Ducting
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Ducting
Where in the UK can I buy some decent flexible ducting tube? I'm planning on putting together a PC where every heating component has it's own isolated airflow (hopefully enabling insanely slow fans). Obviosly with this maybe ducts around, I can't just use big solid things, as cables would get in the way.
Although... if I made up some exact square section things out of plastic sheeting or whatever*... that would look immensely cool and probably work better, as I could make everything the exact same size as the fans in use.
Here's the plan:
PSU - fairly obvious, standard thing I expect. In the top of the case, into the back of the PSU and out.
CPU - I have one of those tower heatpipe things, with a fan going through it sideways. So I can basically do something roughly following the shape of the PSU (maybe even the same intake?) and going out the top of two 80mm fan holes in the back.
Graphics - In the lower 80mm hole, over something like a VM-101 and out of the spare expansion holes above the card (it's PCI-e)
This just leaves the northbridge, HD and ram. I'm thinking maybe of doing them in one - coming in the front fan, over the HDs, up across the NB, past the RAM and out of the case top. The ram slots and nb are almost perfectly in line, so this might work. Alternatively I could cut a hole in the side panel at the bottom, taking a duct just up over the nb and ram. Then one next to it taking the air from the front fan and HDs.
Hmm quite a ramble, I was only going to ask about the flex stuff, but I probably won't use it anyway if I'm trying to go over little heatsinks and stuff!
Any thoughts?
*I don't know what this stuff called. Imagine... the little artist header cards you get behind CDs in a music shop. That kinda thing! I figure it'd be fairly easy to work with. Just need to remember some geometry to cut it all perfectly That said, is there anything else you'd recommend? It doesn't need to be solid.. just be able to hold it's shape when glued into a box.
EDIT: on closer inspection of the layout, it's probably more sensible to take a duct from the side panel, over the VM-101 and out of the lower 80mm rear hole instead I'd take some photos and draw on them if I knew where my camera was! I should only have one extra fan than normal - the one cooling the NB and RAM, and that's if I decide to have them seperate from the HD. SO noisewise this should be good, and hopefully very cold since everything's getting fresh external air
EDIT2: I guess as long as everything is like... in parallel, it doesn't matter if any ducting is shared? I mean... I can have the same intakes and exhausts, so long as it splits either side of the components. So on that basis, the air could come in the top of the case for the CPU, through the cooler, and join the exhaust from the VGA duct, over a fan. This would increase CPU cooling too. Although I suppose decrease the VGA cooling, as some of the fan's airflow is being "stolen" by the CPU. Maybe that's a better tradeoff though, as the CPU is likely to generate more heat?
EDIT3: I'll be impressed if anyone reads through all this I've just seen that silverstone TJ06. Quite a price tag, but most of the work done for me All I'd need to do is:
- join a duct from the VGA card to the end of the main duct next to the 120mm fan (possibly with a fan in it)
- mount my single hard drive in one of the floppy bays, or 5.25 bays in a silentdrive
- duct the 80mm fan onto the northbridge
- cut through the now empty hd enclosure for a main case exhaust
OR
- cut through the now empty hd enclosure, seal off the bottom of it, thus isolating the PSU
I've never had a problem with HD heat, but if I do, it shouldn't be hard to fit something there.
Only problem I see is with the ribbon cable going from my soundcard to it's front box (terratex DMX 6fire) but I can easily extend that
Although... if I made up some exact square section things out of plastic sheeting or whatever*... that would look immensely cool and probably work better, as I could make everything the exact same size as the fans in use.
Here's the plan:
PSU - fairly obvious, standard thing I expect. In the top of the case, into the back of the PSU and out.
CPU - I have one of those tower heatpipe things, with a fan going through it sideways. So I can basically do something roughly following the shape of the PSU (maybe even the same intake?) and going out the top of two 80mm fan holes in the back.
Graphics - In the lower 80mm hole, over something like a VM-101 and out of the spare expansion holes above the card (it's PCI-e)
This just leaves the northbridge, HD and ram. I'm thinking maybe of doing them in one - coming in the front fan, over the HDs, up across the NB, past the RAM and out of the case top. The ram slots and nb are almost perfectly in line, so this might work. Alternatively I could cut a hole in the side panel at the bottom, taking a duct just up over the nb and ram. Then one next to it taking the air from the front fan and HDs.
Hmm quite a ramble, I was only going to ask about the flex stuff, but I probably won't use it anyway if I'm trying to go over little heatsinks and stuff!
Any thoughts?
