Stopping Murders in the USA ?

[klankymen]

guns are also designed to protect our society from enemies, both foreign and domestic. That's what the Second Amendment is all about.

Not doing a very good job on the domestic front, is it?

Please.... stop making good arguments, everytime you do, BlueFront ignores it, and continues spewing nonsense. Go with mediocre ones instead.

[Trip]

Regarding taking away guns, can't they be made from scratch fairly easily?

[Trip]

In sparsely populated areas, which includes much of the US, guns are undoubtedly useful for defense, especially in areas where illegal aliens roam in the South West.

---

If Putin was to announce he was disarming all of Russia, the West would cry out that he was seeking to remove the last few barriers to his power. We could all agree then maybe that Russians are better off with guns.

The issue then isn't legalisation in the abstract but legalisation applied to specific societies at specific times.

Well many of us who wish for gun rights in America don't much like guns, but we view the current US government as extremely dangerous. With McCain or Obama on the horizon, I'm terrified. I'm either going to move to the hills or out of the country.

Most of Europe has nowhere near the diversity and transience of the US. The US is a totally different society, and the same rules cannot be cut and pasted to work here. The same people who shoot each other now would find other ways to kill each other if guns were taken away.

However, you can't take away the guns; it's impossible. If the US went "gunless," gun traffickers would bring them in through our Southern border, along with the drugs and illegal aliens they bring now.

You can say it's stupid that people would continue to kill if the law abiding folks couldn't defend themselves, but they would.

---

What this amounts to is this:

Bluefront and I are scared of the US government, of criminals, and of other elements. The rest aren't for various reasons including that you don't live here. This is not a case of one side being stupid and the other not; this is a case of one side having a reason to want guns and the other not.

[LAThierry]

Bluefront and I are scared of the US government...

I won't pretend you're speaking for BlueFront here so I'm only addressing you.

What do you mean exactly by being scared of the government? I'm really curious how you will justify this fear or distrust of government without cueing the conspiracy theories or imagining black helicopters? No to mention, if I dare say, I don't want a person "imagining things" having access to guns because it sounds like a recipe for disaster, doesn't it?

[aristide1]

Bluefront and I are scared of the US government...

Hardly a reason to align oneself with political extremists that are pretty much the other side of the coin the terrorists are on.

We could all agree then maybe that Russians are better off with guns.

Not necessarily. It depends on the level of corruption. What the Russians were definitely better without was organized crime. Now they are strangling in it.

What do you mean exactly by being scared of the government??

Well the ironic thing is the way the Constitution has been handled the last 7 years should put more fear into gun owner's minds that anything a background check or anything else the NRA opposes. The government already considers all sharpshooters a potential national threat.

During the 2004 RNC protesters, Americans, were penned up like the Japanese after 12/7/1941. I was eating my breakfast one morning the Saturday after that happened and I watched an old man with a WWII veterens hat on, shaking his head, saying "They are taking away our civil rights."

But if you really want an unbiased opinion of the direction the US is going you need to read the PATRIOT act. A real American would be scared silly from of it says. But just like in 1776, there were people hear who sided with the government/British, no matter what wrongs were placed on the people. They were conservatives and hence, unwilling to change.

[Bluefront]

I'm sure I distrust all governments as much as Trip......and there are no "conspiracy theories" involved. History is filled with a multitude of examples of government gone wrong.

The Second Amendment gives the citizens of the USA some protection against tyranny, protection that citizens of other countries lack. And it gives our government more respect for the average citizen.....respect lacking elsewhere.

The Second Amendment is particularly disliked by the Liberals among us, people who want the federal government to be in total control of our lives. I object to such control, and the Second Amendment is some measure of guarantee that the USA will remain free from total government control. The Second Amendment is here to stay.....but being challenged daily it seems.

[LAThierry]

Bluefront and I are scared of ... criminals

I don't know about the crime where you live, Trip, but BlueFront said he lives in a town of about 50,000 where there has been one murder in 30 years. A little math here, assuming the population changed from 20k to 50k over 30 years, the one-year-odd of being murdered in BlueFront's town is 1 in 1,050,000. Anecdotally those odds are somewhere between being hit by lightning and being killed by it. For all intent and purpose that's a very safe neighborhood, homicide-wise.

