The right case/PSU for my gaming system

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:22 am

Here are my system specs:

Abit IS7 Pentium4 DDR with 3.0Ghz 478Pin 800FSB CPU w/Fan w/retail box
Micron 1GB (512MB x 2) PC3200 DDR400 Dual DDR SDRAM
SAPPHIRE OEM RADEON 9800 PRO 128MB
Seagate 80GB Baracuda SATA Hard Drive (OEM-Sealed)
Samsung CD/RW

Ok here is the story: (if you are interested)

I wanted a new gaming rig and figured I would save a few bucks by putting it together myself. I built my last computer and have done many minor upgrades in the past but never a "high end" system. More importantly I didnt have $2500.00 to throw away.

I got all of my components for just over $1000.00 and then I bought my case and PSU....... I went cheap not knowing any better and for $50 I got a house brand case with a 420W PSU rated for a P4/AMD.

Well I got everything put together, and started installing the OS when 5 minutes into it, everything shuts off and I smell that (now all too familiar) slight burning odor. Power Supply was dead.

Rather than taking everything apart and sending the whole case/psu combo back to the online store, I just purchased a new (also cheap) 400W PSU from another vendor, for $15. Well when I got it up and running I noticed that it was super loud, and super hot. Not sure where all the noise and heat was coming from because I had all new equipment. I wasnt sure if it was the CPU fan the Video Card fan or the PSU fan, it may have been all three, but I really think the PSU fan was kicking hard. After 3 weeks, my system just shuts off in the middle of a game of UT2003. I was still getting power but not enough to boot the system back up.

So now I went to compusa and bought a 300W PSU and it worked for about two days and then the system just rebooted itself twice last night. It rebooted a few minutes into a game of UT2003. It was late last night and I didnt have time to do any more testing, but the system seems stable until I start a highend game like UT2003.

I figure I need a new case and PSU and I am looking at the EVERCASE 4252. I have seen them that come with a 300W PSU for about $64.

Is this going to be a good solution (or the best solution) to cool my PC as well as reduce the noise?

Thanks for reading my post.

sorenbro · Post by **sorenbro** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:32 am

I would say that if you pick up an Antec case, you are getting a nice quality case, along with a more than decent PSU. I think the SLK3700BQE or a sonata would fulfill your needs.

Zyzzyx · Post by **Zyzzyx** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:50 am

I'll toss a vote of confidence in for the EverCase 4252. Got one myself and have worked on a couple others. Great airflow ability, solid tool-free peripheral locations, and the supplied PSU isn't too bad. Or you can get it without PSU and get a Seasonic, Nexus, or whatever. Then you're looking at closer to $40 shipped. Best case for the money in that range, IMO. Beating out a fair number of higher priced cases that I've worked with.

Try a search for 'EverCase' in the forums, see what ya get back. Should be some good info.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:43 am

Get a fortron with 120mm fan. Mine works great, ive had 0 problems with it, and i have almost as good a rig as yours. (2.4 instead of 3.0 and 512mb of ram instead of a gig). Also the heatsink on your video card is either whining already, or will begin to whine. Im assuming you have the black saphire card with the 3 prong extra power connector. I have that same card. Eventually the fan will die and kill your card with it, I would replace that heatsink with a arctic cooling vga silencer or a zalman zm80c with the optional fan.

wsc · Post by **wsc** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:47 am

One more vote for Evercase 4252. Just got mine with the $32 Fortron 120mm fanned PSU. It's not the absolute toughest case out there, but it has great airflow and does better than basically any other case you will find for the money. It's pretty easy to tweak for better airflow too.

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:19 am

Thanks for all the quick replies.

I looked around for some pricing and I think I can get an Evercase 4252 for 38$ and a Fortran FSP350 for $45. That would put my total price at a reasonable $83.

I was also looking at the Antec cases like sorenbro mentioned above, but I am not sold on them yet.

I will wait a little longer to see if anyone else has any comments.

