Stopping Murders in the USA ?

[djkest]

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime –has risen.
Fact: This recent increase in crimes has nothing to do with gun laws. Increase in these types of crimes are mostly caused by immigration, not by gun ban. These are the types of crimes that are mostly done by foreigners/immigrants. 15% of UK prisoners are of foreign nationality. Prisoners are released early to make room for the newcomers.

We have a similar problem with illegal immigrants here in the US. But our crime rate is still going down. I think that last statistic I heard was that illegal immigrants are 5x more likely to commit a crime than a legal immigrant. But I don't have a source for that.

"Of 47 killings between April and September where the nationality of the accused is known, 26 of the suspects— 55 per cent —are not Britons". 10% of all murder victims were under 16, more then half were under 30. 25% of all gun crimes are done by under-18s."They're young. They sell drugs. They carry weapons and murder each other." Half of the youth gangs are African-Caribbean.

Like you said: "Most gun violence is between criminals". That means, that even if law abiding citizen were allowed to carry guns, these numbers would have increased, probably even more so. Not many law abiding people are willing to shoot someone over a street robbery. It's easier just to give your wallet. And unless women were walking around with guns in their hands, they wouldn't have any more chances against rapists then they do now. That would actually be a pretty frightening scenario. Because as we know, every man, who happens to coincidentally walk in the same direction as a lone woman, is automatically a stalker (in her eyes), especially if it's dark. Arming these scared, paranoid and possibly trigger happy women isn't exactly a great idea. Yikes!

First, a lot of your reasoning is your opinion. You state arming law abiding citizens would likely increase crime. I dissagree. I have already show how increased gun ownership in the US corresponds to a decrease in crime rate. I've also shown that 1/10th of 1% of guns are used in crimes. In addition, the presence of guns often prevents crime, as I have ALREADY SHOWN. About trigger happy emotionally unstable women, I dont' think they should have guns. But in most places, you are held accountable for your actions, and you get to decide what you will or wont' do. Crazy people already can't have guns (in the US, you have to get a background check), and getting a concealed carry permit requires additional firearms training and registration w/ local law enforcement.

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot burglariesâ€

[djkest]

Years ago a friend and myself went to a field where he tested his new shotgun. When he was done we were leaving and he had it pointed downwards, at my foot. I moved out of the way. He asked me why I did that. The safety was on. I said "so?". So he pulls the trigger and WHOOM which left this hole in the ground, where I was standing. He took it back, the spring fell off the safety latch. He commented "Sounds like a great lawsuit." And it would have been had I not moved out of the way.

I'm sorry for your traumatic experience with shotguns. Your friend was not following the most basic rules of firearms use. I always follow 3 simple rules and it prevents any type of accident, all the time, every time.

1) Treat every gun as if it were loaded, ALL THE TIME

2) Never point a weapon at something you do not intend to destroy.

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

He also may have violated some other rules but basically, you dont' rely on a safety for anything, even though they are nice. It could have been due to a manufacturers defect or due to improper reassembly following cleaning. If you just follow rule #1 most of the time you are good to go. Most accidents happen when people "know" the gun is unloaded, but it isn't. Sounds like he needs more training/ education.

[Bluefront]

djkest....you certainly must realize that the gun laws always advocated by the Liberals among us, are always directed toward the good law-abiding citizens. I have never heard of any attempt on their part to dis-arm the criminals.

The amount of legally owned guns used in crimes, is next to nothing, so I suspect gun laws proposed by Liberals have some other intent. Perhaps in the Liberal agenda there is something that makes them fear legal gun owners. Seems that way....

[andyb]

DJKEST, you seem to hve missed Nick705's post (or at least didnt respond to it).

He has pointed out that your graphs are not just inaccurate, they are damned wrong.

Here are the official government statistics for murder in the USA and UK (thanks to nick).

UK, 765 homicides 2005/2006, populous ~ 60,000,000, 1.275 per 100,000 persons.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page40.asp

USA, 17,034 homicides 2006, populous ~ 300,000,000, 5.678 per 100,000 persons.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

You are 4.453 times more likely to be murdered than I am Have a nice day.


