I built a computer with the following specs,
CPU................ Intel P4 HT 3.4
Motherboard... Intel Extreme D955XBK
Power Supply...Antec 430w
Memory...........1gb Crucial DDR2 533mhz
Case...............Clear case
Under ordinary use it's like driving along a highway with the windows down (slight exaggeration). Under heavy use, it gets really annoying. The case still has the stock fans, looke really neat but too loud for me.
Anyway, what would be the best, easiest way to partially silence this rig. Ive heard that having a fan right out front like that doesn't help any. I wouldn't mind losing the LED fans as long as it quiets it down. I don't really know where to start. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. (did I chose the worst case possible?)
Also, whats all this Ive heard about clear cases needing a coating or wireless devices will "act up". Myth?
Built pc, too LOUD!
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Michael Sandstrom
- Posts: 606
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- Location: Albany, GA USA
I'd agree it would be much easier to start with a quiet case like the solo, as suggested above. If that's not possible, try and idientify the source of the noise in your case. I'd guess the cpu cooler (particularly if stock), and the chassis fans, as they're not that big.
For CPU cooler, check out the recommended ones.
For system fans, it looks like the fans are 80 or 92mm at best, and the smaller the fan, the faster it needs to spin to move the same amount of air. You can get 80/92 -> 120mm converter bracket thingies, that might be an idea if you want to stick with that case. Alternatively, you may want to undervolt the fans you have. Also, you may be able to do away with one system fan, depending on the temps in your system. A front fan is normally more easily heard, as has a more direct path to your ears depending on the chassis's position relative to yours. I have a front fan that I cannot hear as my system is to my right.
Regarding interference with wireless, there is a basic truth to this. Your computer emits electromagnetic waves, that may interfere with other stuff. A metal cage (even one with holes etc) will act as a farraday cage and stop the radiation. A plastic one probably doesn't. I doubt whether this really matters - at work in our lab we have all systems on test benches, ie no shielding at all, yet we have wireless that works fine, and my mobile does too.
For CPU cooler, check out the recommended ones.
For system fans, it looks like the fans are 80 or 92mm at best, and the smaller the fan, the faster it needs to spin to move the same amount of air. You can get 80/92 -> 120mm converter bracket thingies, that might be an idea if you want to stick with that case. Alternatively, you may want to undervolt the fans you have. Also, you may be able to do away with one system fan, depending on the temps in your system. A front fan is normally more easily heard, as has a more direct path to your ears depending on the chassis's position relative to yours. I have a front fan that I cannot hear as my system is to my right.
Regarding interference with wireless, there is a basic truth to this. Your computer emits electromagnetic waves, that may interfere with other stuff. A metal cage (even one with holes etc) will act as a farraday cage and stop the radiation. A plastic one probably doesn't. I doubt whether this really matters - at work in our lab we have all systems on test benches, ie no shielding at all, yet we have wireless that works fine, and my mobile does too.
Gee, thanks,
I'm guessing that the case fans are the major cause.
The cpu cooler, http://www.nextag.com/Power-Up-PowerUp- ... 8A539A6FD9
Not the exact model but looks the same.
So, should I remove the front fan and replace the other two fans with the recommended Nexus Real Silent Case Fan SP802512L-03? 92mm wouldn't fit would it? Are adapters worth it? Seems to me that they would create more pressure and the fans would have to work harder. Any thoughts?
Much thanks,
Sam
I'm guessing that the case fans are the major cause.
The cpu cooler, http://www.nextag.com/Power-Up-PowerUp- ... 8A539A6FD9
Not the exact model but looks the same.
So, should I remove the front fan and replace the other two fans with the recommended Nexus Real Silent Case Fan SP802512L-03? 92mm wouldn't fit would it? Are adapters worth it? Seems to me that they would create more pressure and the fans would have to work harder. Any thoughts?
Much thanks,
Sam
Short of replacing the case, replacing all 3 80mm fans along with the CPU cooler is probably your best bet. You didn't mention if you are using a dedicated graphics card. If so, these are often the noisiest offenders. Compared with the rest of your system, I suspect the PSU is way down your noise list.
An adaptor funnel might be worth it for the rear exhaust fan, but I wouldn't use one for any of the others, as they likely would be too cumbersome. Check the recommended lists here for CPU coolers and fans. You can't go wrong.
