but more than I need. The TV out via the S-video connector is very good. I also use a Barracuda IV 80gb enclosed in a SilentDrive whcih makes it virtually silent.

The DVD drive is a Toshiba SD-M1612 and this is very quiet when playing DVD-Video and Divx film on a data DVD. I love this drive and recommend it if you want a quiet drive.

CPU runs at 35C full load and that is with the case closed - no problems at all.

For DVD, Divx, mp3, TV recording, etc which it is used for, it is great.

crisspy
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Post by crisspy » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:34 am

If you fully unlock an XP, just how far down will it go? Many MSI mobo's support their Fuzzylogic program that lets you set CPU speed, Vcore, and the rest, all live from within windows. KEWL!. Can the power dissipation be brought down far enough to run passive? I can imagine turning my CPU down to the 500mhz range for night time passive operation, still very happily getting downloads or crunching slowly away at some non time critical task. Wake up, turn on/up the fans, and crank up the CPU for gaming. Might be a practical way to do the job.

As for absolute HDD silencing, it seems like it would be practical to buy an extra 512mb or more of ram, and set most of it up as a ram disk. With a bit of clever configuration and some scripting to automate the load/unload process, the hard drive could be suspended for long periods of time, while still allowing usefull work to proceed, at much less cost than a Rocketdrive or Flash. A UPS with a save-out/shutdown script would become prudent though. Plus you would have all that ram available as ram for other jobs at other times.

I would skip the novibes, you can do the same with $2 worth of elastic cord in an empty 5¼" drive bay. Or some cleverly cut foam blocks, minding the airflow.

MGP
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Post by MGP » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:47 pm

7) Your video card is right on target. Just make sure the ZM80A-HP is won't bump anything on your motherboard.
i would say that a zm80a-hp on anything like a gf4 ti series chip or a radeon 9700 pro in a system with little (like 2 undervolted panaflo l1a's) to no airflow is a little risky. if a super quiet, low airflow system is imperative, then i would agree and go with the radeon 9000 card which is by default, fanless or a gf4 mx 440 card that comes fanless.

bluehat
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Re: *Silent*, fanless PC

Post by bluehat » Sun Jan 19, 2003 8:25 am

zambaretzu wrote: Since there's no airflow, should the case be left opened?

This should take care of most sources of noise. Since I've never lowered fan noise to the point where other sources of noise become predominant, I'm not sure what else would be needed. Washers on the drives' mounting holes? Acoustic foam inside the case? Do any electrical components buzz or whine? If yes, can they be silenced?

I'm trying to get a better idea of the different sources of noise beyond fans and drives. By the way, DVD drive noise isn't of a concern since I won't use it much.

I haven't considered watercooling, since the pumps are supposedly noisy, and water-cooled cases seem targeted at the performance, overclocking market. My ears appreciate any help.
If you are installing a natural convection PC with reasonably high performance on a fixed location and don't need to move it around, then open desktop case is necessary. It is also necessary to use big heatsinks (not slk-800 or zalman or anything like that) from your local electronic shop. External HD can be totally silenced with massive sand bags.

There shouldn't be any buzz if PSU isn't broken, but crt monitor causes lots of coil buzz. Use lcd monitor instead, and the system is silent.

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