Obama Is Not Black

[andyb]

I find it highly amusing when people rant about those who do not attempt to learn the language of the country they are in and in the same post demonstrate their lack of command of the same language.

"Populous" is an adjective. "Populace" is a noun.

I assume that you dont actually have anything sensible or productive to add, so you though you would pick up on the misuse of a word.

Pathetic.


Andy

[qviri]

I actually agree with your belief that people should integrate (to a degree) with the country's society, and should learn the local language. However, your form of presentation isn't particularly helping the overall cause, or making your individual argument more believable.

How convinced would you be by a forum member that claims that their particular method of calculating airflow volume is correct, while repeatedly making simple arithmetic mistakes?

(That's "thought", not "though".)

edit: I do realize the "though" is likely a typo.

[Ruu]

...take a nightclub, posh bar/restaurant, or even some bouncer guarded pubs as a perfect example. If you dont turn up wearing the things that they expect you dont get in.

But you ARE allowed into a country to stay when you barely know 10 words, if you were that badly dressed you would be wearing a bow-tie. The police would pick you up for indecent exposure...

Well, I realize that you're only using an analogy, but I think that the analogy doesn't quite match up to the topic.

Clubs, bars, and classy restaurants have dress codes because they want to promote a certain ambiance and a certain experience, and they don't permit a person entry if they feel that the said patron is going to disrupt that atmosphere.

I think it would be really, really difficult to define the "living ambiance" that the citizens of a nation would like from their government. I would be very uncomfortable to live under a government that denied human beings entry across its borders because that government perceived the appearance and linguistic mannerisms of certain people as a nuisance to the "living ambiance" of its citizens.

At the least, it's petulant social snobbery. At the worst, it encourages lack of interest in those different from oneself and one's own culture, which can lead to all manner of misinformation, which can lead to fear-mongering, which can lead to poor decision-making, etc etc.

I understand the sentiment behind what you're saying, but I absolutely disagree that language and linguistics can somehow be a good determiner of one's national group or social group or race group. There are plenty of foreign people that I know who speak, read, and write better (American) English than most of the people who live on my street. They are also better-informed of American current events. Based on your guidelines, should the American government deport my neighbors?

Grouping people by language can be as arbitrary and senseless as grouping people by "race" or skin-color or bloodline. It seems that the best we as human beings can do is just to be aware of such a tendency within us, not to argue about which tendency is the correct one.

... Under the premise, "Do they speak English with a native accent and as their first language." what country does a deaf/mute come from if he/she only knows international sign?

Ah, a very good point. Based on the "English with a native accent" premise, one might be forced to conclude that a deaf/mute's "first" language would be whatever language his parents speak. Bit silly, really.

Edit for clarity.

[andyb]

Clubs, bars, and classy restaurants have dress codes because they want to promote a certain ambiance and a certain experience, and they don't permit a person entry if they feel that the said patron is going to disrupt that atmosphere.

If the dress code are people, and the Club/Bar/Restaurant is a country why not. I am sure at some point you have been in a dress-code free place and a large group of people come in wearing black leather outfits (think "Biker" not "Kinky") you instantly feel the mood of the place change as the mood of its occupants changes.

Some people will be fearful, some will will stop talking for a moment then carry on talking with lowered voices, some people will leave. This is human nature, people are afraid of differences within groups of people and we all have stereotypes of others regardless of whether that stereotype has any merit of truth or accuracy.

As I mentioned, most people in London are really against any more immigration of anyone from anywhere for any reason. There are dozens of reasons why this has become a serious problem, but how do we go about stopping people coming into our country en-masse when they are not wanted. The simplest "fair" way I can think of is the speech test. It is a far more sensible and practical way of testing than race or skin colour, adding a couple of other simple tests to the list, evaluating general inteligence, and working skills would round things of nicely.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7694218.stm

Rather amusing to some older persons that have always been anti-mass immigration, immigrants that arived in our country decades ago are now complaining about immigration


Andy

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

A club/restaurant is where you go for entertainment and food.

A country is where you live.

These are not equivalent.

[andyb]

Hi,

A club/restaurant is where you go for entertainment and food.

A country is where you live.

These are not equivalent.

Up to the point where people start leaving the restaurant to go to another one, I know people who have moved to France, Spain, Canada and Australia. One of my best friends is currently planning on moving to Canada in a few years time because this country (restaurant) is losing much of its appeal (going down-hill).

Its bad business for a restaurant to loose half of its regular clients because persons that the regulars dont like come in. Personally if I was going to move restaurant, I would also go to Canada. Canada is one of the most difficult countries to get into, England even though it is surrouded by water is very easy indeed.

If the restaurant turns bad you find another restaurant, if your country goes bad its not as easy, many people feel that they have no choice but to move country. Immigrants come in, native persons emigrate out.


