Damping material?

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:51 pm

mkygod wrote:...

It's normally very expensive, because most places sell them by the box for hundreds of dollars. You can just buy them by the sheet at mnptech for 7.99 ( 24" x 16" x 1" ). Two or Three of them should be enough for a P150.

http://www.mnpctech.com/SonexWilltec.html

It should be effective for absorbing frequencies above 1 khz.

Awesome. Is a value of 0.73 @ 500Hz mean it isn't very effective at that value?

Thanks.

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:01 pm

Jay_S wrote:...
Then there's physical energy. Which brings be to my question:

jasonb885 "At the moment I mostly just want to stop the floor from vibrating from disks and fans"
Your hard drives and your case fans are vibrating your floors? Fan turbulence and disk whirring are both broadband noise, and shouldn't have enough energy to get your case panels resonating. So you're probably dealing with mechanical vibrations. Except for the dollar store vinyl floor tiles, I don't think mass loading your panels is going to be the most cost effecive solution for you. I would first try soft-mounting your fans and suspending your hard drives (with a spool or elastic, probably next to the floor tiles at the dollar store). You could also put carpet padding (try sorbothane feet for your case. Isolating and de-coupling your "vibrators" should be your first priority.

...
Diffusion foam would have a bigger impact OUTSIDE the case, if you were to cover all the adjacent walls and desk legs near the computer.

But again, I think you'll be better rewarded by isolating your, uh ... vibrators.

my .02,
Jay

Yes, I believe the mechanical noise is at fault. It's far less noisy than when I had several SCSI drives deployed. One failed recently and I was already in the process of replacing the others with commodity ATA drives. Since then, the vibration has reduced markedly. You can still hear it downstairs, though, although it's only moderately above the ambient noise level.

Couldn't I just stick some kind of noise absorbing material under the case? I'm totally cool with that. It doesn't have to look good or anything, just be effective. I'm also considering putting some kind of material immediately behind the case to handle the fan exhaust noise.

On the matter of suspension, my data's simply too valuable. Hard disk drives, at least in the 3.5" desktop form factor, have the expectation that the drive is mounted in a solid fashion. If you hold a spun up 3.5" disk in your hand, it tends to wobble as data is being accessed. The firmware on these drives doesn't expect the drive to be moving, as the housing moves away from the head as it seeks, and this can possibly be a source of confusion.

The potential risk to data integrity and drive lifespan isn't a risk I'm willing to take just yet. Otherwise, I might as well dump my RAID 1 configurations and just go to a single suspended ATA disk and not care about redundancy or redundancy of backups (to a separate machine with a separate pair of disks).

Much of my noise is high frequency, though, from poor quality fans spinning and disk noise. I should probably deal with that, first. I've been in the process of replacing some of my fans, but need to decide on some decent, but not overly expensive 8cm fans that I can run at +5V in my H700A full tower case. I have three noisy 8cm fans in there now and it's quite audible even down the hall. (Nothing like a rack of 2U systems in a server room, though.)

I get the impression I should concentrate on 1) externally facing case fans and then 2) internal fans. Not sure I want to payout for reasonably quiet Socket 370/ Socket A HSFs for my dual 733MHz P3 system, though. But then that decision comes after replacing these noisy 8cm externally facing fans.

I'm considering these, but haven't purchased yet.

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/nmb80ulqubr3.html

I can't really justify more than $5/ea as I need to buy about six 8cm fans. Sigh.

TomZ · Post by **TomZ** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:05 pm

jasonb885 wrote:The firmware on these drives doesn't expect the drive to be moving, as the housing moves away from the head as it seeks, and this can possibly be a source of confusion.

I haven't heard of this effect before. Could you please give us more information about this? I thought the head was just controlled by a stepper motor.

IsaacKuo · Post by **IsaacKuo** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:05 pm

TomZ wrote:
jasonb885 wrote:The firmware on these drives doesn't expect the drive to be moving, as the housing moves away from the head as it seeks, and this can possibly be a source of confusion.
I haven't heard of this effect before. Could you please give us more information about this? I thought the head was just controlled by a stepper motor.

Stepper motor? No, steppers are far too slow!

There have been many discussions about this effect and potential theoretical problems, along with actual testing here on SPCR. Essentially, the real life experience is that suspension has practically no effect on performance or seek reliability.

In any case, the effect on performance, if it exists, is never going to result in a perceptible difference. As for data reliability or hard drive lifespan, there's no effect at all--unless the suspension method interferes with cooling and results in high drive temperatures (i.e. placing the hard drive on a large block of foam).

