Help me build a Folding Farm

[haysdb]

Motherboards

I have all but committed to a VIA KM400 board for it's 333MHz FSB and DDR333 support. Why limit myself to a T-bred 2400+ as the fastest CPU I will ever use?

My two leading candidates are the BIOSTAR M7VIZ and the Shuttle MK40N. The BIOSTAR is said to not have much in the way of overclocking features, and that MAY be something I want to do, but otherwise it's a good looking board. If I had to decide right now at this moment, it would probably be the Shuttle MK40VN. The only thing I don't like about that board is the location of the ATX power connector, which is smack in the middle of the board. It just seems like an awkward location.

CPU
I am leaning toward a 2500+ Barton, for the 333MHz FSB and the potential for overclocking.

CPU Heatsink
Arctic Cooling Super Silent Pro. Cheap and pretty good. Reviewed and Recommended by SPCR.

Power Supply
I am leaning toward one of the Seasonic models, perhaps the Super Silencer 400, but maybe a Super Tornado 300. Since I will be running 2 motherboards, probably the SS400. Both reviewed and Recommended by SPCR. Does anyone see a pattern developing here?

Hard Drive
Definitely a Samsung drive, but I haven't decided which one. I don't "need" the extra space, but it's hard to pass up an extra 40GB for $30, which is the difference in price between the 80GB (2MB cache) and 120GB (8MB cache) model and between the 120 and 160GB (8MB cache) models. Disk space always seems to get used around my house. Um, need I mention that the Samsung drives are very quiet, and well regarded by SPCR members? I myself have four Samsung drives.

Memory
256MB of DDR333, but I haven't picked a brand. Corsair, Crucial, Kingston, or Buffalo. Something that will run stable with 2-2-2 timings.


What am I missing, other than Ethernet cables, an 8-port switch, and a surge suppressor?

Will I need a keyboard and monitor on the server machine or can I do what I need to do via terminal emulation from my desktop XP machine? I have a monitor and keyboard I can use for configuring things, but once it gets going, will I need a monitor and keyboard to maintain the systems?

I have to admit, reading the Linux configuration steps puts me to sleep. In fact. That's definitely going to be "the hard part". Buying and assembling the hardware is easy.

David

[CharlieChan]

On a different topic, is there any particular reason to use a different motherboard for the server? I mean, would the server have any particular requirements different from the clients in terms of the motherboard? Using the same motherboard would have the advantage of interchangeability with the clients, in case the server motherboard fails, but that's probably not a compelling enough reason. OTH, unless there is some compelling reason for them to be DIFFERENT, it'd be easier just to use the same motherboard across all the Linux machines. I'm asking a question there, although it wasn't exactly phrased like one. Is the above assessment essentially correct? In reality, it seems to be the server is basically just a client which also performs server duties. I can't imagine the load on the server being anything at all. Unless it grows into something I do not today imagine.

David

I would not worry about the server at the moment. The reason I mention it earlier is some people, like myself, build a farm from bits lying around. My farm server is a P3 1.G, I started with a P3 450 so your kit is already much faster. There is no reason to use dual processor, in your case it would be cheaper. Bear in mind whatever you use now would be fast but in 6 months you may wanted to change things around. Building a rack now sounds nice and neat but when it comes to upgrading ....

[haysdb]

...why use Redhat? Redhat has pretty much gone corporate with the Enterprise product. You may mean Fedora Linux, in which case I apologize for misinterpreting you. I've seen LTSP work with Suse Linux 9.0 Pro so it should be okay to use with newer distros.

Fedora Linux is not listed as one of the distros support by LTSP.

Distros supported:

• RedHat
• Mandrake
• SuSE
• Debian
• Caldera
• Conectiva

David

[CharlieChan]

I have to admit, reading the Linux configuration steps puts me to sleep. In fact. That's definitely going to be "the hard part". Buying and assembling the hardware is easy.

Before putting together a multi node farm I would advice trying with just one node, a server and a client. It is not that difficult if you follow the instructions on a earlier link. The pre-compiled ltsp kernel will only support limited hardware, make sure you kit is supported. I record Zhentar had problems getting his build in network card to work.