But, before you do any of this, download and install Speedfan. Quiet computing and thermal management are 2 sides of the same coin. You'll want to know your baseline temps before you change anything. That way you'll know if you're solving your problem, or making a bigger, if quieter problem.
An adaptor funnel might be worth it for the rear exhaust fan, but I wouldn't use one for any of the others, as they likely would be too cumbersome. Check the recommended lists here for CPU coolers and fans. You can't go wrong.
But, before you do any of this, download and install Speedfan. Quiet computing and thermal management are 2 sides of the same coin. You'll want to know your baseline temps before you change anything. That way you'll know if you're solving your problem, or making a bigger, if quieter problem.
Got speedfan, really neat...
Reads flaming-hot 62c for the cpu
Reads red up-arrow 45c for internal temp
I know these are high, but I've already gone through all the sweat of figuring out what was causing all the high temperatures. Turns out that P4 HT "prescott" cpu's have this high operating temp. No worries, been going steady ever since I got it.
Yes, Ive got dedicated graphics. ATI X1300 pro 256mb to be exact. Not great, but does what I want.
Anyway, If I replaced the side and rear fans with 80mm and 120mm (plus adapter), respectively, would that make it possible to remove the front fan entirely?
Thanks
Reads flaming-hot 62c for the cpu
Reads red up-arrow 45c for internal temp
I know these are high, but I've already gone through all the sweat of figuring out what was causing all the high temperatures. Turns out that P4 HT "prescott" cpu's have this high operating temp. No worries, been going steady ever since I got it.
Yes, Ive got dedicated graphics. ATI X1300 pro 256mb to be exact. Not great, but does what I want.
Anyway, If I replaced the side and rear fans with 80mm and 120mm (plus adapter), respectively, would that make it possible to remove the front fan entirely?
Thanks
The cheapest way to quiet a loud computer is just to feed all of your fans 5 volts. See this link:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article6-page1.html
An easy thing to try is to feed 5V to all of your fans and then check your temperatures.
The most important thing for you to do is to identify your loudest component(s). Stick a pencil in a (nonmoving) fan and then turn your computer on, this will tell you how loud your computer is without that fan. Do this for each fan and you'll find out which one has the most impact on your noise. Then replace it with a slower, quieter fan (or undervolt the fan). But watch out for temps!
Unfortunately as others have pointed out, your combination of case and cpu is not promising for a quiet computer. Computers with larger slower moving fans can keep components cooler at less noise than ones with smaller fans (as they move more air per area). You will reach a point where you won't be able to go quieter without overheating, which is where a better case comes in. If you're going to be replacing fans, you might as well get a case that comes with some quiet fans that can cool well. Antec has a wide assortment of cases that can do this. Check the recommended section of SPCR.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article6-page1.html
An easy thing to try is to feed 5V to all of your fans and then check your temperatures.
The most important thing for you to do is to identify your loudest component(s). Stick a pencil in a (nonmoving) fan and then turn your computer on, this will tell you how loud your computer is without that fan. Do this for each fan and you'll find out which one has the most impact on your noise. Then replace it with a slower, quieter fan (or undervolt the fan). But watch out for temps!
Unfortunately as others have pointed out, your combination of case and cpu is not promising for a quiet computer. Computers with larger slower moving fans can keep components cooler at less noise than ones with smaller fans (as they move more air per area). You will reach a point where you won't be able to go quieter without overheating, which is where a better case comes in. If you're going to be replacing fans, you might as well get a case that comes with some quiet fans that can cool well. Antec has a wide assortment of cases that can do this. Check the recommended section of SPCR.
One question.
Why is it that my case is bad? If it's because of the front fan, then I'll just remove it and get a bigger fan somewhere else.
I don't really see the advantage of replacing the whole case instead of just the fans. What would the difference be, other than coming (maybe) with pre-installed fans?
Anyway, I will look at your article, undervolting might help.
You guys all say that I need a "quiet" case. What makes it quiet? The fact that it may come with quiet fans? The material? the design?
Thanks,
Sam
Why is it that my case is bad? If it's because of the front fan, then I'll just remove it and get a bigger fan somewhere else.
I don't really see the advantage of replacing the whole case instead of just the fans. What would the difference be, other than coming (maybe) with pre-installed fans?
Anyway, I will look at your article, undervolting might help.
You guys all say that I need a "quiet" case. What makes it quiet? The fact that it may come with quiet fans? The material? the design?
