Intel Pentium M - So Close!

johnc · Post by **johnc** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:49 pm

The recently reviewed Seasonic Super Silencer 400 PSU, with its performance efficiency of 78%, renews one's hope that technology will push forward to provide cool, nearly-silent computers.

In the current issue of PC Magazine, there is a nice overview of Pentium laptop chips. ("A Plethora of Pentiums" - August 12, 2003, http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1205964,00.asp - be sure to click on the graphic marker "Pentium Family profile", which is a sidebar to the 2nd paragraph.)

The recently-released Pentium M chip, tested at 1.6Ghz, had a listed power comsumption of a mere 25 watts, vs 82 watts for the Pentium 4 at 3.06Ghz. (This is the standard Intel P4 3.06 chip used in desktop units.) This would seem to be pretty ho-hum, were it not for the fact that the 1.6 M posted a 13.6% higher (=better) score than the P4 on Business Winstone 2002. In Multimedia Content Creation Winstone 2003, it was 8.2% lower (=worse) than the P4.

Perhaps confirmation of these findings is needed, together with certification that the 2 test systems could be properly compared. Assuming that is the case, it would seem that the Pentium M 1.6 is equal(or slightly superior) to the P4 3.06 in performance, with a power saving of 70%.

Which I think is remarkable.

If these findings hold up, it would seem reasonable to lobby Intel for production of chips similar to the Pentium M for desktop use. The energy savings could be tremendous, without appreciable sacrifice in performance.

whitter · Post by **whitter** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:10 am

All the chat I've heard about (and it is only rumour) is that Intel will do eveything it can to AVOID the pentium M making it to the desktop.

The reason for this is the enormous investment intel have made in the "clock-speed is best" argument they've been promoting against AMD for some years. That, and the damage it would do to Intel's Pentium 4 buisness.

The pentium M's performance seems to be mainly derived from the enormous cache on the chip. and the design is a very low power one: great for us, but clearly not a priority for most PC builders. Yet.

As an aside, the pentium M will be availble in blade servers, which can also use standard pentium 4s, so there is likely a lot, if not total, hardware compatibility. The BIOS for a destop mobo might prove tricky to obtain though...

pocketmoon · Post by **pocketmoon** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:19 pm

http://forums.sudhian.com/messageview.c ... adid=40385

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:44 am

Pentium M motherboards for (micro) ATX form factor have been announced:

http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/rad/rad114.html

http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webne ... Y_Du9.html

The motherboards just as the Pentium M chips themselves are currently 1.5 - 3 times as expensive as their P4 counterparts.

I hope it becomes a matter of time, before these sink into tolerable levels.

I think the main problem is the socket/chipset on which Intel has iron control currently. Intel can pretty much dictate whether these chips appear en masse on ATX form factor boards and at what price.

regards,
Halcyon

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:18 am

Is the Pentium M totally redesigned processor, or derived from, say Pentium III Tualatin? (which is a great processor BTW, I have CII 1.3 GHz, which has enough power, as it's not a gaming machine)

AFAIK PIV was designed to run at very high clock speeds, as Intel lost the race to 1 GHz with PIII back then.

Cheers,

Jan

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:46 am

Jan,

I'm not quite sure. I've been thinking about this myself.

Pentium M does support SSE2 which Pentium III does not support.

However, that does not mean that Pentium M could not be based on the Pentium III design.

What seems likely is that it's NOT based on the low efficiency / wattage cpu we call Pentium 4. Pentium M is so much more efficient and cool.

More info at sandpile:

http://www.sandpile.org/impl/pm.htm

cheers,
Halcyon

whitter · Post by **whitter** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:49 am

Jan Kivar wrote:Is the Pentium M totally redesigned processor, or derived from, say Pentium III Tualatin? (which is a great processor BTW, I have CII 1.3 GHz, which has enough power, as it's not a gaming machine)

AFAIK PIV was designed to run at very high clock speeds, as Intel lost the race to 1 GHz with PIII back then.

Cheers,

Jan

Apparently it is based on the PIII model, though 'heavily' modified (see here or here)

johnc · Post by **johnc** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:21 am

I have been working with a Pentium M 1.4 laptop for the last two weeks. I have not done any formal benchmarking, but my subjective impression is that this is a very, very quick computer. It is palpably quicker than my desktops that use PIII-S 1.4 and 1.2 chips

This technology really needs to be moved to desktops.

John Coyle

Beyonder · Post by **Beyonder** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:58 pm

Yeah, I've been working on a 1.3 ghz Pentium-M laptop, and the speed is far more than I can honestly say I need. I'd love to get one of these baddies for my server....I can only imagine the power draw if you undervolt/underclock one of these babies.

Precarious · Post by **Precarious** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:19 am

johnc wrote:I have been working with a Pentium M 1.4 laptop for the last two weeks. I have not done any formal benchmarking, but my subjective impression is that this is a very, very quick computer. It is palpably quicker than my desktops that use PIII-S 1.4 and 1.2 chips

This technology really needs to be moved to desktops.

