Fong Kai FK-333 -- E-ATX DOES NOT FIT!!

[DrJ]

I recently inquired here about a case for a case that would be quiet and hold an extended ATX motherboard. Ralf recommended the Fong Kai, and in spite of some reservations, it looked pretty good. The review on Tom's Hardware (I know, I know) was also pretty favorable, so I ordered the case. It arrived today.

Since this case is the topic of a current thread, I thought I'd give my first impressions as a new thread.

The good: very attractive - much more so than the pictures would lead one to believe. Nicely packaged. Solid - really solid. Massive, actually. It is a wonderful difference from most other cases I looked at, like most Antecs. Nice finish and craftsmanship (though the HDD bays are tilted and not square). The toolless design works, and is pretty clever. Generally the review here paints an accurate picture of the case (which helps, since it came with no manual).

The bad: it simply does not fit an E-ATX board. My motherboard (Tyan K7X Pro, a dual Athlon) is about 1/4" too long in the top right corner. That's not right, actually. The case is 1/4" too short there.

If one looks carefully at the interior pictures in the review article here, one can observe the "triangular" cut-outs for mounting the motherboard. Near the front of the case, follow the line of these triangles vertically, and the top one is missing. It is buried behind the lowest 5.25" external drive tray. The cut-out is there, alright -- removing the right side cover shows that it is indeed present, but that the external drive bay is placed right over it.

As the design is implemented, it will never fit an E-ATX board without Dremel surgery. And even with that, use of the lowest 5.25 drive bay will be compromised.

Also worth noting is that the clamp for the video card was not included. It doesn't matter much to me, but since it was mentioned in the review, I thought it worthwhile to note. Also, there are no fans included at all. Oh, and a 92 mm Panaflo does not fit in the front intake funnel. Finally, the Fortron 350 W power supply I bought does not really fit that well. The case has support brakets that interfere with the fan grill (an 80 mm fan would work fine, but the manufacturer appears not to have considered use of a 120 mm fan), and the PS mounts towards the front of the case do not fit. For perspective, the PS issue is minor.

As you can probably tell, I'm a bit frustrated at the moment. It looks like a flawed implementation of an excellent design. A lot of the excellence comes through, and I'd like to like the case. But a case hasn't much use if the motherboard does not fit.

I've not decided what to do yet, though I must admit that I expected better for the cost of the thing (over $200 including the case, shipping, power supply and fans).

Grumble...

DrJ

[ColdFlame]

Wow! That a bummer! Still it is a wonderful case and as you said yourself nothing that a Dremel won't fix Dremel it and then enjoy it!!!

[DrJ]

Well, that's probably what I'll do. But it does seem silly -- leave your screw drivers home, but don't forget the grinder. That is convenience?

DrJ

[ColdFlame]

When I looked at FK website it seemed like this is the only model of this style/type which means this is the v1.0 of this design. With v1.0 it seems we are all doomed to use Dremel at times. Don't despair I want this case real bad and you have it already

[DrJ]

I've removed the offending 2 sq inch piece of metal with a Dremel (and sacrificed a half dozen cut-off discs in the process). Tough metal; even the pop rivet did not yield without a struggle. My motherboard now fits!

I understand your comment about first versions often being "incomplete." Still, this is fundamentally a company management decision that the early adopters become, in essence, beta testers. Good companies that value their reputations simply do not operate this way. One example is Kodak, where I worked many, many years ago. Their new products went through a rigorous procedure to ensure that they worked properly. And they did, at least when I worked there.

As I said before, I like the case. But the claim that it fits an E-ATX board is simply false as the product currently stands. This should have been caught before product release.

On to the challenge of routing cables, all of which seem to terminate right in the air path.

DrJ

[Jeff.Stalnaker]

I wish I had a chance to speak with you before you got out the dremel.