Now I will need to research my video card and see if I am going to have the same problem that GamingGod has had. (BTW I dont think I have the black card. I will check when I get home though)

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:25 am

If yours is black and has the 3 pin connector than youll probably have to replace that heatsink with something. Its a common problem with this card. Ive talked to people on other forums that had the same problem and also in the newegg comments on that card people are complaining about that problem.

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:33 pm

I think I am convinced to get the EVERCASE 4252.
Now I just need to make up my mind on the PSU.

I am wondering if I should spend the extra $20 for a Seasonic Super Tornado 300 or will the Fortron FSP350 be quiet enough and cool enough.

Any thoughts on this?

The Seasonic costs 50% more, but I am not sure if it is worth the extra dough?

wsc · Post by **wsc** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:52 pm

Unfortunately I don't have any hands on experience with Seasonic PSUs... my guess is that if your budget allows for it and you're really worried the Fortron won't be quiet enough, pony up the extra cash for the Seasonic...

FWIW, my FSP300 is essentially inaudible (even when right next to it) when it's at "idle" speed. I still haven't got my system finished to figure out how it will behave when in normal use, but if it stays that quiet, I will be extremely happy with it.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:40 pm

my fsp300 with a 2.4c and 9800pro never seems to speed up or make any real noise.

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:00 pm

Thanks all.

I have purchased an Evercase 4252 and the fortron PSU. Got them both from newegg.com for a total price of $80.00 (with S&H).

I should get it on Monday or Tuesday next week.
I will let you know how it works out.

And yes, I do have the black Radeon 9800 Pro card.
I will have to keep an eye and an ear on it.

I got UT2003 running tonight and I turned down 8x antialiasing to 4x in hopes of reducing heat and system crashes. But even with the side of the case off, the system reboots in the middle of game.
I havent been able to figure this one out at all yet. This was not happening two days ago. I guess I will have to wait for my new case and PSU and then see if it is still a problem.

I will let you all know how it goes.
Thanks again.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:20 am

your lucky if your video card fan is quieter than the one i have. Even when it is working right (after i boot up i have to smack it on the bottom of the heatsink to make it stop grinding) its still by far the loudest thing in my case and can be heardly clearly from the next room with the case closed and the door to my room closed.

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:11 pm

I think I just have too many variables going on right now.
I need to narrow the problems down one at a time and the first thing is the case and PSU, then maybe additional fans in the case and then the graphics card. (I saw one of your other posts and the guy who used a CPU heatsink for his 9800. But I am not ready to go there yet. And I pray I wont have to.)

I am also in the process of hooking both of my computers up to a KVM switch, my older 1GHz thunderbird with a GEforce2 is already humming away just fine in my closet. I was hoping to get my new one in there too, but with the heat problems I am having right now, I dont think it will ever be a good idea to put that one in the closet. The closet really helps with the noise and the long KVM cables let me put the machine out of my office and reclaim some space (plus only one monitor)

brianstretch · Post by **brianstretch** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:36 pm

P4's are extreme power hogs. Don't mess around, get a good 400W power supply. For the sake of being thorough get Motherboard Monitor and watch your voltage levels; odds are they're unstable and that's what's crashing your system.

The absolute best power supply you can buy is the PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 510W, which is what I have. Unfortunately, it's slightly louder than the too-loud Antec True550 (I had this silly idea that its thermistor-controlled fan would run slow/quiet on the moderate load I was giving it, oops), so I have a Seasonic Super Silencer 400W that should be delivered tomorrow, along with some other silencing gear. (SPCR gave me all sorts of neat ideas

).