John Coyle

what about noise?
is your laptop very quiet or not?

johnc · Post by **johnc** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:51 am

By laptop standards, this is a very quiet machine.

The device I am using is a Toshiba Satellite Pro M15-S405, with a Pentium M 1.4 chip.

I am comparing it to a Dell Inspiron 5000 PIII 650 (which sounds like a vacuum cleaner when its fan comes on full) and a Toshiba Satellite Pro 430 (which is moderately noisy - the fan runs most of the time).

The S-405 does have audible seek noise from the hard drive. This is a muted "fast typewriter" clicking. It is not nearly as loud as the hard drive seek noise was with, for example, a 1999 Western Digital desktop hard drive in a tower case. When the fan comes on (which occurs rarely, with my work needs), it is audible but not distractingly loud.

Compared to my desktop systems, which are essentially inaudible at 1 meter, the S-415 is a step toward noisiness. But I am not 1 meter from the S-415 (my arms are fairly long, but not that long), so comparisons are not altogether fair.

Even a suspended Barracuda IV 20GB hard drive is audible/palpable if you hold it up to your face. The hard drive in the S-415 could be quieted somewhat, and it is conceivable that the whole system could somehow be operated fanlessly (for example, with elaborate cooling pipes/heat sinks). But whether the bother and expense involved in these modifications would be worth it is debatable.The noise is very modest as it is.

As always, I would definitely advise anyone who is very concerned with noise to audition computers (desktop or laptop) in a suitable noise environment before buying, to avoid disappointment.

John Coyle

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:21 am

John, I gotta get me one of those. My 2 year old Dell P3-866 is driving me crazy with its weight and s-l-o-w performance these days.

The P-M is obviously THE CPU of choice fo silent power seekers these days.

The question becomes: When will Intel migrate the P-M for the desktop at prices closer to that of P4s? Perhaps when their 90nm 'Dothan' CPU is released at years' end?

The Register says a 33% cut to P-M prices are expected on Oct 5:

the price of the 1.7GHz Pentium M will fall from $637 to $423, a cut of 33.6 per cent. The 1.6GHz part's price will be reduced to $294 from $423, down 30.5 per cent. The 1.5GHz version will fall 18 per cent to $241, from $294, and the 1.4GHz Pentium M will be priced at $209 - the current price of the 1.3GHz chip - a fall of 13.3 per cent from its current price, $241.

Beyonder · Post by **Beyonder** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:31 pm

looks like the best price-point is the 1.4 ghz part....I think my life would be complete with a pentium M, undervolted and underclocked a tad, mounted on a nice desktop motherboard, with a big honkin' heat sink and maybe an L1A at 5 volts.

I'm so on that team, whenever it happens.

al bundy · Post by **al bundy** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:31 pm

Beyonder wrote:...a pentium M, undervolted and underclocked a tad, mounted on a nice desktop motherboard, with a big honkin' heat sink and maybe an L1A at 5 volts.

I'm so on that team, whenever it happens.

So am I.

janderk27 · Post by **janderk27** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:55 am

I totally agree that the P-M should make it onto the desktop. I have worked for a few months with an Acer 800LCI (review) and it is very speedy, runs 5 hours on a battery and best of all is totally silent 99% of the time. The fan does not switch on until the CPU is used at 100% for at least 10 seconds. And because I don't play games this almost never happens. However, if the fan switches on it is quite loud. Acer should have put a better fan in it.

I wonder why anyone would want a loud 100 watt cpu when there are efficient and fast cpus like the Pentium-M around.

Edwood · Post by **Edwood** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:24 am

I have an old Shuttle SV25 mobo at the heart of my main File Server.

I really want to keep the same case (Casetronics Checkercube case) so, really a mini-ATX will only do.

I've been waiting for a mini-ATX mobo with Gigabit ethernet built in. Low and behold the first one will be a Pentium M one from Lippert.

They'll be available in Nov, hopefully. I hope they don't charge too much of a premium for them in small (read, only one) quantities.

-Ed

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:45 pm

http://www.radisys.com/oem_products/ds- ... etsid=1158

dago · Post by **dago** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:52 pm

For the lippert, In qty of 1, the retail price will be around 350 €. You can add 250 € for the CPU.

Edwood · Post by **Edwood** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:49 pm

Trip wrote:http://www.radisys.com/oem_products/ds- ... etsid=1158

Is that a 64 bit PCI slot I see right under the AGP slot?

Man, if only the Lippert mini-ITX mobo had a 64 bit PCI slot, it would be the perfect mobo for my Tiny File Server. Would be perfect for my 3Ware 7410 card. Not that I would be able to fit two more HDD's in that Checkercube case.

Thanks for the pricing info, Dago. I hope Lippert's American Distributer doesn't go over that price.
I contacted
EMJ America Inc.
http://www.emjembedded.com <-- Lippert's American Distributer

"Lippert has not released pricing yet on their New Thunderbird Product.
They
hope to begin shipping this unit by Mid November. Please check back
with me
in October and I should have some more information on this product at
that
time."

<Sigh> Too bad the US Dollar is getting weaker every day.