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:39 pm

TomZ wrote:
jasonb885 wrote:The firmware on these drives doesn't expect the drive to be moving, as the housing moves away from the head as it seeks, and this can possibly be a source of confusion.
I haven't heard of this effect before. Could you please give us more information about this? I thought the head was just controlled by a stepper motor.

http://www.arcade-tech.com/arcade/ap-sh ... ation.html

As IsaacKuo indicates, it's been generally discarded as an issue.

I value my data too much, however, to take that kind of risk. Of course, my goal isn't complete silence, either, so I'm somewhat of an oddman out here anyway. (I have four systems spun up right now, 24/7.)

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:52 pm

jasonb885 wrote:Good question. I was about to ask something similar.

Anyone have any thoughts on these products before I buy all of them in pain?

At least one person here has commented that the asphalt stuff is nice insofar as it is heavy and helps weigh down cases, but can be smelly. The vinyl stuff is supposedly odor free. I'm also thinking about the foam itself, though probably for external use under each case and behind each case against the wall for the exhaust fan noise...

LIGHTWEIGHT VINYL SOUND DAMPING SHEET 10"x13"
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdet ... tab=7#Tabs

ACOUSTIC FOAM 2-1/2" 24"x18" UL94
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl ... er=260-515

ACOUSTIC FOAM 1-1/2" 24"x18" UL94
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl ... er=260-516

I was also looking at these from McMaster-Carr (linking to their JavaScript stuff is fairly impossible):

http://www.mcmaster.com/ (search by item #, xxxxTxx)

9709T26
23.86
Viscoelastic Asphalt
0.050"
24" x 54"
0.13
-20° to +180° F
0.4
Black

9709T19
14.62
Polymeric Mastic
0.070"
32" x 54"
0.10
-30° to +300° F
0.7
Black

Thanks!

Damn, beat me out to the PE link.

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:33 am

can still hear it downstairs, though, although it's only moderately above the ambient noise level.

Christ! Your pc's are vibrating your floors to such a degree that you can hear this through the ceiling of the room below?

Couldn't I just stick some kind of noise absorbing material under the case? I'm also considering putting some kind of material immediately behind the case to handle the fan exhaust noise.

You can absolutely stick stuff under your case and behind the exhaust fans. But these are bandaid fixes to what appears to be a much larger problem - why are your machines such jackhammers? There are ways to decouple hard drives withour resorting to loose suspension. For example, I really like the way this poster did it:

shades_of_blue wrote:

my data's simply too valuable... the potential risk to data integrity and drive lifespan isn't a risk I'm willing to take just yet...

...but then:

I can't really justify more than $5/ea as I need to buy about six 8cm fans.

You have priceless data on machines that are running 24/7 and can't spend more than $30 on fans? I don't mean to sound rude, but $30 is dinner for 2 or a couple of rounds of drinks. Surely you could budget these in somehow.

I have three noisy 8cm fans in there now ...

Have you tried running your existing fans at 5v? You can do this for free with the simple wire mods.

Socket 370/Socket A HSFs for my dual 733MHz P3 system

Whoa, I should be receiving my new/used 733 P3 socket 370 system this afternoon. Coppermines at this speed can be reliably cooled without fans - the Dell I'm getting is already sorta passive (it has only a heatsink and a plastic duct to the rear case fan), and I plan to improve on that quite a bit.

I've often thought about trying something like this for decoupling the pc case from the floor. If you can't suspend your drives, suspend the whole thing!

Jay

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:35 pm

Jay_S wrote:
can still hear it downstairs, though, although it's only moderately above the ambient noise level.
Christ! Your pc's are vibrating your floors to such a degree that you can hear this through the ceiling of the room below?

Yep, mildly. It's pretty nifty, actually. The high HZ noise also bounces down the stairs against the walls.

Jay_S wrote:
Couldn't I just stick some kind of noise absorbing material under the case? I'm also considering putting some kind of material immediately behind the case to handle the fan exhaust noise.
You can absolutely stick stuff under your case and behind the exhaust fans. But these are bandaid fixes to what appears to be a much larger problem - why are your machines such jackhammers? There are ways to decouple hard drives withour resorting to loose suspension. For example, I really like the way this poster did it:

shades_of_blue wrote:

That's a little unwieldy when you have six drives.

Jay_S wrote:
my data's simply too valuable... the potential risk to data integrity and drive lifespan isn't a risk I'm willing to take just yet...
...but then:
I can't really justify more than $5/ea as I need to buy about six 8cm fans.
You have priceless data on machines that are running 24/7 and can't spend more than $30 on fans? I don't mean to sound rude, but $30 is dinner for 2 or a couple of rounds of drinks. Surely you could budget these in somehow.