Thanks,
Sam
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Sizzle
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The case is not a quiet case. Even if you replace the fans, you can push more air at less noise with a larger sized fan (preferrebly 120mm), you case only takes 80mm fans. I would say the plastic is not that good at damping noise in the case.LinuxSam wrote:One question.
Why is it that my case is bad? If it's because of the front fan, then I'll just remove it and get a bigger fan somewhere else.
I don't really see the advantage of replacing the whole case instead of just the fans. What would the difference be, other than coming (maybe) with pre-installed fans?
Anyway, I will look at your article, undervolting might help.
You guys all say that I need a "quiet" case. What makes it quiet? The fact that it may come with quiet fans? The material? the design?
Thanks,
Sam
Now, if you really wanted to keep it, I would replace the 80mm fans with 80mm Nexus or 80mm GloblaWins. Then I would get a Scythe Ninja or a Thermalright Ultra-120 cpu cooler with a Nexus 120mm fan to go along with it.
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FlorisNielssen
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The material and design mostly.
Your case is primarily built for the beauty (allthough you wouldn't make me happy with it) of an open plexi-glass case. Personally I don't know much resonance is created with plexi-glass. But if you have heavier case-walls and doors, it won't resonate as much with the fans and the hard disks.
Furthermore, the design. If you take a look at the P180 for example, this case a different design. The PSU is placed in the bottom, so no heat from the rest of the case comes with the PSU. No heat goes through the PSU, so the fan doesn't have to spin up. With your case, it has a standard design. Not bad, PSU on top for exhaust, exhaust fan beneath it. There's nothing wrong with that, but less optimal for silence.
Your hard disks probably are hard-mounted. In other words, screwed to the case. The most regular way of doing it. With some Antec cases the hard disks are mounted on silicone grommets to absorb some of the vibration. With the P150 it goes even further, the disk is hung from elastics to totally prevent vibrations to go to the case.
The fans aren't that important for a silent case, as they can be replaced, but if there allready are proper fans installed, that of course is great. With the Antec cases this is not the case. You get a Tricool fan with it. Certainly not your worst choice, but not the best either. It isn't silent on low speed.
With your case: replace the fans with others, as mentioned. Personally, I think the middle fan is quite useless. You could try and remove it to see what the effect is on your temps.
The GPU: you could remove the stock cooling and replace it with an Artic Accelero S1 (review), not expensive. Probably makes a difference too.
About the CPU: I don't have much experience with the Prescott's. It's probably too hot for an Arctic Alpine 7. But you could try the Freezer Pro. It's pretty cheap and a lot more quiet than the stock cooling.
Good luck with it.
Your case is primarily built for the beauty (allthough you wouldn't make me happy with it) of an open plexi-glass case. Personally I don't know much resonance is created with plexi-glass. But if you have heavier case-walls and doors, it won't resonate as much with the fans and the hard disks.
Furthermore, the design. If you take a look at the P180 for example, this case a different design. The PSU is placed in the bottom, so no heat from the rest of the case comes with the PSU. No heat goes through the PSU, so the fan doesn't have to spin up. With your case, it has a standard design. Not bad, PSU on top for exhaust, exhaust fan beneath it. There's nothing wrong with that, but less optimal for silence.
Your hard disks probably are hard-mounted. In other words, screwed to the case. The most regular way of doing it. With some Antec cases the hard disks are mounted on silicone grommets to absorb some of the vibration. With the P150 it goes even further, the disk is hung from elastics to totally prevent vibrations to go to the case.
The fans aren't that important for a silent case, as they can be replaced, but if there allready are proper fans installed, that of course is great. With the Antec cases this is not the case. You get a Tricool fan with it. Certainly not your worst choice, but not the best either. It isn't silent on low speed.
With your case: replace the fans with others, as mentioned. Personally, I think the middle fan is quite useless. You could try and remove it to see what the effect is on your temps.
The GPU: you could remove the stock cooling and replace it with an Artic Accelero S1 (review), not expensive. Probably makes a difference too.
About the CPU: I don't have much experience with the Prescott's. It's probably too hot for an Arctic Alpine 7. But you could try the Freezer Pro. It's pretty cheap and a lot more quiet than the stock cooling.
Good luck with it.
Great info,
The walls of the case are quite thick, comparing to the Dell Dimension 2350 sitting right next to it (it's much quieter). Something like 5mm, it is a very solid case.