[haysdb]

I would not worry about the server at the moment. The reason I mention it earlier is some people, like myself, build a farm from bits lying around. My farm server is a P3 1.G, I started with a P3 450 so your kit is already much faster. There is no reason to use dual processor, in your case it would be cheaper. Bear in mind whatever you use now would be fast but in 6 months you may wanted to change things around. Building a rack now sounds nice and neat but when it comes to upgrading ....

Don't worry about the server at the moment? That seems like the first thing I need to worry about. Purhaps you mean I should convert my Shuttle XPC into the server. That way the server would be a stand-alone machine, with it's own power supply and hard drive. It's an Athlon 2000+, with a free slot if I need to add a second NIC, so it's got everything it needs. The hard drive is only 14GB, but that'll be way more than enough for this application. The downside is it's noisy as hell.

Why would a rack be a problem to upgrade? I am talking about a $30 storage rack from Lowes or Home Depot, like you'd stick in your basement and fill with boxes and junk. Perhaps something more elegant will come to mind, but that seems adequate to get started. Actually, I may go in search of a small and inexpensive M-ATX case, if for no other reason than to keep the dust off, and to keep my cats from sticking their paws in the CPU fans. Alternatively I could enclose the rack, at least partially.

David

[CharlieChan]

Don't worry about the server at the moment? That seems like the first thing I need to worry about. Purhaps you mean I should convert my Shuttle XPC into the server. That way the server would be a stand-alone machine, with it's own power supply and hard drive. It's an Athlon 2000+, with a free slot if I need to add a second NIC, so it's got everything it needs. The hard drive is only 14GB, but that'll be way more than enough for this application. The downside is it's noisy as hell.
David

The XPC is fine as a server, noise should not be a problem if your kit is going in the basement - my is in the garage where the noise from the washing machine drowns the farm . Now you have a serve, build a client and set it up.

[haysdb]

Before putting together a multi node farm I would advice trying with just one node, a server and a client.

That has always been the plan, as I will never tire of repeating.

It is not that difficult if you follow the instructions on a earlier link. The pre-compiled ltsp kernel will only support limited hardware, make sure you kit is supported.

What is a "kit"? I can figure out what it must mean from context, it's just that the term is new to me. 'Boxen' is another one.

Is there a list of supported hardware? I am looking at LTSP.org but, in the best tradition of Unix and Linux, if you don't already know what LTSP *IS*, you won't find out from their site. Linux people believe everyone should learn "the hard way," just like they did. They figure if you aren't clever enough to find the answer, you shouldn't be using *nix. It's against custom to make anything easy. WHAT THE HELL *IS* LTSP? Other than being "all about running thin client computers in a GNU/Linux environment," I mean The fact that this question is not in the FAQ is particularly disturbing. They tell you HOW to use it, but not why you would WANT to. I'm sorry, I'm ranting.

David

[CharlieChan]

What is a "kit"? I can figure out what it must mean from context, it's just that the term is new to me. 'Boxen' is another one.

Just my way of saying your computer system, 3 letters is quicker to type .

Is there a list of supported hardware? I am looking at LTSP.org but, in the best tradition of Unix and Linux, if you don't already know what LTSP *IS*, you won't find out from their site. Linux people believe everyone should learn "the hard way," just like they did. They figure if you aren't clever enough to find the answer, you shouldn't be using *nix. It's against custom to make anything easy. WHAT THE HELL *IS* LTSP? Other than being "all about running thin client computers in a GNU/Linux environment," I mean The fact that this question is not in the FAQ is particularly disturbing. They tell you HOW to use it, but not why you would WANT to. I'm sorry, I'm ranting.

You have to remember the LTSP was not design with folding as its goal. It was adapted to folding by some guy so going to learn all you can from LTSP homepage may not be the place to start. As a example, you will never boot into X, never config a printer, always run as root .... A better place to start is here.

The only piece of hardware on the client you need to worry about is the NIC. In the worst case you may need to boot from a floppy.

[haysdb]

You have to remember the LTSP was not design with folding as its goal. It was adapted to folding by some guy so going to learn all you can from LTSP homepage may not be the place to start.

Man, you got THAT right. That is NOT a place for the weak of heart.

The only piece of hardware on the client you need to worry about is the NIC. In the worst case you may need to boot from a floppy.

ACK!

Seriously, I would rather be tarred and feathered That would be humiliating.