Nope, I can't. I won't pay for the Lexus of fans.

Brands like Panaflow and Nexus pimp to the 'silence crowd'. Many will pay whatever to get 'quiet'. You can get plenty quiet by buying something cheaper, I don't doubt. If that's not possible, I'll do without, but I'm not going to overpay for something so I can simply pimp that I have awesome Nexus fans or whatever.

Besides, I already spent the money on the drives. That's the whole point of running RAID 5 for data, RAID 1 for OS, and backing up to a completely separate RAID 5 array in a different system. I paid for the important part already, redundancy. And I already have fans, they're just loud. When I lived in a house with carpet floors it honestly wasn't a bother to me. Wood echoes a lot more.

Further, I hear so many bad things about Panaflo fans and quality control I wouldn't want to buy any for that price. With horror stories about stuff like Chinaflows, I'd rather get the $3 fan and take my chances; I'm taking my chances anyway with a Panaflo. Meanwhile Nexus is rumored to be far better, but the price is quite high.

I bought a random Yate Loom 12cm fan and at +5V it's actually pretty quiet, at least for my purposes. I'd like something similar in a 8cm factor -- good enough -- but not $10/ea.

Jay_S wrote:
I have three noisy 8cm fans in there now ...
Have you tried running your existing fans at 5v? You can do this for free with the simple wire mods.

I could. But they're really cheap. I'd rather replace them with fans that don't whine so much. Two are already wearing out and need to be re-oiled or replaced anyway. Might as well replace them with, if findable, fans that are reasonably priced, but still considered mildly silent @ +5V. I don't need the Lexus of quiet, but something reasonably inexpensive that may fail for most SPCRers is probably fine for me.

Jay_S wrote:
Socket 370/Socket A HSFs for my dual 733MHz P3 system
Whoa, I should be receiving my new/used 733 P3 socket 370 system this afternoon. Coppermines at this speed can be reliably cooled without fans - the Dell I'm getting is already sorta passive (it has only a heatsink and a plastic duct to the rear case fan), and I plan to improve on that quite a bit.

I've often thought about trying something like this for decoupling the pc case from the floor. If you can't suspend your drives, suspend the whole thing!

Jay

Can you? These CPUs run around ~ 40C with the stock HSFs. I don't know that I'd feel comfortable running them completely fanless unless I could stick a large, expensive passive HSF on it and that's more expensive than a quiet HSF.

I know many like to mod. I don't. I'm not seeking the perfect solution. I'm just looking for a reasonably priced solution to reduce the noise to a more acceptable level.

And I don't believe I need to blow $10/ea for quieter fans just to accomplish that. Given how creative many here are with random stuff from Home Depot and whatnot, I was hoping for a thrifty solution that minimizes both cost and deployment time.

I'm sure there's a minimum cost function for that, somewhere.

Trunks · Post by **Trunks** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:15 pm

jasonb885 wrote:....
Nope, I can't. I won't pay for the Lexus of fans.
....
I bought a random Yate Loom 12cm fan and at +5V it's actually pretty quiet, at least for my purposes. I'd like something similar in a 8cm factor -- good enough -- but not $10/ea.
...

the Cooler Master fans in 6 packs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811999084 are quite at 7 volts.
If you have dust issues expect that after a year you will be replacing one or two.
I bought mine at fry's for more than this and Thought it was a deal.

jasonb885 wrote:....
I know many like to mod. I don't. I'm not seeking the perfect solution. I'm just looking for a reasonably priced solution to reduce the noise to a more acceptable level.
...

Good inexpensive solutions that do not require changing your machine.
With so much hard drive noise the easy solution is to move your computer behind your desk or better the wall. The second is to put a blanket or a pillow around it. make a large tunnel for air to move out of. Just watch your temps.

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:36 pm

jasonb885 wrote:I'm not seeking the perfect solution. I'm just looking for a reasonably priced solution to reduce the noise to a more acceptable level.

And I don't believe I need to blow $10/ea for quieter fans just to accomplish that. Given how creative many here are with random stuff from Home Depot and whatnot, I was hoping for a thrifty solution that minimizes both cost and deployment time.

I'm sure there's a minimum cost function for that, somewhere.

The silencing challenge you pose is not trivial. A PC with SIX hard drives that makes the floor vibrate enough for it to be audible downstairs. I can only imagine the horrific racket this makes.