*I don't know what this stuff called. Imagine... the little artist header cards you get behind CDs in a music shop. That kinda thing! I figure it'd be fairly easy to work with. Just need to remember some geometry to cut it all perfectly That said, is there anything else you'd recommend? It doesn't need to be solid.. just be able to hold it's shape when glued into a box.
EDIT: on closer inspection of the layout, it's probably more sensible to take a duct from the side panel, over the VM-101 and out of the lower 80mm rear hole instead I'd take some photos and draw on them if I knew where my camera was! I should only have one extra fan than normal - the one cooling the NB and RAM, and that's if I decide to have them seperate from the HD. SO noisewise this should be good, and hopefully very cold since everything's getting fresh external air
EDIT2: I guess as long as everything is like... in parallel, it doesn't matter if any ducting is shared? I mean... I can have the same intakes and exhausts, so long as it splits either side of the components. So on that basis, the air could come in the top of the case for the CPU, through the cooler, and join the exhaust from the VGA duct, over a fan. This would increase CPU cooling too. Although I suppose decrease the VGA cooling, as some of the fan's airflow is being "stolen" by the CPU. Maybe that's a better tradeoff though, as the CPU is likely to generate more heat?
EDIT3: I'll be impressed if anyone reads through all this I've just seen that silverstone TJ06. Quite a price tag, but most of the work done for me All I'd need to do is:
- join a duct from the VGA card to the end of the main duct next to the 120mm fan (possibly with a fan in it)
- mount my single hard drive in one of the floppy bays, or 5.25 bays in a silentdrive
- duct the 80mm fan onto the northbridge
- cut through the now empty hd enclosure for a main case exhaust
OR
- cut through the now empty hd enclosure, seal off the bottom of it, thus isolating the PSU
I've never had a problem with HD heat, but if I do, it shouldn't be hard to fit something there.
Only problem I see is with the ribbon cable going from my soundcard to it's front box (terratex DMX 6fire) but I can easily extend that
EnglFireball -
Hey that's funny, I have been recently searching for some flexible tubing that I could use as ducts as well!
Anyway, I went to a hardware store, and here's what I've found:
The first thing I noticed (and considered) was this excellent accordian-like flexible plastic tubing that is intended to be used as an exhaust for clothes driers. Unfortunately, there were two problems: (1) It's vynl, and has no heat specifications. In fact, an employee there told me that it isn't recommended for exhausting driers anymore as it is a fire hazard. So, that one's out of MY considerations. Also (2) it's not offered in many different sizes (the biggest size might've worked with an 80mm fan). There was also aluminum tubing of the same variety (flexible), and this was appealing at first because it came in a wider range of sizes, and obviously represents no fire hazard. Then I remembered the fact that I'm thinking of putting this in an electrical system, and I realized that aluminum tubing would be no good, as I don't want to short out my MOBO or video card or whatever.
Also, when I was posting in a different thread, voicing some of my ideas for ducting, a very experienced silencer (I forget who at this point) said that ducts don't really work well unless you're building your own case (a la Doug). And speaking of Doug, have you checked out that article? I'd say that his solution for cooling his PSU was original and probably the most effective and elegant solution that i've seen, ever. I also liked his placement of HDDs. Soon I'll post some diagrams of the case/system I plan to build, complete with ducts and such.
Finally, when you're thinking about ducts and routing hot air/cold air around your case, make certain that you won't be creating any air circles. That is, be sure that you have no exhausts that come out under an intake. Otherwise you run the risk of an intake drawing in air that's already been warmed up, and you've defeated the whole purpose of ducting. Also some people argue that if intakes and exhausts are even somewhat close together (i.e., exhause to the left/right of intake, or even exhaust right above intake), then you still run that risk (although this is IMHO unverified postulation).
EDIT: So now that my local hardware stores have failed me, I'm going back online. My first stop: mcmaster. I recommend you check there, too.
Hey that's funny, I have been recently searching for some flexible tubing that I could use as ducts as well!
Anyway, I went to a hardware store, and here's what I've found:
The first thing I noticed (and considered) was this excellent accordian-like flexible plastic tubing that is intended to be used as an exhaust for clothes driers. Unfortunately, there were two problems: (1) It's vynl, and has no heat specifications. In fact, an employee there told me that it isn't recommended for exhausting driers anymore as it is a fire hazard. So, that one's out of MY considerations. Also (2) it's not offered in many different sizes (the biggest size might've worked with an 80mm fan). There was also aluminum tubing of the same variety (flexible), and this was appealing at first because it came in a wider range of sizes, and obviously represents no fire hazard. Then I remembered the fact that I'm thinking of putting this in an electrical system, and I realized that aluminum tubing would be no good, as I don't want to short out my MOBO or video card or whatever.