Anyway, thanks for all your help, I wanted to make sure getting new fans would quiet things down, I didn't want to spend over $50. I probably have enough info to go on, but more ideas is always helpful.
One more question, would it be better to get rid of the middle or front fans? The front fan is more noticeable but might provide better airflow. Thoughts?
The walls of the case are quite thick, comparing to the Dell Dimension 2350 sitting right next to it (it's much quieter). Something like 5mm, it is a very solid case.
Anyway, thanks for all your help, I wanted to make sure getting new fans would quiet things down, I didn't want to spend over $50. I probably have enough info to go on, but more ideas is always helpful.
One more question, would it be better to get rid of the middle or front fans? The front fan is more noticeable but might provide better airflow. Thoughts?
Given that they're 80mm fans, I'd wouldn't get rid of any of them. Your best bet is to use them all and undervolt them. From there, consulting with Speedfan, you may or may not be able to eliminate one of them.
If you start with eliminating one, and it turns out you need to have it, you'll pay more for the extra shipment. Get all three, and with any luck, you'll have a spare (but I kinda doubt you will)
If you start with eliminating one, and it turns out you need to have it, you'll pay more for the extra shipment. Get all three, and with any luck, you'll have a spare (but I kinda doubt you will)
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NeilBlanchard
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Hello,
The case may have thick walls -- but they are just plastic, and are not nearly as strong as steel. Aluminum has the same problem.
Slow down the fans, or get slower running/quieter fans. If you can keep it cool enough with the slower/quieter fans -- and if it is quiet enough for you, then great. But, you may have to buy a good steel case with at least one 120mm fan, like the Antec Solo.
The case may have thick walls -- but they are just plastic, and are not nearly as strong as steel. Aluminum has the same problem.
Slow down the fans, or get slower running/quieter fans. If you can keep it cool enough with the slower/quieter fans -- and if it is quiet enough for you, then great. But, you may have to buy a good steel case with at least one 120mm fan, like the Antec Solo.
Ok, I stuck a pencil in the front fan and turned the pc on, somewhat quieter. The side fan makes even less of a difference. So I covered the front fan with a cd case and it was much quieter (not silent or anything, just better). So I'm guessing that a good portion of the noise is escaping through the front.
Are there any good sub $50 cases? Remember full ATX size. Much thanks.
(Torture is wrong? So was 9-11, not to get into an argument)
Are there any good sub $50 cases? Remember full ATX size. Much thanks.
(Torture is wrong? So was 9-11, not to get into an argument)
Sigh...LinuxSam wrote: (Torture is wrong? So was 9-11, not to get into an argument)
Back to school for you.
First you say something clearly provacatively stupid, and then you say you're not trying to start an argument. That's like me calling you an idiot, but softening the blow with a "no offense".
Totally off subject I know, but here.
If torture is wrong, think of the circumstances. If the US had gotten hold of someone who new about the planned attacks prior to 9-11, would they have been justified in using torture to get the information?
Its not "clearly stupid" to me.
Killing is wrong also, but that doesn't mean that we won't make war.
Thanks
If torture is wrong, think of the circumstances. If the US had gotten hold of someone who new about the planned attacks prior to 9-11, would they have been justified in using torture to get the information?
Its not "clearly stupid" to me.
Killing is wrong also, but that doesn't mean that we won't make war.
Thanks
Your whole justification is based on an "if". It's not just a longshot, it's a double banked, blindfolded longshot.LinuxSam wrote:Totally off subject I know, but here.
If torture is wrong, think of the circumstances. If the US had gotten hold of someone who new about the planned attacks prior to 9-11, would they have been justified in using torture to get the information?
Its not "clearly stupid" to me.
Killing is wrong also, but that doesn't mean that we won't make war.
Thanks
Leaving aside the fact that torture is an international crime and a gross violation of even the basest set of human rights, it does not usually generate accurate or usable information. The torture victim will eventually say anything - usually whatever he thinks you want to hear - to make it stop.
Torture also has the political consequence of uniting your enemies and rallying them to increased hostility. Not a great tactical move, in my book.
Finally, when a country engages in torture, it sets that behavior as an acceptable practice for either side to employ. When you defend the US government's use of torture, you also defend it's use against US citizens and military personnel. You can't have it both ways.