Your attitude about how much $$ and effort you should spend on this task is hardly inspiring. You waive off the most fundamental of HDD silencing approaches and insist there are better ways and that we as a community must help. ("blow $10" indeed.

)

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:12 pm

MikeC wrote:
jasonb885 wrote:I'm not seeking the perfect solution. I'm just looking for a reasonably priced solution to reduce the noise to a more acceptable level.

And I don't believe I need to blow $10/ea for quieter fans just to accomplish that. Given how creative many here are with random stuff from Home Depot and whatnot, I was hoping for a thrifty solution that minimizes both cost and deployment time.

I'm sure there's a minimum cost function for that, somewhere.
The silencing challenge you pose is not trivial. A PC with SIX hard drives that makes the floor vibrate enough for it to be audible downstairs. I can only imagine the horrific racket this makes.

Your attitude about how much $$ and effort you should spend on this task is hardly inspiring. You waive off the most fundamental of HDD silencing approaches and insist there are better ways and that we as a community must help. ("blow $10" indeed. )

No, no, and no.

I insist nothing. You're feel to offer any assistance at your own peril, obviously.

My attitude is simply that

1) My issue of noisy fans ought to be resolvable without spending $10 per unit -- It's a fan for gosh sakes! If that's absolutely unrealistic, feel free to call me on it and I'll reevaluate the situation accordingly, but my $5 Yate Loon 12cm claims otherwise, so cheap 8cm fans must exist that are quiet

2) I don't believe disk suspension is practical for a machine with six disks or is particularly safe given the physics involved; I know others believe suspension is completely safe, but I'm waiting for a hardware engineer to provide a persuasive argument before I suspend my $500 of disks

3) It doesn't have to be silent; nor even quiet. I'd just prefer to replace the most outrageous components with reasonably priced, mildly noisy components, if such items exist at what I consider to be a practical price to pay

Obviously we have very different monetary priorities and ideas of what 'value' is. Forgive me if I don't believe a small _fan_ should cost _$10_ per unit and that no reasonable substitute exists.

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:16 pm

Trunks wrote:
jasonb885 wrote:....
Nope, I can't. I won't pay for the Lexus of fans.
....
I bought a random Yate Loom 12cm fan and at +5V it's actually pretty quiet, at least for my purposes. I'd like something similar in a 8cm factor -- good enough -- but not $10/ea.
...
the Cooler Master fans in 6 packs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811999084 are quite at 7 volts.
If you have dust issues expect that after a year you will be replacing one or two.
I bought mine at fry's for more than this and Thought it was a deal.

Awesome. Exactly what I'm looking for! I'm going to pick up a pack tonight.

Trunks wrote:
jasonb885 wrote:....
I know many like to mod. I don't. I'm not seeking the perfect solution. I'm just looking for a reasonably priced solution to reduce the noise to a more acceptable level.
...
Good inexpensive solutions that do not require changing your machine.
With so much hard drive noise the easy solution is to move your computer behind your desk or better the wall. The second is to put a blanket or a pillow around it. make a large tunnel for air to move out of. Just watch your temps.

That's an interesting idea. Definitely have to watch temps.

IsaacKuo · Post by **IsaacKuo** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:27 pm

jasonb885 wrote:
Trunks wrote:the Cooler Master fans in 6 packs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811999084 are quite at 7 volts.
Awesome. Exactly what I'm looking for! I'm going to pick up a pack tonight.

Prepare for disappointment, then. Those fans may be quiet at 7 volts, but that means --GASP-- doing an undervolting mod. You can save yourself the money and simply undervolt your existing fans and you'll probably get good results. Even if your existing fans aren't sufficiently quiet at 7 volts (I can't imagine they'll be audible over your SIX hard drives), then you've at already accomplished the effort of the undervolting mod for those Cooler Masters.

I know your attitude about suspending your hard drives, but I would personally trust suspended hard drives rather than hardmounting those six hard drives. As you say, the vibration is incredible--if anything is going to shorten hard drive lifespans, undergoing constant excessive vibrations surely will. You're right that hard drives are designed with hard mounting in mind--but NOT hard mounting within a severely vibrating drive cage.

You wouldn't trust $500 worth of hard drives in soft mountings? I wouldn't trust them in a shared heavily vibrating hard mount.

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:10 pm

IsaacKuo wrote:
jasonb885 wrote:
Trunks wrote:the Cooler Master fans in 6 packs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811999084 are quite at 7 volts.
Awesome. Exactly what I'm looking for! I'm going to pick up a pack tonight.
Prepare for disappointment, then. Those fans may be quiet at 7 volts, but that means --GASP-- doing an undervolting mod. You can save yourself the money and simply undervolt your existing fans and you'll probably get good results. Even if your existing fans aren't sufficiently quiet at 7 volts (I can't imagine they'll be audible over your SIX hard drives), then you've at already accomplished the effort of the undervolting mod for those Cooler Masters.