David

[haysdb]

What is a "kit"? I can figure out what it must mean from context, it's just that the term is new to me. 'Boxen' is another one.

Just my way of saying your computer system, 3 letters is quicker to type

I worked with a guy from the UK for a few months, some years ago, and I still occasionally use the words/phrases "boot" (trunk), "pissing down" (raining), etc. Kit seems like a good word to add to my vocabulary. However, I steadfastly REFUSE to use the word "boxen".

David


You will be assimilated

[haysdb]

OK, just as soon as I stop PROCRASTINATING (finish this post), I am going to power down the Shuttle XPC that's Folding away in the guest bedroom (where no one can hear it), and install RedHat 9.0 in "server" configuration. Wish me luck, because I am going to need it.

RedHat 9.0 - Why? Because I have the disks and because I still have a month or two left on a "subscription". Something else might be "better", but RedHat is as well supported as any Linux distribution, so it's a "safe" choice.

Shuttle XPC - Why? Because it's what I have available to me at the moment.

BONZAI!!!

David

[ColdFlame]

Linux? Supported? You must be kidding!!! You are on your own dude j/k

I personally like Linux Mandrake. Pretty much Redhat with goodies. Also stable enough.

[Zyzzyx]

Hmm... I should pull my Pentium Pro 200 dually outta the hall closet. That was going to be my Linux system to mess around with. Its been a few months, but I think all I've left to do is put an undervolted L1A in the power supply and call it good. Already have a 92mm undervolted Panaflo as a case fan ducted over the CPUs Dell oem style. It can't run Linux much slower than the K6/2-200 I had it on before. And it is getting chilly in my bedroom.

[haysdb]

Well guys, I have had a miserable night. I'm ready to put the Shuttle in the street and run over it with my truck. That's not completely fair, as I don't know which problems are with the NForce chipset, which are Linux issues, and which are Samsung issues. All I know is, I was completely unsuccessful in doing a graphical install of RedHat 9, so I did the text install. I then tried to get the onboard video to work with my monitor and I just could not get it to work, period. Where I am now is that the machine hangs during the "firstboot" step, so I'm absolutely dead in the water. This is pretty discouraging, especially considering I wiped out my XP install because my 30 days were up and I didn't want to waste an XP license on a machine I was just going to convert to Linux anyway. But unless and until I can get this thing working, I'm stuck with a brick.

What sounds really good right now is giving up. On getting Linux installed on this PC that is. But I won't. I will keep banging my head against the wall until the damn wall falls down, or it kills me.

David

[WarpedPlatter]

All I know is, I was completely unsuccessful in doing a graphical install of RedHat 9, so I did the text install. I then tried to get the onboard video to work with my monitor and I just could not get it to work, period. Where I am now is that the machine hangs during the "firstboot" step, so I'm absolutely dead in the water.

If there's space for a PCI card, disable the onboard video and pick up a cheap old video card. If you get something common like an ATI Rage, you should have no problems. If you call a couple of independent computer stores in your area I'm sure you'll find one. They might even give it to you if you tell them what you need it for. If not, I wouldn't pay more than $5 for it. If you don't have any luck finding one, I'll check my parts box at home.

WP

[haysdb]

There isn't any good reason for it not to work. I might give one of the other distros a try. I'm certainly not out anything at this point since it looks like I might have to reinstall or at least try to "repair" the installation before I can continue. I might try building the driver from the sources rather than trying to install the binary. I want to know how to do that, I just hadn't planned on it being right now.

Once I get the video working, I will get to fight with the onboard NIC, which is notorious for not working.

David

[mas92264]

David,

What chipset does your Shuttle have?

m

[Buddabing]

"Boxen" was originally simply a plural of "Box", similar to the plural of an old VAX Box was two "VAXen". Now people use boxen as singular, which is wrong, IMO.

I created a two-node folding farm for about $215. I used two cheap ECS K7S5A version 3 motherboards, Athlon XP1800+ motherboards, whatever RAM I had laying around (the board takes SDR and DDR RAM), and inexpensive power supplies I got from Dealsonic. I got a power button from Fry's for a couple bucks. I also used ancient 1 and 2 megabyte video cards, however I do recommend, like the others, using a motherboard with built-in video, even though the K7S5A is cheaper.

