Antec Sonata II availability and price

cwest · Post by **cwest** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:05 pm

There are several reviews of the Sonata II. Wondering if anyone has a feel for when this model can be purchased and which reseller usually has the best street prices for Antec cases—an estimate of the price would also be helpful. tia.

templarknightx · Post by **templarknightx** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:31 pm

I remember PC Mag estimating street price at $149 in their CES coverage.

And you saw reviews of the Sonata-II? Or just previews? If you found reviews, please link.

cwest · Post by **cwest** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:14 pm

If this is a preview, I’m sorry to have misled. However, it’s a pretty good insight in terms of what one may expect given some familiarity with Sonata I—de facto name I guess. Sure wish there was a time frame for release though. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article213-page5.html

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:53 pm

Yes, this is a preview. The article is coverage from CES, a well known tech convention where manufacturers preview their upcoming product lines.

patricksumner · Post by **patricksumner** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:28 pm

I just got back from Fry's where I looked at the Sonatas. They were not the Sonata II, but they were definitely different than the two I already own. They've now opened the sub-bezel according to the common modifications that users have made, and also cut out much of the sheet metal in front that was blocking air flow. The only thing they haven't done is to cut out more of the outer bezel bottom section. The case is now significantly improved over what was originally reviewed here.

I think I'm going to buy the Coolermaster Centurion 5 for my upcoming build though. I've got an idea on hard disk decoupling that would fix what I consider to be the main flaw in this case (I'll dump the power supply and fans) and I think it's absolutely the most beautiful case I've ever seen. Nice enough to look goood as an HTPC in the family room.

cwest · Post by **cwest** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:11 am

It’s good to hear that the Sonata I isn’t what it used to be—it’s improved perhaps to a point where one wouldn’t necessarily hold off purchasing because Sonata II is probably close to release—or ought to be.

I’m amazed to think that anyone would choose a Centurion 5, presumably in preference to a Sonata. I didn’t click around much, but this review (link below) is somewhat damming and leaves one with a clear impression that its inferior to a Sonata, particularly given that you already have 2 Sonatas, and you’ve modified them to suit your use. Would you care to share why you’ve made the decision to buy a Centurion 5?

(link to review http://www.legitreviews.com/article.php?aid=134)

Post by **Rusty075** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:29 am

That review has been discussed here before, and has several flaws.

If patrck is already planning on dumping the PSU, the Cent 5 is an excellent choice over the intake restricted Sonata.

Not to toot my own horn, but did you read our review of the Centurion V?

cwest · Post by **cwest** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:48 am

The difference between SPCR’s review and Legit’s really demonstrates the subjectivity and bias of reviewers. Although reviews and the comments that follow them are quite helpful it’s obvious to me that there isn’t any de facto process to determine the best or optimum value.

Although I’m new to the quiet/heat/performance conundrum, to me there seems to be an opportunity for a “smart” Reviewer to fill an evaluation void. For example, a simple measure although perhaps a challenge to consistently implement, is to divide cost by performance. If a combination of the cost of a case/PSU/fans is divided by noise (dba) in one equation and heat (celcius) in another, and the results weighted in terms of what’s important to a user, would remove a considerable amount of the subjectivity from reviews and give users a benchmark by which to make decisions. Imagine what standardized testing would do to manufacturers’ hype. Actually, to some extent Antec did this with one of their PSUs.

My objective is to have the quietest PCs and servers—I don’t want to hear them anymore. Obviously noise necessarily rises to dissipate increasing heat, and therefore the limiting factor to achieve my objective is cost. Given enough funds even a Cray—if they still make them—can be silenced. From the many (many) web pages I’ve read about silent/quiet computing, I’ve yet to see any use of a time honored axiom—if you can’t measure it you can’t choose (or manage) it.

I’ve obviously digressed from the “case subject,” and I apologize for laboring my point of view, but I’m one of those people that does need to have a mechanical paradigm under which to make decisions about computers. However, if I launch into selecting the best of breed components as it were I’d expect to also have to undertake some (case) surgery to put them together—kind of reinventing I suspect. Appreciate any feedback/comments from those that have gone before me

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:41 am

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but IMHO rigid benchmarks like you propose are an excuse not to use your brains. Plus those two numbers can vary wildly depending on what other components you combine with the case.