I noticed that there is no Windows 2000 support listed? That would really suck. Although they do list Linux support.
-Ed

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:40 am

Edwood wrote:
Is that a 64 bit PCI slot I see right under the AGP slot?

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing, but the data says "3 dedicated bus master 32-bit PCI 2.2 slots"

EDIT: oh wait, there is a 64 bit PCI slot in the picture! my bad. Dag, why's it not in the info. section?

http://www.cpuid.com/PentiumM/index.php

Edwood · Post by **Edwood** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:22 am

I got this quote from www.emjembedded.com.

Pricing has been released and the product is due to start shipping mid
November. I hestitate to give you pricing because Lippert has
instigated a
minimum purchase of 20 boards before we can place an order. It is
possible
that we may be able to get a few on eval.

Here is the prelimnary pricing:

1LITXTB ITX-Thunderbird CPU Board 507.00
1LCPU16 Pentium MCPU 1.6GHz FCPGA 614.00
1LCPU13 Pentium MCPU 1.3Ghz FCPGA 380.00

1LDD512 DDR-RAM 184 pin 512MB 153.00
1LDD256 DDR-RAM 184 pin 256MB 76.00
1LACOOL Active Cooler-Pentium CPU 20.00
1LITXCB ITX Thunderbird Cable Set 21.00

You will have to choose between a 1.6 or 1.3Ghz CPU and you will have
to
choose between a 512MB or 256MB DDR Ram. You must purchase an Active
Cooler
and a Cable set also.

I will see if Lippert will be lenient and allow us to purchase some of
these
boards for eval whenever they become available for shipment.

OUCH!!! That's waaaaaay more expensive than Euro converted price of "350 €. You can add 250 € for the CPU"
Even with shipping added on too.

Does anyone know of a more affordable source that will ship to the United States?

-Ed

splice · Post by **splice** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:24 pm

::sigh::

if only the pentium-M had hyperthreading......

a shame if you ask me, it could have been the most perfect consumer processor yet designed.

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:36 pm

splice,

Pentium M does not need hyperthreading.

Hyperthreading was built into Pentium 4, because at higher clock speed with a long pipleline and bad branch prediction error penalty, P4 needs more things to do each second.

HT is a partial solution to this and helps to use all clock cycles more effectively.

With a shorter pipe, lower frequency, less prediction penalty and tighter efficiency, Pentium M does not need and would probably not benefit from HT much at all.

regards,
Halcyon

jojo4u · Post by **jojo4u** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:06 am

Yes, my view to hyperthreading also is that is consumes more power than it gives back as performance - at least with today's software.

dago · Post by **dago** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:50 am

I've got confirmation about european prices.

Lippert Board : 402€ (german reseller)
Pentium-M 1.3 GHz : 250 € (french dealer)

without taxes (7.6% for CH, 20% for EU) and shipping ....

So, that brings almost to US costs if you add taxes + shipping.

splice · Post by **splice** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:20 pm

halcyon wrote:splice,

Pentium M does not need hyperthreading.

Hyperthreading was built into Pentium 4, because at higher clock speed with a long pipleline and bad branch prediction error penalty, P4 needs more things to do each second.

HT is a partial solution to this and helps to use all clock cycles more effectively.

With a shorter pipe, lower frequency, less prediction penalty and tighter efficiency, Pentium M does not need and would probably not benefit from HT much at all.

regards,
Halcyon

is this true even when multitasking? i have read what seem like miraculous performance gains (>50%!!) with hyperthreading over a P4 of equal clock speed without hyperthreading when multitasking various application combinations. from what i have seen the hyperthreading processor truly performs almost like two separate processors in the right circumstances.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:33 pm

HyperThreading is the real deal. I wouldn't expect massive gains, but it's a useful, performance enhancing-feature. Unlike.. say.. MMX.

There's no question that the future of CPUs is multiple cores on one die, this is just one small step in that direction.

Check Ace's Hardware for a nice article on HT.

Edwood · Post by **Edwood** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:08 pm

Prices for Boxed Pentium M 1.6GHz are around $350. $233 for 1.3GHz.

emjembedded.com's prices are waaaaay overpriced for Pentium M CPU's.

Do boxed Pentium M processors come with a HSF?

Where could I find a passive Heat Sink for Pentium M?

-Ed

Edwood · Post by **Edwood** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:15 am

Well, I'm taking the plunge. I'm going to order the Lippert Thunderbird Mini-ITX motherboard.

It will replace the Shuttle Mini-ITX FV25 motherboard in my Tiny Server.

I am considering possibly going with a desktop solution as well. Any decent Pentium M Micro ATX or ATX mobos easily available? I had to jump through alot of hoops to be able to obtain a Lippert Thunderbird in the USA.

-Ed

dago · Post by **dago** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:13 am

I think there's only 2 other solutions (AFAIK) :
* I-Pox 4MTS2B
* Radisys LM855

but I don't know any reseller channels. Price will be around the lippert anyway.

Otherwise, I think that's overkill for a server (not HTPC), but it depends on your requirements and budge, so I suppose you know better then me