You don't need a 10/100 switch, a simple 10 Mbit hub will do. Also, your server doesn't need to be the fastest machine, it can be the slowest. A 400 MHz machine is plenty.

It may not be worth the savings to run two nodes off one power supply, but if you do, consider using T-taps to splice the cables together instead of soldering.

Installing the software can be a pain. Here's a few tips.
1) Make sure the ISO images you download are good! This is important!
2) Partition your Linux server's hard disk with a 2 gig DOS partition, and copy the LTSP packages and your ISO images onto that. I used Red Hat 9. This way, you don't have to have a CD-ROM on your server, just a floppy for the installation. Then you can install Linux from the hard disk.
3) Don't do a graphical install. Do text only. Also, don't have a mouse plugged in during the installation. Use the "install all packages" option. And, if you ever change anything about your hardware, reinstall. You can't move the hard disk from computer to computer like you can with Windows.
4) Check and see if your BIOS is up to date. You may need to flash.

There are plenty of good guides to building farms out there, you can go to HardOCP's distributed computing pages and find posts from Brian Turmelle, or feel free to email me at buddabing at houston dot rr dot com and I'll send you any information I have on farming.


My wife made me "transplant" the farm out of the study, so I had to "harvest" it. One node is going into a MAME box, and the other is going into my son's computer as an upgrade.

[Mutt_n_head]

Ok, Buddabing.... some questions

What is a "good" ISO image? I assume it's one that can make a disk. Are you referring to MD5 checksums or what? How do you check if an ISO image is good?

Assuming he has "good" ISOs and makes a good CD, I'm having a hard time trying to figure why the Linux server would need a 2 Gig DOS partition to have ISO images and LTSP packages on. Are you talking a first time install? If so, how would you get these onto a partition to begin with? It seems to me you'd have to install an OS to put files on any partition. Needs more details.

Ok, I can understand if you don't want to do graphical install, text is fine as well, but why does he have to unplug his mouse? It's true he doesn't need one if he's just making a server install but you don't say why he has to unplug it.... does he ever plug it back in in the future? That's just weird advice. Also, if you change hardware that doesn't automatically mean you have to reinstall the OS. And when you say you can't more the hard drive around from machine to machine like windows you are really straining credibility. I've moved FreeBSD AND Linux drives from machine to machine without any problems. In fact if you try to pull the crap with Windows it's a hell of a lot more problematic. I've moved hard drives from computer to computer with windows and if it did work it was always a matter of time until something went wrong b/c of the transfer.

The BIOS part is at least something that could be good advice. Sometimes flashing BIOS makes the situation worse sometimes it's better. I generally only change the BIOS when I have no other choice or if it specifically addresses a problem I am having.

Sorry to everyone here if I am being overly critical but this is essentially not good advice in my opinion and I wanted to say something so that haysdb doesn't get negative to the idea of doing diskless folding clients.

I've seen it work... it's not that hard really. You just have to get the right hardware.

[Buddabing]

Ok, Buddabing.... some questions

What is a "good" ISO image? I assume it's one that can make a disk. Are you referring to MD5 checksums or what? How do you check if an ISO image is good?

You are correct, a "good" iso images is one that matches the MD5 checksum.

Assuming he has "good" ISOs and makes a good CD, I'm having a hard time trying to figure why the Linux server would need a 2 Gig DOS partition to have ISO images and LTSP packages on. Are you talking a first time install? If so, how would you get these onto a partition to begin with? It seems to me you'd have to install an OS to put files on any partition. Needs more details.

Each ISO image is about 600 meg, times 3 is roughly 1.8 gig. Add the LTSP packages and other useful files, that'll use up most of the 2 gig. One way of getting the 2 gig partition is just to fdisk the disk from a dos boot disk. Another way is to install the hard drive temporarily into another computer, format the disk with two partitons, (1 2-gig DOS partition and one everything else) Then copy the ISO images, etc.

Ok, I can understand if you don't want to do graphical install, text is fine as well, but why does he have to unplug his mouse? It's true he doesn't need one if he's just making a server install but you don't say why he has to unplug it.... does he ever plug it back in in the future? That's just weird advice.

From my (limited) personal experience, when the mouse was plugged in at installation time, and later removed, Linux hung.

Also, if you change hardware that doesn't automatically mean you have to reinstall the OS.