Also, when I was posting in a different thread, voicing some of my ideas for ducting, a very experienced silencer (I forget who at this point) said that ducts don't really work well unless you're building your own case (a la Doug). And speaking of Doug, have you checked out that article? I'd say that his solution for cooling his PSU was original and probably the most effective and elegant solution that i've seen, ever. I also liked his placement of HDDs. Soon I'll post some diagrams of the case/system I plan to build, complete with ducts and such.
Finally, when you're thinking about ducts and routing hot air/cold air around your case, make certain that you won't be creating any air circles. That is, be sure that you have no exhausts that come out under an intake. Otherwise you run the risk of an intake drawing in air that's already been warmed up, and you've defeated the whole purpose of ducting. Also some people argue that if intakes and exhausts are even somewhat close together (i.e., exhause to the left/right of intake, or even exhaust right above intake), then you still run that risk (although this is IMHO unverified postulation).
EDIT: So now that my local hardware stores have failed me, I'm going back online. My first stop: mcmaster. I recommend you check there, too.
Last edited by PS on Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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OK posting this while eating pizza, apologies for typos.
The GFX card is an asus x800XT PCIe. CPU is a winchester 3800, with a thermaltake tower 112 (because I can have the fan in any direction )
PS - Use the aluminium stuff, and duct tape around it! Victory are you uk or us?
EDIT: ok just seen you're US. I may have less luck then...
The GFX card is an asus x800XT PCIe. CPU is a winchester 3800, with a thermaltake tower 112 (because I can have the fan in any direction )
PS - Use the aluminium stuff, and duct tape around it! Victory are you uk or us?
EDIT: ok just seen you're US. I may have less luck then...
What is your case like, anyway? It's kind of hard to visualize where you intend on putting these ducts without knowing where you intend to duct from and to, and whether there are things like hard drive bays in the way...
As for duct material--I make my own cases, and tend to favor a short straight duct made out of a plastic cup. I haven't had any situation require a duct with any bends, yet.
As for duct material--I make my own cases, and tend to favor a short straight duct made out of a plastic cup. I haven't had any situation require a duct with any bends, yet.
Two things to bear in mind when making ducts:
1) They can resonate, increasing fan noise considerably. So take care with materials, and relative position of fans. Also keep them as short as possible.
2) The flexible tube you refer to is normally ribbed and uneven. This causes turbulence which greatly reduces airflow and increases noise.
Personally I prefer to custom build my ducts out of cardboard (cereal packets normally!) as it is free, you can make them any shape you want and it doesn't resonate too badly:
I think you are trying to duct the air in your case a bit too much. Duct over the hottest components (CPU HS, PSU, GPU) to get the heat out of the case as efficiently as possible, so it doesn't recirculate. But let the general airflow through the case take care of the rest. The key here is to keep any other restrictions (cables, other ducts etc) out of the way, then a single slow fan will be more than enough to cool the drives, NB, RAM etc.
In general, look at the overall airflow through the entire system, rather than trying to tackle each component separately. Having said that, an 80mm fan PSU is a good candidate for a separate airflow path from an open CD drive slot straight through to the back.
Good luck and post your pictures when you've done, or even some designs for us to comment on!
1) They can resonate, increasing fan noise considerably. So take care with materials, and relative position of fans. Also keep them as short as possible.
2) The flexible tube you refer to is normally ribbed and uneven. This causes turbulence which greatly reduces airflow and increases noise.
Personally I prefer to custom build my ducts out of cardboard (cereal packets normally!) as it is free, you can make them any shape you want and it doesn't resonate too badly:
I think you are trying to duct the air in your case a bit too much. Duct over the hottest components (CPU HS, PSU, GPU) to get the heat out of the case as efficiently as possible, so it doesn't recirculate. But let the general airflow through the case take care of the rest. The key here is to keep any other restrictions (cables, other ducts etc) out of the way, then a single slow fan will be more than enough to cool the drives, NB, RAM etc.
In general, look at the overall airflow through the entire system, rather than trying to tackle each component separately. Having said that, an 80mm fan PSU is a good candidate for a separate airflow path from an open CD drive slot straight through to the back.
Good luck and post your pictures when you've done, or even some designs for us to comment on!