Also run Memtest86. I doubt you're having memory problems but it's good procedure to test it.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:07 pm

Read the thread, how much will a 300w power supply run. And the answer is, you dont need over a 300w power supply unless your overclocking, with all the highest end components, several hardrives and optical drives ect. my 2.4c with a 9800pro is running PERFECTLY stable on my fsp300, and the fan never spins up, it never crashes or anything.

brianstretch · Post by **brianstretch** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:10 pm

Your 2.4GHz P4 burns significantly less power than his 3GHz P4 though (higher clock AND higher core voltage, the latter being the biggest problem). A good 300W supply may be adequate, but he doesn't have one, and if you're buying a new supply spending the extra bucks on a good 400W model is the way to go. It's just not worth thinking about when a marginal power supply is such a pain to troubleshoot.

If you want to get really nit-picky I'd say get a good UPS that does line filtering like the APC SmartUPS series. I have one, if only because I think having multi-month uptimes on my Linux server is cool.

aphonos · Post by **aphonos** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:31 pm

brianstretch wrote:Your 2.4GHz P4 burns significantly less power than his 3GHz P4 though (higher clock AND higher core voltage, the latter being the biggest problem). A good 300W supply may be adequate, but he doesn't have one, and if you're buying a new supply spending the extra bucks on a good 400W model is the way to go. It's just not worth thinking about when a marginal power supply is such a pain to troubleshoot.

If you want to get really nit-picky I'd say get a good UPS that does line filtering like the APC SmartUPS series. I have one, if only because I think having multi-month uptimes on my Linux server is cool.

brainstretch, Welcome to the SPCR Forums!

Talk about stepping in it right away

.....We should let you know that your first post pushed a typcial hot button around here--the idea that there is a need for more and more (unnecessary) PSU wattage to run today's systems

Actually, GG's 2.4C max draw is 75.1W and the 3.0 is 81.9W, so I wouldn't say that is "significantly less power."

Legacy's post in the "How much will a 300w power supply run?" thread shows a system with 2 Athlon XP 1700+ (~49W each) and a mess of other stuff running stable on 300W PSU.

These stats aside, if I'm reading correctly, foothoss already has a new Fortron PSU on the way next week, so I'm not sure he was still soliciting advice for what PSU to get....I think he made his choice. The trouble he is having with the current config seems to be the same with the 300w, 400W and 420W PSU's he's tried (agreed with you that none of these seem to be "good" PSU's). So, while his problem may have to do with a particular rail on the PSUs he is trying, his system's max load/total W draw is not likely to overload a 300W PSU.

foothoss, what are your system temps just before you crash?
Does your system crash when you are just loading the CPU or just loading the GPU? Seems like UT2003 brings them both under load. Try using Prime95 or 3DMark to isolate your loads to one component.

brianstretch · Post by **brianstretch** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:03 pm

brianstretch, Welcome to the SPCR Forums!

Talk about stepping in it right away .....We should let you know that your first post pushed a typcial hot button around here--the idea that there is a need for more and more (unnecessary) PSU wattage to run today's systems

Actually, GG's 2.4C max draw is 75.1W and the 3.0 is 81.9W, so I wouldn't say that is "significantly less power."

Legacy's post in the "How much will a 300w power supply run?" thread shows a system with 2 Athlon XP 1700+ (~49W each) and a mess of other stuff running stable on 300W PSU.

These stats aside, if I'm reading correctly, foothoss already has a new Fortron PSU on the way next week, so I'm not sure he was still soliciting advice for what PSU to get....I think he made his choice. The trouble he is having with the current config seems to be the same with the 300w, 400W and 420W PSU's he's tried (agreed with you that none of these seem to be "good" PSU's). So, while his problem may have to do with a particular rail on the PSUs he is trying, his system's max load/total W draw is not likely to overload a 300W PSU.

Stepping in it? Who, me?

Well, okay, you can run an awful lot off a good 300W p/s, and if Motherboard Monitor says the voltage rails are stable then cool. I guessed on the power draw diff from 2.4GHz to 3GHz on the P4, guess I guessed wrong (oops). I missed the bit about the Fortron PSU being inbound. Since I like to overengineer things whenever possible I usually go straight to good 400W+ power supplies, with the exception of Antec True330's for a couple of low-wattage systems. Also since I tend to do frequent upgrades (new toys!) it's nice to have lots of expansion capacity on hand. Fortunately it sounds like AMD's upcoming 90nm die shrink is going to cut power consumption quite a bit, so... ok, maybe the higher-wattage supplies aren't so needed anymore. That'll be nice.