Every time I tried it, Linux crashed.

And when you say you can't more the hard drive around from machine to machine like windows you are really straining credibility. I've moved FreeBSD AND Linux drives from machine to machine without any problems. In fact if you try to pull the crap with Windows it's a hell of a lot more problematic. I've moved hard drives from computer to computer with windows and if it did work it was always a matter of time until something went wrong b/c of the transfer.

Every time I tried it, Linux crashed.

The BIOS part is at least something that could be good advice. Sometimes flashing BIOS makes the situation worse sometimes it's better. I generally only change the BIOS when I have no other choice or if it specifically addresses a problem I am having.

Sorry to everyone here if I am being overly critical but this is essentially not good advice in my opinion and I wanted to say something so that haysdb doesn't get negative to the idea of doing diskless folding clients.

I've seen it work... it's not that hard really. You just have to get the right hardware.

Obviously, your mileage varied greatly. I am a Linux newbie and I was relating what worked for me, in my own experience with creating a folding farm. On the motherboards I have at my disposal, Linux was very picky about hardware. I couldn't get ISA NICs to work, plug and play or not. In my own experience, it's easier to reinstall the whole system with one easy batch file than it is to figure out the often arcane system Linux uses for device and task initialization. For someone with extensive knowledge of Linux, it's probably easier to do the farm some other way.

[haysdb]

David,

What chipset does your Shuttle have?

NForce2

Having slept on it, I realize that the problem is not what I assumed it was. The known issues with the NForce2 are with the onboard NIC and Audio, neither of which are supported "out of the box" by RedHat 9. However, there are binary rpm's downloadable from nVidia's web site for the major distributions, including RedHat 9. So, I knew this would be an issue and was fixated on that, but that driver has nothing to do with video, only with the NIC and Audio. My issue it with the standard, generic 'NV' driver. In a way, that's a worse problem.

I would bet money it has everything to do with one of two things:
1) I am using a little DVI "adapter" card, which probably isn't being recognized
2) I am using a DVI switcher, which may be causing some problems for the driver, although I don't know why it would.
So I am going to try connecting up a standard RGB cable direct between the XP and the monitor and see if I can get past the video problem.

David

[Mutt_n_head]

You know hays... that nForce2 stuff got me also. I was installing Suse 9.0 Professional and that NIC seemed to be recognized but just would not work. I got the rpms from nVidia's site and that didn't help at all. The only thing I could do, sadly, was to just use another PCI NIC for networking. Kind of sucks but if anyone has had better luck or knows the key to making it work I'd love to know.

Budda, I'm sorry you have a bad experience with Linux in the past. I can certainly understand where you are coming from with respect to Linux. But the farm thing can be done, I've seen it done first hand. There are speedbumps along the road but when it works... it works VERY well. You just turn the blades on and boom... they fold. It's nice.

Turmelle's web page is a good reference and it's what was used to setup the blade server I saw done.

[haysdb]

"Arcane" is a good word for describing Linux.

Random notes in reply to comments made by Buddabing and Mutt_n_head:

• I updated the bios before doing the install. That was definitely good advice. One of the wonderful additions is the ability to control the fan speeds. In the old BIOS you could set a threshold where the fan would go to full speed, but my experience was the fan was constantly "hunting" up and down and was seriously annoying. They now offer High, Medium, Low, and Ultra Low speeds. I will have to experiment to see whether I can slow the fans any at all with the machine running at 100% all the time, but it's still a nice feature to have. Anyway, there have been numerous BIOS updates, some of which fix some really NASTY issues, so updating to the latest one gave me some piece of mind.
• My server box has both CD and floppy drives. It's just easier, especially during set-up, when the network adapter doesn't work. Once it's set up I could pull those drives, but I won't.
• The mouse isn't needed during a text only installation, but it didn't give me any trouble.
• I don't "need" a 10/100 switch, but they cost mere peanuts now and when I looked, NewEgg didn't even OFFER any plain old 10MG hubs, I don't have one laying around, and I'm not going to fart around with an eBay auction just to save ten bucks. Your point is well taken though. The network bandwidth required will be practically nothing except when booting a machine, which hopefully won't happen very often. I would expect the clients to run for months at a time without even touching them.
• I will share a PSU between a pair of boards. It's just not my style to throw a bunch of cheap hardware at a problem, when fewer, more expensive components will do.
• I did not initially set up a DOS partition, but I think it's a good idea. Not for installing Linux, since CD's work just fine for that, but just because it might be handy, and might simplify some operations.