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You have to be careful when splitting ducts or sharing intakes/exhausts. Airflow is a lot like a beautiful woman... err, electricity. When it splits off to other areas, the amount of airflow that goes to each one depends on how restrictive it is. The path of least resistance is the preferred one; just as more current travels through the lightbulb rather than a 22 megaohm resistor in parallel, more air will flow through a larger opening leaving little movement in a cramped and restrictive PSU, for example.
In my PC I tried using ducts. But by blocking off certain areas to force an airflow path and careful placement of fans, I can control my case airflow more effectively and much more easily. It's a low powered system but I don't see why a similar setup wouldn't work with more powerful components.
In my PC I tried using ducts. But by blocking off certain areas to force an airflow path and careful placement of fans, I can control my case airflow more effectively and much more easily. It's a low powered system but I don't see why a similar setup wouldn't work with more powerful components.
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Hmm, maybe I should use more like... guides? At the moment I just have a standard layout cheap ATX case. But I could put in a couple of wide, curved sheets to guide the airflow that comes in the bottom front fan straight up over the NB and graphics.
I can easily take the PSU through to the top 5.25 bay, and in fact, the CPU to 2 of them lower down
The only problem I have is a ribbon cable going from my soundcard to its front box, which isn't standard IDE so can't easily be replaced with a round one.
I can easily take the PSU through to the top 5.25 bay, and in fact, the CPU to 2 of them lower down
The only problem I have is a ribbon cable going from my soundcard to its front box, which isn't standard IDE so can't easily be replaced with a round one.
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If that picture is roughly to scale, then the guides are basically redundant. All you really need is the guide/duct from the CPU to the rear of the case. With that, the PSU, CPU, and GPU will all get fresh air with no recirculation.
I would recommend moving the CPU fan to the rear of the case. The way you have it, there will be some backpressure on the fan from the CPU cooler, as well as a "dead spot" at the center of the fan. With the fan at the rear of the case, there will be no turbulent airflow and no "dead spot" as the fan sucks air through the CPU cooler.
You shouldn't need the intake fan on the hard drives--suction from the three rear case fans should provide plenty of airflow.
I would recommend moving the CPU fan to the rear of the case. The way you have it, there will be some backpressure on the fan from the CPU cooler, as well as a "dead spot" at the center of the fan. With the fan at the rear of the case, there will be no turbulent airflow and no "dead spot" as the fan sucks air through the CPU cooler.
You shouldn't need the intake fan on the hard drives--suction from the three rear case fans should provide plenty of airflow.
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I'll move the CPU fan to the back then
As for the guide... that's just to stop the airflow from the front fan being "wasted" on the sound and wireless, and stopping underneath the graphics where there's no heatsink.
There won't be suction from three rear case fans though, only one - the others will only be pulling air only over the CPU and PSU.
As for the guide... that's just to stop the airflow from the front fan being "wasted" on the sound and wireless, and stopping underneath the graphics where there's no heatsink.
There won't be suction from three rear case fans though, only one - the others will only be pulling air only over the CPU and PSU.
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Ok so finally got the rest of the parts in the post today. Plugged everything together to set it all up before I start silencing and... nope
It won't boot! It gets as far as the ram check, checks the ram, displays the "press del for setup" etc. and locks there. Once it went into setup, but I didn't change much - enabled USB keyboard, etc. Twice it's got as far as saying "windows didn't start properly, want to start in safe mode" but just rebooted whether I chose normal or safe.
GRR!!
So... patience please, for the whole ducting report thing.
It won't boot! It gets as far as the ram check, checks the ram, displays the "press del for setup" etc. and locks there. Once it went into setup, but I didn't change much - enabled USB keyboard, etc. Twice it's got as far as saying "windows didn't start properly, want to start in safe mode" but just rebooted whether I chose normal or safe.
GRR!!
So... patience please, for the whole ducting report thing.
Any luck with getting it to boot?
Once you've got that sorted, please post some pics of your setup!
I agree with Isaac though, you shouldn't need the front fan even if only one exhaust fan is pulling air through the bottom half of the case. Make sure the HDD is close to the intake and monitor temps. Only put the fan in if you can't keep the HDD temp down.
Once you've got that sorted, please post some pics of your setup!
I agree with Isaac though, you shouldn't need the front fan even if only one exhaust fan is pulling air through the bottom half of the case. Make sure the HDD is close to the intake and monitor temps. Only put the fan in if you can't keep the HDD temp down.
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Nopepangit wrote:Any luck with getting it to boot?
Once you've got that sorted, please post some pics of your setup!
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