You're right. I'd never +7V mod. I can't imagine why someone would risk hundreds of dollars in components by putting a PSU at risk. There's no reason when most fans spin up at +5V anyway.

And, yes, my goal is merely to reduce the fans below the noise floor set by the disks. That's actually what I would consider a very positive improvement. I doubt I'll be disappointed. My goal is merely to remove noise that I can reasonably remove.

IsaacKuo wrote: I know your attitude about suspending your hard drives, but I would personally trust suspended hard drives rather than hardmounting those six hard drives. As you say, the vibration is incredible--if anything is going to shorten hard drive lifespans, undergoing constant excessive vibrations surely will. You're right that hard drives are designed with hard mounting in mind--but NOT hard mounting within a severely vibrating drive cage.

You wouldn't trust $500 worth of hard drives in soft mountings? I wouldn't trust them in a shared heavily vibrating hard mount.

That's totally cool. To each his own.

While I can hear it through the floor, I do exaggerate my claim somewhat. It's only audible when it's completely quiet downstairs. With TV on even at a low volume, the washing machine running, the disk washer, even the refrigerator across the room, essentially render it inaudible.

But, yes, if I stand within a couple feet of the system and stand completely still, I can feel the vibration in the floor. It's a wood floor, though, so I don't think that's entirely unreasonable. The sides of the case only vibrate gently.

Even so, if that makes you uncomfortable, soft mount away.

Also, my existing fans are so old, they whine now, so they essentially need replacement anyway. I just wanted to shoot for reasonably quiet fans that don't break my limited budget for four to six fans. Coupled with running them at +5V the noise floor ought to be my drives, which is perfectly acceptable for now.

And if that's too much noise, I'd much rather move too a two disk setup, maybe two 500GB drives, since that's more space anyway...

In either case, I'd like to thank everyone for their comments. Before I didn't know specifically what kinds of noise I was dealing with and whether case insulation would help, and now I have a clear idea of what to tackle. That's invaluable information.

Thanks.

Trunks · Post by **Trunks** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:26 pm

IsaacKuo wrote: Prepare for disappointment, then. Those fans may be quiet at 7 volts, but that means --GASP-- doing an undervolting mod. You can save yourself the money and simply undervolt your existing fans and you'll probably get good results.

BTW I use the abit GURU chip/utility or fan speed to under volt, so yea no real PSU risk and they can ramp up when the temps get out of control.

shadestalker · Post by **shadestalker** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:58 pm

Since it sounds like modifying the existing internals is less than desirable, how about modifying the environment?

I don't have any experience with these, but maybe you could isolate your cases better from what they're resting on: http://acoustiproducts.com/en/acoustifeet.asp

An easy test might be to rest them temporarily on something cushy like foam or pillows. For that matter, a stable enough platform made of foam or whatever might be just the thing. Maybe blocks of sorbothane or something similar under your existing case feet...?

jasonb885 · Post by **jasonb885** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:21 pm

shadestalker wrote:Since it sounds like modifying the existing internals is less than desirable, how about modifying the environment?

I don't have any experience with these, but maybe you could isolate your cases better from what they're resting on: http://acoustiproducts.com/en/acoustifeet.asp

An easy test might be to rest them temporarily on something cushy like foam or pillows. For that matter, a stable enough platform made of foam or whatever might be just the thing. Maybe blocks of sorbothane or something similar under your existing case feet...?

Actually, I had tried some thick bubble wrap doubled up, but that didn't seem to have much effect.

Later, I bought some half inch acoustic foam, which seemed to help some.

The most effective change was actually acknowledging that my APC Backups Pro, despite being rather small, vibrated quite continuously. My bubblewrap was large enough that I was able to fold it length wise four times over such that it's 3/4th inch thick with the 30lb beast UPS resting on top of it.

Needless to say, most of the vibration when away. I can barely feel it through the floorboards now standing next to the UPS.

I really had never even considered...

Most of the vibration now is confined to the room itself and transmitted through the case panels from six spinning 7200 RPM disks. I haven't decided if I want to try to tackle that or not. Even if I wanted to softmount them, that's a lot of drives to realistically soft mount. Replacing them with a couple of very large drives really isn't in the budget, plus a speed hit as I have fewer spindles to shoot disk reads across.

But I digress. Stuffing the right kind of material under the case(s) did help.