There are two versions of this chassis. An ATX and an EATX. They both use the same frame. However the EATX has two optical bays and four 3.5" bays to allow the installation of the larger motherboard.

[DrJ]

I wish I had known about that as well. It certainly would have made life a LOT easier. Still, I read and reread the various reviews, the product ad at directron, and the manufacturer's web site. I saw no mention of this anywhere. Did I miss something?

DrJ

[MikeC]

I fired off a quick email to Jeff at FK-USA about this thread, and he responded lightning quick:

Here is an email we had early in the review stage. I probably should have suggested we clearly state this, however the reseller should not have made this mistake. Our/my contact info is clearly visible on our web site. If there were problems I wish the guy would have contacted me before pulling out the dremel. We could have made non-destructive arrangements.

Jeff

The email Jeff refers to stated:

There is an optional AGP bracket that has spring loaded tension arms....

We have different mounts for ATX and EATX motherboards. This allows us to use the same frame for both models.

The ATX chassis you have holds three optical devices. The bottom optical device inhibits mounting an EATX motherboard.

The EATX model has two optical bays and four HDD’s allowing room for an EATX up to 13”.

In the near future the EATX model will have a universal mounting plate.

[DrJ]

Jeff answered here as well. That does clarify things, but I must say that the various reviews, or the manufacturer's web site, for that matter, did not make this model differentiation clear. Indeed, this is the first that I have heard about the different drive configuration for the E-ATX board.

FWIW, it does appear that if the drives are reconfigured as Jeff mentions that the spacing would work out just fine. The drive complement would have worked out even better for my needs.

Jeff's comment that I should have approached him first is valid, and in fact it is the course I usually follow.

I remain intrigued by Jeff's comment that something "nondestructive" could have been worked out. Since the drives housings are all mounted by rather solid pop rivets, I would assume that some sort of exchange is what he had in mind. Unfortunately, I need the machine up and running (it is overdue, in fact). That's my problem, and not his, but given that the dremel solution seemed the best solution. If that's not correct, then I'm all ears.

Mike, might a slight revision to your excellent review be in order to prevent others from falling into the same trap? Use of E-ATX boards is not that common, but I have to say that it is really difficult to figure out which cases do or do not fit these monsters. And this was mentioned rather prominently in the review.

[edit] The review was by Russ, not Mike.

DrJ

[ColdFlame]

Hey that Dremel solution seems to be the best: you got your motherboard in and you've got 1 additional optical drive bay

[DrJ]

Well, at the cost of one internal hard disk drive bay (2 optical/4 hdd vs 3 optical/3hdd if I read this correctly). FWIW, I would have preferred the extra internal HDD.

DrJ

[Joe DeFuria]

Oh, and a 92 mm Panaflo does not fit in the front intake funnel.

Could you elaborate?

Is your 92 mm panaflo too deep? (Is the fan depth liited to 25mm, or is there some other problem?)

[Jeff.Stalnaker]

The front fan attaches to a tooless plate that slides into the funnel. We discovered after the fact the chassis were shipped without it. We are in the process of getting them from overseas.

[Jeff.Stalnaker]

At the time the pics were posted on our web we only had the one prototype chassis. Our web site will be updated shortly to show the specific differences.

[DrJ]

I have received several inquiries about the service Fong Kai has given me with my case problems. I have been corresponding with Jeff Stalnaker, who has been doing a good job for me. It does appear that Fong Kai is trying hard to do the right thing.

Jeff offered to replace my case at no cost with one that fits my E-ATX board in exchange for mine (return freight would be on me). I declined only because mine works fine with the slight modification I made, and the reconfigured drive bays of the other unit (see below) were only of modest benefit. Happily, all the optical bays are available in my current case. Since my motherboard fits into a 1U enclosure, the angled memory slides right under the lowest bay.

Jeff has sent me the missing exhaust fan (Delta 120 mm), and has thrown in an AGP bracket for good measure, which I sincerely appreciate. Both currently are in transit. He has promised to send along the intake fan bracket once it has been manufactured (sounds like some time in February).