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 6:46 am

Just to jump back in here...

Yes my new case and PSU are on the way.

Without doing thorough research (like I should have), when I built my system, I just opted for a larger power supply (420 and 400). Not realizing the importance of quality, airflow, etc... vs. wattage.
After doing some minimal research I have decided that the fortron 350 will suffice.

I was running Hardware Doctor (which came with the MOBO) but it beeps and puts up a quick error message, then goes away immediately, I have not been able to configure it to keep the errors up after the Temp/voltage has gone back to acceptible levels (I think I recall seeing the voltage once spiking). I will look into trying to get some temps to post, maybe I will use a different utility.

And finally an update on the system last night.
I came home from work, booted the system without the KVM switch and the side case off. It ran smooth for about an hour of UT2003. Then I put the KVM switch back on and no problems the rest of the night. Couldnt quite figure it out.
But now I think brianstretch hit something that I didnt realize. Two nights ago when the system crashed repeatedly, I was plugged into an old UPS (Maybe an APC backups 300) but last night, without any crashes I had the machine on the other side of the room in my newer UPS (APC Back-UPS ES 350).
hmmmmmm....
I will do a little more testing tonight.

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:02 pm

Well I got my new case and PSU today.

Hooked it all up and everything seems to be fine temperature wise (it is still a little warm, but I am still tweaking).

It seems a little loud still. I was hoping to reduce more noise.
It is definately not the PSU.
I can only hear it when I crank it up or put my ear right next to it.
It is either the CPU, CHIP or Radeon fan. (I am leaning towards the Radeon Fan right now.)

I will post some pictures tomorrow.

In the meantime, I have some new questions about airflow and where to place my additional fans, but I will start a new thread for those.

I want to thank everyone who helped me out in my purchase decision. This Evercase is 10x sturdier and easier to work with than my cheapo case which I had ( and it was not that much more expensive either) and my Fortron power supply is quality all the way.

foothoss · Post by **foothoss** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:14 pm

Well here are my photos (for those that were anxiously awaiting) LOL.

Here we have the two cases side by side. Not much difference on the outside. Except the new one doesnt have the cool "USB" logo on the front.

Here is a side view of each. Look at the mess of wires. It is hard to see from the picture but the new case is about 1 inch longer in length and made all the difference working inside it (even through the first half of the job before I realized that it is only 3 screws to take that damn green fan off)

Closer view of the old case. You can see that there is not a whole lot of room between the hard drive and the ATI 9800 Card. Terrible airflow.

And just to make the airflow worse, you can see that the PSU as very tiny vents at the top of the unit. Not good at all.

Ahhh the new fortron 350. I had to put this photo in just to show that I am becoming a true geek.

Here is the beginning of my installation into the New evercase.
This discouraged me a little bit since I am not a modder (yet) and dont have tools to cut anything.

But I do have a screwdriver so the situation was resolved (damn grill impedes airflow anyways)

Here is the completed unit. I have since added an 80mm exhaust fan in the rear and lowered the HDD to the bottom position. I have also covered the hole in the side of the case and thrown that green fan into my box of goodies. (Note* The answer to all your Windows problems is on my desk)

jtcb · Post by **jtcb** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:03 pm

foothoss,

thanks for the picture. It answered some of the questions on my thread.
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=8836

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:18 pm

If your lucky enough for your 9800pro heatsink to not die, it would still do you good to replace it with something. I would guess that it is now your loudest component. Also I would keep a close eye on it. Ive heard of at least a dozen cases of the heatsink on that card dying shortly after buying it. Its not just my card, so watch it for your own sake. It might start screaching and shortly after stop all together, leaving you with a dead $300. video card.