Andy

[qviri]

Personally if I was going to move restaurant, I would also go to Canada.

I'd advise you (and your friend) to stay away from Toronto, Vancouver, and especially Montréal...

[xan_user]

Personally if I was going to move restaurant, I would also go to Canada.

I'd advise you (and your friend) to stay away from Toronto, Vancouver, and especially Montréal...

Good one!

How do Montréal-eans fall under andyb's native language rule anyway?

I was born in Spain to Caucasian parents, named in Africa, grew up in Jamaica and speak with patois, but am a US citizen living in California..

Doesn't that mean I'm black?

[andyb]

I'd advise you (and your friend) to stay away from Toronto, Vancouver

Any particular reason, I know nothing about the specific parts of Canada except for Montreal.?

and especially Montréal...

I wouldnt bother, its basically a french colony. I have never even considered the possibility of moving to a foreign country where the common language is not English. I would have to thoroughly learn another language reading, writing and speaking, I would have to learn their customs, beliefs and laws. Or I could move to a country that is quite similar to mine in most respects, but I would have to get used to driving on the wrong side of the road in USA and Canada.

I was born in Spain to Caucasian parents, named in Africa, grew up in Jamaica and speak with patois, but am a US citizen living in California..

Doesn't that mean I'm black?

No, that means that you are an American with an interesting background that gives you a far more diverse knowlege of those parts of our planet from your specific perspective than the average person around you that has never even left the US, or even knows where other countries are that you speak of.

I used to work with a Caucasian Jew born to at least one English parent, he doesnt like Judaism, spent half of his life in South Africa, and has married a lady from The Maldives (if my memory serves me correctly), she is now also a British citizen and perfectly avoids and and all of my "issues" with the subject matter at hand.

He is neither "White" "Black" or "Jewish", he is British, likewise his better half.


Andy

[jaganath]

Personally if I was going to move restaurant, I would also go to Canada.

I'd advise you (and your friend) to stay away from Toronto, Vancouver, and especially Montréal...

andy, I assume this advice is given because Toronto is essentially like London (lots of foreigners, lots of crime), Vancouver is officially twinned with Hong Kong (hence HongKouver) and Montreal is full of bastardised frogs.

still, the rest of Canada is quite nice, I hear.

[qviri]

andy, I assume this advice is given because Toronto is essentially like London (lots of foreigners, lots of crime), Vancouver is officially twinned with Hong Kong (hence HongKouver) and Montreal is full of bastardised frogs.

still, the rest of Canada is quite nice, I hear.

Yup, all 10 of them.


As an aside: Toronto is actually relatively safe compared to other large cities in Canada. Further, the one group vastly overrepresented when it comes to committing and being punished for crimes are the Natives. They speak English and I wouldn't really call them immigrants.

[Googly_Eyes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto

it's not very complicated

[andyb]

Mulatto sounds like a Coffee.

"Can I have one Latte, two Cappuccino's and a Mulatto please"

I think I will stick with "mixed-race" and "half-caste" as they are descriptions everyone can understand without going through the process of the explanation of a new word that people will only ever remember as it sounds like a hot drink made from seeds.


Andy

[Aris]

Color has come to mean exactly that. The color of your skin, not who raised you, which ethnicity you associate with, or anything else. Its merely a descriptive terminology. Like saying you have red hair, or a tatoo on your right arm, or a scar over your left eye.

Black is a color
African American is an ethnicity

You can be black and not be african american, and visa versa. There are white people living in africa you know, and if they come to the US, they would also be considered african american even though they are white.

His outward appearance is closer to black than white, so its fair to say that he is indeed black. And he is indeed the first black president in US history.

[andyb]

Color has come to mean exactly that. The color of your skin, not who raised you, which ethnicity you associate with, or anything else. Its merely a descriptive terminology. Like saying you have red hair, or a tatoo on your right arm, or a scar over your left eye.

I agree, so does Chris Rock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggas_vs._Black_People

Black is a color
African American is an ethnicity

I understand the differences there, and I understand that if you are American and "White" you are American etc etc.

There are 2 problems here.

1,) You really need to go one way or the other, you are either classified by ethnicity or colour, and not both at the same time. One is as you have said a description, and the other is an ethicity but most people use these descriptions interchangeably.

Therefore people are either white, black, brown, green etc or european descent, african descent, asian descent, non-earth descent. Thus Obama would either be black/brown because of his skin colour or mixed-race by his ethicity.

On this basis, it would be just as valid to describe everyone by their religious beliefs or the make of car they drive, thus your soon-to-be president is a Christian....

2,) Obama is not African American, he is mixed race. The whole idea of being slapped by the tar brush just once does not reduce his european ancestry to 0% instantly.


Andy