I still like the case. Its solid construction reminds me of my old CompuPro 8/16 (does that date me?) but the Fong Kai is of course much more modern and sophisticated. It does breathe well, and looks quite nice. And I do appreciate the many thoughtful features that are part of the design (like the Torx screws).

I cannot say yet whether it is quiet; I needed to get my computer up-and-running to perform some numerical simulations that I needed desperately. So I've not paid much attention yet to the fans and cable routing -- the CPU fans (Panaflos) are still at 12 volts, and the air flow split between the exhaust and power supply need some attention.

The case also seems to be related to Glen Gould, as it currently hums along with the music. I've not found the source of the vibration yet; it may well result from the modification I made. It seems to originate from the optical drive clamping mechanism. It may also be that I'm pushing the case much harder than the review, as mine has dual CPUs and a SCSI main drive (a 15K.3, FWIW). So it will never truly be silent, but it should be quiet. For example, the case seems to supress the SCSI whine nicely, but the seeks are of course quite loud.

Still, I'd urge a bit of caution with the Fong Kai until the distribution is staightened out. My case, the FK-333, was to have come with an exhaust fan and the intake fan bracket. It did not. There still is no instruction manual, either electronic or printed, though the article here goes a long ways to help one understand how the thing works. Jeff assures me that he has requested this. The case that accepts the larger E-ATX boards, the FK-343 (2 optical bays, 1 3.5" bay, 4 hard disk bays) is not really available yet, nor is the optional AGP bracket. Jeff is in discussions with Directron to sort that out. He is also contacting Tom's hardware to correct the US retail price. The web site, though revised to mention the FK-333 and FK-343, still has inconsistent information on the more detailed PDF file. Still, the revised web site would have helped me a great deal in not making the mistake I did.

It does seem to me that Fong Kai USA is working hard to correct these issues, and that they do stand behind their product. Still, I do wish that they had planned their product release with a bit more care.

Should any of the members here wish to have any questions answered, certainly feel free to ask here.

DrJ

[Ephemeron]

DrJ, I need updates on your case, badly. I'm considering getting one but it has some apparent nagging flaws that I just can't seem to get out of my head.

[Rusty075]

What issues do you have Ephemeron? I may be able to answer your questions. \


DrJ and I are probably the only two people who actually have this case.

[Ephemeron]

Cool. Okay. You asked for it.

I think the rear 120mm grill on the back is beautiful and nicely positioned. Why did they have to put some ghetto 92mm slot for the front intake that is off-centered and positioned in a lop-sided fashion on the left side of the case (see below in the lower right)?



Is it so they could stick the front ports in the center bottom? Jeez. Was it really worth having some ports there so they could only allow a 92mm to fit, instead of 120mm, and have it be mounted weirdly to boot?

While we're down here, what the hell is up exactly with the "fan funnel" for the 92 mm intake? Do you have a pic of the fan mounted? It appears from the threads I'm reading here that they forgot to ship the mounting device with it. Also, I don't understand why this funnel exists.



The ladder on the bottom, under the HDD bay... it said in the review that it "only" had 4 pop rivets holding it down. Have you or anyone you know succeeded in actually removing it? As someone who has never removed any rivets, is removing them likely to leave unsightly, gapping holes on the bottom of the case?

Furthermore, do you think the ladder on the bottom is meant to also add support to the HDD and optical bays above (as one continuous column)? Is the ladder mostly plastic or metal? What connects the top of the ladder to the bottom of the HDD bay?



What is this tooless stuff? Ug. Using a screwdriver is just not that hard. Do any parts that go in the tooless mounts anywhere rattle because the components cannot be sealed as tight as they can be with tools? Ug.

Finally, doesn't all the openness in the front make the PC noiser, even with plenty of silent components?