For comparisons, here are some other odds of dying from the National Safety Council's 2004 figures :

1 in 6,535 Motor-Vehicle Accidents
1 in 49,139 Pedestrian
1 in 88,772 Accidental drowning
1 in 90,944 Exposure to smoke, fire and flames
1 in 266,476 Exposure to forces of nature
1 in 452,476 Accidental firearm discharge

That last one is interesting. It looks like owning a gun in your good neighborhood is riskier than not owning one because you (or someone in your household) is more likely to die from accidental discharge of your own weapon than by the gun of a murderer.

[aristide1]

[Please.... stop making good arguments, everytime you do, BlueFront ignores it, and continues spewing nonsense. Go with mediocre ones instead.

Funny, and yet, very sad, of the commentary one spews forth.

[nick705]

Well many of us who wish for gun rights in America don't much like guns, but we view the current US government as extremely dangerous. With McCain or Obama on the horizon, I'm terrified. I'm either going to move to the hills or out of the country.

I see you've edited your post - earlier you were claiming that Obama wanted to get rid of people like you, and that if he got elected you were going to get yourself a hunting rifle.

It would be laughable if it weren't tragic - in any case, if the US government actually wanted you dead, do you seriously think that holing up in them thar hills with your peashooter would do you the slightest good?

No disrespect, but you sound not just paranoid, but completely, barking mad, and make the case against widespread gun ownership far more convincingly than I ever could.

[Bluefront]

LAThierry......While my little community is free from serious crime, I need only drive down the road about three miles, cross the city limits, and I am in the second most dangerous place in the USA. Can you figure why I carry a weapon?

I stay out of the place as much as possible.....but most of the federal buildings are there, as well as doctor's offices, hospitals, and other places I need to visit on occasions.

People are murdered there almost daily.....you'd be really bored if I posted about them all. But they were all people affected by terrible crime......crime not being addressed in a manner likely to stop it. Reading some of the comments in this thread almost makes me think liberals fear law-abiding citizens trying to defend themselves, more so than they fear criminals.

[laserred]

It sounds like Nick must have some good stuff in his drinking water over across the pond...

Nick, I don't know how many other fellow members are former honorably discharged US military like myself, but you can bet your ass that not only do I love this country, I distrust the government. There are too many private interests with their hands and dollars in politicians' pockets to trust them. If you don't believe me, take a look at the PATRIOT Act, PATRIOT II, or the latest BS about Bush claiming the terrorists are just waiting for the House to extend discussion on his latest usurpation of civil rights to attack us again, this time many times worse than 9/11. I don't care who you are, what party you "trust", or what country you're from- you have to admit that US foreign policy since 9/11 has generated much more hatred for the US than anything ever in history. For this reason, I support and utilize my 2nd Amendment rights just like I vote. Am I sure that my vote does any good? Not since the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004, which brings me back to good 'ole #2. Just like somebody else said- just because you might feel comfortable without a gun doesn't mean everyone has that luxury. And Neil- you've got the right not to get shot, just like your fellow man has the right to carry a gun that might end up saving your life. Happy trails

And for what it's worth, for those that think private citizens with handguns are dangerous- I carry an H&K .45 with Federal Expanding Full Metal Jackets and practice quite frequently, and I'll tell you why: I carry a handgun that is practically guaranteed never to malfunction. This gives me peace of mind. I chose the .45 caliber, with expanding full metal jackets, which are about the most lethal thing out there. I did this because I have in the forefront of my mind that with the accuracy of my handgun and the lethality of my rounds, IF I EVER have to pull my gun out, I can without a doubt be assured that someone is going to die. I hope it won't be me, but KNOWING that every day before I leave the house assures my levity of thought and reluctance of action. I wish everyone would do the same.

[aristide1]

The Second Amendment is particularly disliked by the Liberals among us, people who want the federal government to be in total control of our lives.

You haven't actually read the PATRIOT act, have you?

I object to such control, and the Second Amendment is some measure of guarantee that the USA will remain free from total government control. The Second Amendment is here to stay.....but being challenged daily it seems.