HI, again,
I am in the need of a quiet 92mm fan. I am pretty sure that the case I got (Antec Solo) only comes with the one 120mm fan, and I need another one to use as an intake. I looked at the SPCR 92mm fan roundup thingy but could not find anyplace that sells them. Any help would, uh, help.
Thanks
I am in the need of a quiet 92mm fan. I am pretty sure that the case I got (Antec Solo) only comes with the one 120mm fan, and I need another one to use as an intake. I looked at the SPCR 92mm fan roundup thingy but could not find anyplace that sells them. Any help would, uh, help.
Thanks
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NeilBlanchard
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Hello,
You probably do not need any fans in the front, especially if you have a single HD. The stock Antec 3-speed fan set to low is passably quiet, and it still moves a lot of air -- it is twice as much as a 92mm fan, and significantly more than an 80mm fan. Depending on your other components, you may want to get a quieter exhaust fan, rather than stick any fans in front.
Also the Solo, with either the silicon grommets or especially with the suspension straps, will quiet the HD to a large extent. If your case comes with rubber "O-ring" type suspension, then I think you can request the newer design (which are stretchy fabric bands) for free, since the original bands can break in a fairly short time.
As to whether terrorism justifies torture, I'll point you to what George Washington said about treatment of our enemies. Never mind that torture never works like it does on TV -- you don't get reliable information. AND, you hand our enemies the justification they need to torture our service people. Torture is counter-productive, and it corrupts all of us.
You probably do not need any fans in the front, especially if you have a single HD. The stock Antec 3-speed fan set to low is passably quiet, and it still moves a lot of air -- it is twice as much as a 92mm fan, and significantly more than an 80mm fan. Depending on your other components, you may want to get a quieter exhaust fan, rather than stick any fans in front.
Also the Solo, with either the silicon grommets or especially with the suspension straps, will quiet the HD to a large extent. If your case comes with rubber "O-ring" type suspension, then I think you can request the newer design (which are stretchy fabric bands) for free, since the original bands can break in a fairly short time.
As to whether terrorism justifies torture, I'll point you to what George Washington said about treatment of our enemies. Never mind that torture never works like it does on TV -- you don't get reliable information. AND, you hand our enemies the justification they need to torture our service people. Torture is counter-productive, and it corrupts all of us.
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Michael Sandstrom
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- Location: Albany, GA USA
Hello LinuxSam,
I am glad you sprang for the Solo. As you come to appreciate the great cool and quiet functionality, the case's beauty will become apparent.
Some people have complained about the Solo's bright power light. Others have complained about the flimsy power and reset buttons. The power light can be dimmed by darkening with a Sharpie. Be gentle with the power and reset buttons.
I am glad you sprang for the Solo. As you come to appreciate the great cool and quiet functionality, the case's beauty will become apparent.
Some people have complained about the Solo's bright power light. Others have complained about the flimsy power and reset buttons. The power light can be dimmed by darkening with a Sharpie. Be gentle with the power and reset buttons.
Nice thing about metal cases is that is easier I think to tinker with them, although it didn't apply in your case. Like I have a cheap ATX tower from AOpen from 2000 with just a replacement PSU that moves very little air, and a front intake fan, which is enough for me (Sempron 2600+ underclocked to 1460 Mhz), and usually I don't even have the front intake fan on, and when I'm not doing anything heavy my cpu doesn't rise above 45 deg celcius (19 deg ambient), and I haven't modified it for frequency scaling yet, under load it reaches 59 deg. But if I'd need another exhaust fan, I could just easily cut out a hole in the backpanel for a 80mm or 92mm fan, but I don't see you doing that with a plastic case, really.
-----------
About torturing... another point is the legalizing of such practices does not stand on its own. It is accompanied by increased government power, that is, the power balance between the people and the state changes in the direction of the state. The American government also has a history of manipulating the masses by inventing or producing threats that will cause the population to support its policies. That means it will put extra oil on the fire so that it will be able to take tougher measures. But by doing so, it elevates the level of fear present in the people, and the people become ever more afraid and isolate themselves more from one another, which undermines the resilience and cohesiveness of the communities, which makes them more willing victims of whatever is happening and also more willing supporters of more draconian measures that are meant to provide more safety, but actually undermine the health of the community itself. At a certain point, you run the risk of digressing into a fascist state, that is a state in which the government uses its power to control every relevant aspect of how people behave. Morality is legalized. Protection of privacy disappears. The right to demonstrate disappears. Dissidents are held captive and interrogated without being told what the charges are. At a certain point, the government can do whatever it wants without being held accountable for it. I believe this is already the case in the USA.