That's about it. If I sound angry it's because I really wanted to like this case. I love the back. The contruction looks solid. The design decisions in the front just irritate me to now end though.

[Ephemeron]

PS- Why does the front of the chasis look, to put it mildy, like some alien with acid semen jizzed all over it?

[Rusty075]

Why did they have to put some ghetto 92mm slot for the front intake that is off-centered and positioned in a lop-sided fashion on the left side of the case (see below in the lower right)?
Is it so they could stick the front ports in the center bottom? Jeez. Was it really worth having some ports there so they could only allow a 92mm to fit, instead of 120mm, and have it be mounted weirdly to boot? While we're down here, what the hell is up exactly with the "fan funnel" for the 92 mm intake? Do you have a pic of the fan mounted? It appears from the threads I'm reading here that they forgot to ship the mounting device with it. Also, I don't understand why this funnel exists.

There's virtually no need to mount any fan on the front of this, or any other case. If you've got good intake vents, putting a fan there doesn't help anything. (and the FK's intake is among the best)

As for why the weird mounting mechanism....I have no idea. And neither, apparantly, does FKi-USA....they don't even appear to ship cases with the front mount anymore.

The ladder on the bottom, under the HDD bay... it said in the review that it "only" had 4 pop rivets holding it down. Have you or anyone you know succeeded in actually removing it? As someone who has never removed any rivets, is removing them likely to leave unsightly, gapping holes on the bottom of the case?

Grinding off rivets is pretty simple, you'll end up with perfect little holes about 2mm's in diameter.

Furthermore, do you think the ladder on the bottom is meant to also add support to the HDD and optical bays above (as one continuous column)? Is the ladder mostly plastic or metal? What connects the top of the ladder to the bottom of the HDD bay?

All metal; the green plastic PCI supports are applied on top of the metal substructure.

The 5.25" bays are riveted to the fornt of the case and the top. I think they'd be fine with the HDD rack removed.

What is this tooless stuff? Ug. Using a screwdriver is just not that hard. Do any parts that go in the tooless mounts anywhere rattle because the components cannot be sealed as tight as they can be with tools? Ug.

Ug.

No rattles from the tool-less mounts...just as tight as normal screwed ones.

Finally, doesn't all the openness in the front make the PC noiser, even with plenty of silent components?

Initially I had some concerns that the front bezel would allow extra noise out the front, but this proved not to be a problem. Although there would be more noise if you were running a louder HDD or an intake fan, overall the noise from the case was very subdued. I couldn't detect any rattle or vibrations during use, even when the DVD drive was spinning.

PS- Why does the front of the chasis look, to put it mildy, like some alien with acid semen jizzed all over it?

1. This is not OCAddiction. People here act, and talk, like grownups. Do the same.
2. If you think it's ugly, why are you interested?

[Ephemeron]

Thank you for that information, at least up to the point where you saw it fit to thumb your nose condescendingly at my off-coloured remarks. If you must know, I was refering to the chasis and the seemingly erractic placement of the chasis intake holes, not the front bezel. Only the latter is actually seen most of the time.

I had a couple of other follow-up questions, but your dry reprimand has prompted me instead to beg your forgiveness for offending your delicate sensibilities and to depart from this thread at once with due haste, letting it die the honorable death it deserves. No longer shall my foul presence besmirch the admirable character of the SPCR patrons in this hallowed group of postings in the Cases & Damping forum. A group of postings of such integrity must no longer suffer the indignities of a juvenille leper such as myself. With that, good sir, I bid you adieu. Let us hope to meet again under better circumstances.

[Rusty075]

I wasn't being condescending. I was making you, a member of less than 24 hours, aware of something that you obviously were not: that the quality of discussion here is generally of a higher caliber than that common at other PC hardware sites.

If that offended you, I apologize. Directness is usually the best way to nip such things.



*Edited due to my amazing ability to mis-spell virtually evey word in th english language. Doh.