Well if you have one iota devoted to your civil rights compared to your gun rights (not to mention they outgun you, no matter who they are) then you might have the slightest chance in developing a clue about what it means to be an American.

[seraphyn]

Distrusting governments is only natural, fearing them however is something completely different. Fear means you believe that they are actually trying to hurt you, which is a clear sign that you should move to a different country.

About the lost elections and US foreign policy i can be brief. I find them both to have some major flaws, but which country isn't in these cases.

One thing i wonder though about you armed folk: Should muggers/burglars get the death penalty for their crimes? Because when you walk around armed and a guy tries something on you, you're going to blow him away instead of just handing him your 20 bucks and moving on.

Then again i don't live there, over here when people mug you they want your stuff, not actually kill you and take your stuff. May be some grave error in understanding of how criminals over there go about their business.

[aristide1]

Distrusting governments is only natural, fearing them however is something completely different.

Where does that leave screaming "they're right" while they screw you?

One thing i wonder though about you armed folk: Should muggers/burglars get the death penalty for their crimes? Because when you walk around armed and a guy tries something on you, you're going to blow him away instead of just handing him your 20 bucks and moving on.

That's practicing conservatism with your $20.

Also here to stay -
Criminals like Ken Lay and Scooter Libby, certain people claiming these are "good people".

Add to the list -
Overlooking treason when it's used to hurt the opposing party. Fair play, and all that. A genuine example of their kind of ethics.

[aristide1]

you have to admit that US foreign policy since 9/11 has generated much more hatred for the US than anything ever in history. For this reason, I support and utilize my 2nd Amendment rights just like I vote. Am I sure that my vote does any good? Not since the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004, which brings me back to good 'ole #2.

What's the point in staying if government corruption is this bad? Like living in a city where half the population is shooting the other half and vice versa, who in his right mind would arm themselves and still call that living?

I think you described why so many American have fled to Canada, and without being drafted first.

Cheney, of course, couldn't be bothered with either one. Only draft dodger I've ever seen with a fascination for arms, and like so many, only for shooting at whatever can't shoot back. (This is called "sport".)

[walle]

Laserred,

Excellent post with a sober observation.

[laserred]

Walle,
I've got Swedish ancestry, so tell me how it is to live there now, and is it true that the 99.8% of Swedish women that aren't on the Swedish Bikini Team only missed out because there weren't enough spots?

[aristide1]

I am in the second most dangerous place in the USA.

You're standing next to the guy who's hunting with Dick Cheney? You married Valerie Plame?

[NeilBlanchard]

Back on the OT: the shooter was well liked and by all accounts a model student when he attended that school. He had 4 guns -- a shotgun and 3 handguns. There were 6 shotgun shells and 48 bullet casings at the scene.

He had just purchased two of the guns about 6 days earlier, apparently legally. The only plausible indication that all was not well, was that he had stopped taking some (unspecified) medication and was acting erratically.

Why does a 27 year old graduate student need 3 handguns and a shotgun?

[walle]

Walle,
I've got Swedish ancestry, so tell me how it is to live there now, and is it true that the 99.8% of Swedish women that aren't on the Swedish Bikini Team only missed out because there weren't enough spots?

Living here is becoming increasingly worrisome, anyway; moving on towards the ladies, your figures are about right, close enough.

He had just purchased two of the guns about 6 days earlier, apparently legally. The only plausible indication that all was not well, was that he had stopped taking some (unspecified) medication and was acting erratically.

Thank you for the additional information Neil. Well, ending the medication rapidly can also cause these effects, such as changes in behaviour.

Why does a 27 year old graduate student need 3 handguns and a shotgun?

Good question, something is very wrong here.


Cheers

[laserred]

That's one of the things the wonderful drug companies here in the US never seem to mention- they keep pushing drugs (how many commercials for something new targeting YOU are on during every prime time show??) and a side effect of most of them especially when ending treatment (how convenient, right? You can't just quit the stuff) are severe depression and other mental problems. Thanks to.... YUP! Special interests and politicians. Thank you, Bill Frist & Co.!

[walle]

(regarding topic)
Added.