Building a silent computer is a little more complex than those two calculated numbers.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:12 am

cwest wrote:The difference between SPCR’s review and Legit’s really demonstrates the subjectivity and bias of reviewers....

What a load of nonsense. The SPCR review was packed with hard data (measured case temps, measured drive temps, measured PSU load testing) whereas the Legit Reviews "review" had nothing but a vague claim that "The 80mm intake fan was totally inadequate to even cool the hard drives placed right behind it" (without a shred of corroborative evidence, for that claim or anything else).

And I really don't see the point of a "de facto" process which simplistically weighed the measured results of a product against its street price as a definitive statement of its overall value... by that method a £10 no-name junk case would inevitably end up being the "best or optimum value" on the market. Value is entirely a subjective concept which depends on the compromises any particular individual is prepared (and able) to make... hence the market for >£10,000 hi-fis, >£100,000 cars, million pound houses etc. Provided the review's readers are provided with objective data about the product and they know its street price, they're best left to work out its value (to them) themselves.

Of course the reviewers will have their own subjective opinions about particular aspects of a product, but as long as they make it clear when they're expressing a personal view, I don't see the problem.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:29 pm

cwest wrote:Although I’m new to the quiet/heat/performance conundrum

...

From the many (many) web pages I’ve read about silent/quiet computing

What gives? Are you new to this or not?

cwest wrote:I’ve yet to see any use of a time honored axiom—if you can’t measure it you can’t choose (or manage) it.

A little insight into the meaning of a measurement goes a long way. The specific measurements that we draw at SPCR are representative at best. The difficulty with measurements is that they are directly applicable only to the particular setup they are measured on. Measurements say very little about the individual components that are measured. We are presented with a system, and we make measurements on the system as a whole.

So why do we make measurements at all if they're only relevant to the specific components that we use? Measurement provides a "snapshot" of the cooling and silencing potential of a case with one possible set of components. Good temperatures and noise levels in a particular instance constitute a small amount of evidence that the temperatures and noise levels in general might be good.

Reducing the performance of a case to a single number might be very simple and easy to understand, but it is not representative of an overall understanding of a case's performance. We review a case to provide a detailed understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of that case. There are no "one size fits all" cases, and reducing a review to a single "magic number" that purports to rate a case is extremely misleading because it glosses over the individual differences between cases.

If you think a single number can tell you all you need to know about a review, you need to look more closely at how you make purchasing decisions. If you're purchasing based on a single "objective" criterion, you need to look more closely at your needs for that purchase. The ultimate judge of the value of a product is how well it fits your needs — not how it performs as an average of all possible features, since there are many features that are not relevant to your decision.

cwest wrote:For example, a simple measure although perhaps a challenge to consistently implement...

I think you've already recognized that a truly "objective" review is completely impractical, and possibly impossible. A complete, "objective" profile of the cooling and silencing potential of a case would require several hundred thermal sensors both inside and outside the case, an anecholic chamber, 20 or so dBA meters, and some kind of graphic presentation of all the results to attempt to make them relevant to real world situations. Unfortunately, even the manufacturers of computer cases do not have the resources to invest in such a setup, although they certainly have some tricks that we, as a small independent site, do not have access to.

Ultimately though, why is it that you want an objective review? Most regular SPCR readers visit the site and read the reviews because they like our bias; SPCR is biased to prefer products that lend themselves to silent computing, and we are quite willing to sacrifice other aspects (performance, price) to achieve this. Not all readers are willing to make the exact sacrfices that we are, and their evaluations of the "value" of the products we review are different. This is what the subjective part of the review is for: we state the attributes of a product, and give our subjective "evaluation" of it. Readers who do not share our bias are free to ignore our opinions of it; alternately, our opinions might point out some relevant piece of information that they never considered before. However, even if a reader totally disagrees with our subjective approach, he can still get something out of the review by examining the attributes of the product and forming their own subjective evaluation of it.