And finally, an amusing anecdote. At least I find it amusing. I knew Linux could read an MSDOS disk, and I needed a network driver from nVidia's web site, so I downloaded it to a floppy on one of my Windows machines, stuck it in the drive on the Linux machine, and drew a complete and total blank as to how in the hell I would access a floppy drive under Linux. I did know how at one time, and eventually it came back to me, but having to "mount" and "umount" a floppy is, well, it's QUEER, that's what it is. For one thing, "man mount" doesn't even MENTION umount. They refer to "unmounting" but when I did a "man unmount" I found nothing. Took me awhile to come up with "umount".

Another bazaar thing is that if the floppy isn't mounted, and you copy a file to that directory, the file doesn't go on the floppy, but just in that directory. I copied a file to what I though was the floppy, stuck it into the Windows machine, and...no file. Hmmmm, where's my file? Will, it was in /mnt/floppy, that's where.

David

[CharlieChan]

David:

Are you still having problems booting into redhat 9.0?
If so, here is the solution to boot into console instead of X.
1) At the GRUB boot prompt press e to allow you edit the boot parameter.
2) Select the line which starts with kernel .... and add the word 'single' before 'ro'.
3) The system should now boot into maintaince mode. Use vi to edit the file /etc/inittab.
4) Change the line id:5:initdefault to id:3:initdefault and reboot.

You should now boot into console instead of X.

vi hint: press insert to edit, press ESC then ':wq' to save file.

[CharlieChan]

Another bazaar thing is that if the floppy isn't mounted, and you copy a file to that directory, the file doesn't go on the floppy, but just in that directory. I copied a file to what I though was the floppy, stuck it into the Windows machine, and...no file. Hmmmm, where's my file? Will, it was in /mnt/floppy, that's where.

Put floppy in drive type 'mdir a:' .

To copy file from floppy type 'mcopy a:\[filename]' .

You get the idea .

[Pigpen]

I just recieved a Shuttle MN31N yersterday and this thing requires the P4 power connection.

I don't know if this is an isolated design or if this has become common for AMD boards & I just havent been paying attention. Anyhow I thought it was worth mentioning (assuming I am not the only one that has'nt seen this before). Just to help avoid any surprises in your build.

On another note, you mentioned a Barton 2500. The reviews at the egg are saying that the new batches are multiplier locked, just in case you are thinking of overclocking.

[mas92264]

David,

Had the same deal with my shuttle sn45g fan speed up/down when using the bios settings to control the fan. Was driving me nuts. Tried several 80mm fans - panaflo L, M, evercool (2600 rpm, I think) and and 1 or 2 others I had around. Stuck with a L1A for a week or 2, using Speedfan and it worked fine. At full blast, it would easily keep the cpu temps in the low 50s' - even with cpu burn or prime 95.

Then, got a panaflo MBX (aka M1A) and have been using it 24/7 for 6 weeks or so. At Speedfan 3% (about 1,650 rpm) it keeps everything cool. With ambient at 23C, I've got cpu temp of 50C while folding.

The only prob I've had with Speedfan is that from a stone cold boot, it doesn't want to control the speed of the fan as the rising temp of the cpu trips it up - the fan runs full blast. Just have to wait a few mins and close/open speedfan and it's fine.

[haysdb]

Charlie,

I may have to send you some flowers.

David

[haysdb]

I am now Folding in Linux on a Shuttle SN41G2 XPC.
I am using both the built-in video and built-in network controller.

My first problem was getting the video to work. I could boot to a text terminal window, but when X started, my screen went whacko. I finally got some help from someone at XFree86.

The next problem was installing the driver for the MAC. The installation instructions on vNidia's site are woeful. I searched and searched and finally finding some instructions I could understand.

I have a lot of work to do to get it set up as a Folding Server, but at least it's going to be DOING something while I am fussing around getting that to work.

Tomorrow I'd like to get it set up so I can monitor progress from my Windows machine, and then I'm not sure. I'm just happy to have it up and running.

David

[mormakil]

Congratulations for your Triumph over Linux