I should point out that a friend of mine is working within the medical profession. We talk quit often as friends do, unfortunately its been over the phone as of late because we’re both been busy making a living (as we all are) so its difficult to find the time getting together having a few pints and so on. Anyway; he told me that there are no scientifical studies done showing without any reasonable doubt that these medications were solely to be blamed (hmm), but, as he pointed out to me “anyone that knows how the brain and body functions understands that tampering with the chemicals in the brain (especially in young people whose brains are not fully developed yet) will manifest itself in various waysâ€

[klankymen]

Reading some of the comments in this thread almost makes me think liberals fear law-abiding citizens trying to defend themselves, more so than they fear criminals.

To an extent you might be right. The recent shooter legally had his guns.
Crime is bad and common, but stupidity is sooooo much worse. In a room with 10 sociopathic patriots who average 10 handguns each, and a ex-con petty pocket thief I'd be more worried about getting shot by the idiots.

This, you may understand, is a hyperbole, but so many people who are allowed to buy guns by the current interpretation of the second ammendment should most definitely not be buying guns.

[Plissken]

Crime is bad and common, but stupidity is sooooo much worse.

Yeah, you're right. The lonely retarded kid down the street is much worse than the murderer on the loose.
Try a different angle.

Since it's gotten so far off topic, can this thread be renamed to "NIU Shooting Incident" or "Why do all these guns keep shooting people?"?
It's too bad it was a "gun free zone". A couple of armed and trained NIU students or faculty could have saved lives.

These types of isolated incidents have been happening across the USA since the 1800s. It's only the heavy media coverage that causes all the recent stirs. You simply didn't hear about them in the old days. And do you know how many other people were shot and murdered on that same day? Where is their recognition... their story?

[klankymen]

Crime is bad and common, but stupidity is sooooo much worse.

Yeah, you're right. The lonely retarded kid with a semi-automatic weapon down the street is much worse than the murderer on the loose.

True. Criminals at least have an intent, which makes it possible for a good police force to predict or prevent. People just go crazy and decide to kill a dozen people overnight.

[Bluefront]

I think that Plissken just hit on one big problem for which there is no solution in sight....... sensational media coverage, which encourages copy-cat crimes. Within minutes of these sorts of crimes, almost everyone knows about it. It was not that way in the past. The criminal/murderer instantly becomes a hero of sorts.....at least in his own mind. Tone down the media coverage? Tell me how.....local media never publish news about solo suicides, attempting to avoid a copy-cat situation. Maybe such a thing could be applied to murderers...but I can suggest no way to bring that off.

Gun buy-back programs don't work.....they only remove the guns not likely to be used in murders. Old white ladies turn in their dead husband's guns for cash. Gun dealers/collectors turn in old, cheap, useless guns......not worth $50, and never likely to be used in a criminal situation. The authorities do buy back some guns.....but not the right ones.

Here's another solution that might work, but would require a change in current law.......spread the responsibility around to the family of the murderer, and the people he lived with. These people were the most likely to be aware of the murderer's mental state, of his possession of weapons, of all his illegal activity such as drugs. A new law could shift some of the punishment for a murder to these people, unless they contacted authorities with such information, before the murders/crimes occurred. The wife of Cookie Thornton, the murderer from the OP......certainly knew the man's mental state, and of his gun possession. And yet she said nothing....and will suffer no punishment under current law.

The suggestion is not likely to see the light of day.....I can hear all the screaming already.

So what are the other ways to remove guns from dangerous hands, to stop crimes before they are committed? The Patriot Act was supposed to do this......you can hear the screaming about that law in this very thread.

Tougher punishments for criminals? Not happening.

New gun laws.....won't remove the very weapons used in most crimes.

I'm willing to go for the tougher punishments, along with spreading the blame around to relatives. Not likely however....

[klankymen]

I'm willing to go for the tougher punishments

100% agree with you on that one, however applied to Germany. The punishments are laughable here. 15 years prison for 11 counts of manslaughter?

Juveniles getting 5 years for murder?

3 Years of Probation for juvenile attempted manslaughter?

3 foreigners mugging innocent senior citizens in the metro and not getting any prison time, or deported.