Hopefully this clears up some misunderstanding as to exactly what we're doing when we review a product.

patricksumner · Post by **patricksumner** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:19 am

cwest wrote:I’m amazed to think that anyone would choose a Centurion 5, presumably in preference to a Sonata.
(link to review http://www.legitreviews.com/article.php?aid=134)

The system I'm looking at changing cases for has 5 disks. The Sonata might be made to work by either putting the fifth disk in a 5.25" slot, or hanging it below the lowest of the four sleds.

I did a lot of work to the Sonatas, including the standard front inner/outer bezel mods, and cut away a good portion of sheet metal in front, fabrication of a separated power supply chamber, a power supply chamber duct, a cpu duct, a spacer to get the intake 120mm fan away from the sheet metal immediately behind it to decrease input impedance, addition of feet to lift the case up ~1.5" and an additional filtered opening below the hard disk sleds in the bottom of the case. They work great with all the mods, and Antec has completed two of the mods I had by removing more sheet metal in front and opening up the innner bezel, but it's still a lot of work to do the rest and the cpu duct destroys the release mechanism for the side panel. Oh yea, I also finally dumped the Antec supplies in favor of Seasonics.

As for the Centurian 5, I won't be using the stock fans, nor the supply. I have an extra Seasonic I'll put in it. I'll also mod the hard disk cage (actually, I'll probably remove the whole thing and build something decoupled in it's place.) I'm going to be using this in-part as an HTPC, so I want something that looks nice in my family room. I love the look of the case. It's also $10 cheaper than the Sonata at Fry's.

patricksumner · Post by **patricksumner** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:38 am

Devonavar wrote:The difficulty with measurements is that they are directly applicable only to the particular setup they are measured on.

I think a lot of people don't realize this. Each system is different. Even two people with the exact same components could arrive at different conclusions if one lives in the Midwest without air conditioning and the other lives in Northern Alaska.

A good example is the apparent popularity of the Zalman 7000 cooler. I tried it and was not satisfied at all, even running sub 5V. The Thermalright SP-97 coupled with a quiet 90mm fan is far better FOR MY SETUP in terms of temperature to noise ratio. I run an Athlon XP2800+, A7N8X-E deluxe, 9800 Pro with Artic Cooling fan on low, and a Seagate 15k.3 H.D.

I think perhaps one of the few universally applicable techniques is undervolting. I dropped my Barton 2800+ vcore from 1.65+ down to 1.4+ (the plus being the slight overvolt that ASUS does) and had a 8 degree C drop in temp @ load. Definitely worth the effort even considering that I had to do L11 bridge modifications to achieve it. I'll never buy another M.B. that doesn't alow me to undervolt.

Kudos to SPCR for all the information I've gotten either directly from it's pages, or from links found on the site and forums. Great resource.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:03 pm

patricksumner wrote:As for the Centurian 5, I won't be using the stock fans, nor the supply. I have an extra Seasonic I'll put in it. I'll also mod the hard disk cage (actually, I'll probably remove the whole thing and build something decoupled in it's place.) I'm going to be using this in-part as an HTPC, so I want something that looks nice in my family room. I love the look of the case. It's also $10 cheaper than the Sonata at Fry's.

Not sure if this helps or hurts, but I think I saw the Centurion 5 without PSU for less than $60 in a local B&M... Fry's is now in so many places, I don't know if you're local.

The stock fan I find is fairly decent. At least, my sample of the 120mm is quiet. Seems like Rusty got a noisier version in his review.

The PSU definitely needs to go. I'm still waiting for more widespread availability of the 430W S12 (and the review - hint hint!)

If you do cut out the cage, please post pics! I'm interested in how you intend to do it.

Edit : apologies for the thread hijack...

poohbear · Post by **poohbear** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:47 pm

Got any full pics of this Antec Sonata II? My only complaint with Sonata I is that it's kind of plain and ugly.