To give you just a bit of background, if my sources are correct: In WW1 the USA intentionally sent a passenger ship into German-controlled territory where it was torpedoed, thus initiating the participation of the USA in that war. In WW2 the USA took lots of hostile measures against Japan (in financial and economic terms mostly) which taunted the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. The USA government had been notified weeks before about the possibility of an imminent attack by the Australian intelligence, but it chose to ignore it. Thus was America drawn into the war. In the Vietnam war, the USA government made up a maritime incident in the waters south of Vietnam, which it used as a launching pad for the war. In various military operations in middle and south America, the USA government completely invented threats and spammed the American public with misinformation about the nature of these countries' political orientation, leadership, intentions and policies, to turn them into threats against America, because it was believed that the public would not 'see' by themselves that the things the government wanted to do, would be in the interest of America, and thus had to be 'guided' into accepting these operations by way of mass manipulation.
So everything this government tells you may be true and it may be a complete lie, you will never know, unless you consult other sources. In any case, you can be sure that what it is telling you, is designed perfectly to raise maximum support for its policies, and it thinks it knows better what course America should fare than the people do. You're not *exactly* living in a nice and clean democracy. I don't think America's leaders believe in democracy, really, any more than Putin does.
So when you hear about terrorist threats, please be advised that the government has its own agenda it pursues and it may very well be more in the interest of the corporate (financial) world than the public at large, and it will do everything in its power to achieve these goals. But what the elite percieves as America's best interest may not be what you percieve as America's best interest. So keep your eyes open and don't just swallow whatever they give you like a good hooker.
-----------
About torturing... another point is the legalizing of such practices does not stand on its own. It is accompanied by increased government power, that is, the power balance between the people and the state changes in the direction of the state. The American government also has a history of manipulating the masses by inventing or producing threats that will cause the population to support its policies. That means it will put extra oil on the fire so that it will be able to take tougher measures. But by doing so, it elevates the level of fear present in the people, and the people become ever more afraid and isolate themselves more from one another, which undermines the resilience and cohesiveness of the communities, which makes them more willing victims of whatever is happening and also more willing supporters of more draconian measures that are meant to provide more safety, but actually undermine the health of the community itself. At a certain point, you run the risk of digressing into a fascist state, that is a state in which the government uses its power to control every relevant aspect of how people behave. Morality is legalized. Protection of privacy disappears. The right to demonstrate disappears. Dissidents are held captive and interrogated without being told what the charges are. At a certain point, the government can do whatever it wants without being held accountable for it. I believe this is already the case in the USA.
To give you just a bit of background, if my sources are correct: In WW1 the USA intentionally sent a passenger ship into German-controlled territory where it was torpedoed, thus initiating the participation of the USA in that war. In WW2 the USA took lots of hostile measures against Japan (in financial and economic terms mostly) which taunted the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. The USA government had been notified weeks before about the possibility of an imminent attack by the Australian intelligence, but it chose to ignore it. Thus was America drawn into the war. In the Vietnam war, the USA government made up a maritime incident in the waters south of Vietnam, which it used as a launching pad for the war. In various military operations in middle and south America, the USA government completely invented threats and spammed the American public with misinformation about the nature of these countries' political orientation, leadership, intentions and policies, to turn them into threats against America, because it was believed that the public would not 'see' by themselves that the things the government wanted to do, would be in the interest of America, and thus had to be 'guided' into accepting these operations by way of mass manipulation.
So everything this government tells you may be true and it may be a complete lie, you will never know, unless you consult other sources. In any case, you can be sure that what it is telling you, is designed perfectly to raise maximum support for its policies, and it thinks it knows better what course America should fare than the people do. You're not *exactly* living in a nice and clean democracy. I don't think America's leaders believe in democracy, really, any more than Putin does.
So when you hear about terrorist threats, please be advised that the government has its own agenda it pursues and it may very well be more in the interest of the corporate (financial) world than the public at large, and it will do everything in its power to achieve these goals. But what the elite percieves as America's best interest may not be what you percieve as America's best interest. So keep your eyes open and don't just swallow whatever they give you like a good hooker.