And then people wonder why all the german idiots become neo-nazis?
Not to encourage violence or antisemitism or anything, but there is a reason why there is much anti-foreign-immigrant sentiment in Europe.

[seraphyn]

Pfffft, have you seen the whole Holloway thing recently? The main suspect is a pathological liar who even confessed to the crime in front of a camera, shown on national and international television.

He doesn't even get arrested..

Or the people who terrorize entire blocks (destroying, assaulting etc), who's punishment consisted out of the mayor going by their parents house to talk about how things are.

Things are changing here though, right wing extremists are gathering quite a flock these days, anti immigrant feelings are on the rise and people are demanding harsher treatments.
Problem with this is however that this anti immigrant feelings are based on the rotten apples which is actually quite a small number compared to the total amount of immigrants we have here, which leads to the good suffering under the bad, a lot. The government percieves this demand for harsher treatments as an excuse to reduce our privacy more and more under the name of 'safety'. Fingerprint databases of containing prints of every citizen are in the make (just passed the bill) which opens the door for DNA databases. Couple this with the already constant phonetapping, internetlogging and our banks surrendering all their data to the US without question and you'll see that today is 31 december 1983.

opps... slight ranting there

Back on topic: Media coverage is a major issue in these things. It shows you every single day how bad things can get, bringing you down and judging things wrongly (seen you only see bad news, and often), leads to unjustified fear and bring unneeded defensive/agressive attitudes on the streets, which then leads to more media coverage etc etc.
Solving murderous crimes is hard. Can't be done with just taking out 1 factor of the equasion. It requires you to tackle their mentality, their upbringing, societies mentality, social networks and to a huge account, employment opportunities.
Harsher punishments have no effect beyond some point, death penalty is no deterrent but in my country for example, punishments just don't fit the crime.. 3 years for a child rapist for example (individual case, but still..)
The problem with solutions, or at least ideas which better the situation is that they will always cost money and time to have any effect. People who are over the edge now won't return to a normal life. If you campaign for a better world everyone agrees, when you say you need to raise taxes or something to get that done you'll be down in the polls so fast it'll make your head spin.

I don't agree with punishing the people next to him by law, but they should be pointed out that they could've seen it coming and media should cover that instead of just saying it was another kid listening to Marilyn Manson while playing counter strike.

[laserred]

To tell you how frickin retarded some states are, I just got a job in Illinois, right over the border from NW Indiana where I live. I currently have a LIFETIME CARRY PERMIT here in Indiana which I have held since 1999. I can carry anywhere I please except government buildings, but now once I travel to work in IL, I am completely stripped of my personal protection rights: IL does not allow ANYONE, even off-duty police officers, to carry a gun!! According to the Brady Center's statistics below, IL has a total crime rate of 541.6. Indiana, which has issued over 300,000 carry permits, has a rate of 314.8, which is a measly 42% lower. To top that off, IL even has communities that PROHIBIT owning a gun in your own house!! 2nd Amendment here, anyone?? Anyways, I guess my main point is that the only real way to reduce crime is to arm the masses.

I just remembered I had posted about this. I looked at the time stamp, it was less than two hours before the NIU incident. It kinda makes me feel prophetic in a very sad way, yet 100% reinforces the fact why I wanted the right to carry my gun in IL. The university that I go to currently allows me to carry my handgun in my vehicle but not into school buildings. Because, of course, if something like the NIU incident happens, I can always call a time-out and run to my car and get it. I guess I feel I would allow it because of this reason: in all of the school shootings, every single one of them, the eventual killer did not show up to attend class, sit down politely, and then 25 minutes into the class explode and just start shooting people. Nope, every single time, the killer has barged in on classes in progress and started shooting innocent, on-time students who (could be armed but aren't) have no way to defend themselves. My point here again is: Neil's right not to get shot applies here to everyone. If that right requires carrying his own handgun, that should be his right too. It should also be his right to protect himself wherever he goes, including universities. Because again, on-campus police just like city police can never make it to an incident like this in time, so the self-defense should be available everywhere.

[aristide1]

Anyways, I guess my main point is that the only real way to reduce crime is to arm the masses.

Offset by how many accidental killings?