Andy

[aristide1]

djkest....you certainly must realize that the gun laws always advocated by the Liberals among us, are always directed toward the good law-abiding citizens.....

Now Bluefront is saying that Rudy Guiliani is a liberal.
Oh brother.

[aristide1]

I have never heard of any attempt on their part to dis-arm the criminals.

Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist. The reason things like background checks, which addresses your biased generalization, don't become law is because of the NRA, which is a bunch of white guys in case you didn't notice that too, spend all kinds of money to stop any and all legislation. And they stick their nose into your business without even living there.

Duh.

[aristide1]

UK, 765 homicides 2005/2006, populous ~ 60,000,000, 1.275 per 100,000 persons.

That's probably lower than the capital sentence death rate of Texas.

Ironically my college studies (which require work, not whining) showed that there are 12 states with lower murder rates than Texas, and many of them don't have capital punishment.

[Trip]

Just goes to show that if more people had had guns there, they could have shot him earlier and thus saved lives.

Well-trained, responsible men ought to be armed.

To an extent I agree with you, although some people would probably coin me a leftist (American "liberal"), I would probably carry if I lived in a state that allowed it, or at least be happy to have the possibility.

On the other hand, the hardest part would be to ensure that only responsible people get it - and that's hard to judge.

Indeed. I don't like the idea of giving every maniac a gun, but I also fear the current US government.

Each society would have to decide whom is best to allow to be armed, but it is an important check on government power I think. As technology progresses though... it would take a wise man to be right on such a complex issue.

---

I don't carry, but I might if I lived in Bluefront's high crime area.

---

I must confess, I wrote the original post to make the point that guns can save lives rather than that guns ought to have been allowed in that particular situation. A policeman or security guard certainly should have been carrying a gun, but others I'm less sure about.

---

The danger of taking guns away is that the only two left with them would be the government, ultimately taking orders from the federal government, and the criminals, as well as likely ethnic communities and other run down areas that the authorities shy away from due to political correctness or simply fear.

He who has loyal soldiers takes the wealth of he who does not. That is the eternal rule And I don't wish to be proven correct

[djkest]

DJKEST, you seem to hve missed Nick705's post (or at least didnt respond to it).

He has pointed out that your graphs are not just inaccurate, they are damned wrong.

Here are the official government statistics for murder in the USA and UK (thanks to nick).

UK, 765 homicides 2005/2006, populous ~ 60,000,000, 1.275 per 100,000 persons.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page40.asp

USA, 17,034 homicides 2006, populous ~ 300,000,000, 5.678 per 100,000 persons.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

You are 4.453 times more likely to be murdered than I am Have a nice day.


Andy

The UK has a history of Under-reporting crime statistics. I can provide more information about this soon, I'm supposed to run to school again.

Oh and Andy, I think I can guarentee you where I live has a lower crime rate than where you live. Also, due to my training and access to firearms, I'd say the chances of me being murdered are even lower. Plus, I'm not a criminal. (not saying you are either)

[qviri]

Without knowing any details, I'm willing to bet this was an example how immigration makes scandinavian culture more lively.

Yes, the examples are fairly common these days, aren't they?

Forgive me my ignorance, but how exactly does Nicole Kidman's swimsuit have anything to do with it?

Without knowing any details, would you bet that a man named "Zlatko Nedanovski" was born in Sweden?

[nick705]

I have already show how increased gun ownership in the US corresponds to a decrease in crime rate. I've also shown that 1/10th of 1% of guns are used in crimes. In addition, the presence of guns often prevents crime, as I have ALREADY SHOWN.

You've "shown" nothing of the sort, all you've done is parrot a list of so-called "facts" copied verbatim from your bullshit "Gun Facts" bible, which, frankly, demonstrates some of the most disgraceful (ab)uses of statistics I've ever seen. False causality, discarding unfavourable data, overgeneralisation, samples with built-in bias, the "gee-whiz graph" and downright falsehoods, all the tricks in the book are there.

The UK has a history of Under-reporting crime statistics. I can provide more information about this soon, I'm supposed to run to school again.

I look forward to reading it, no doubt it will incorporate more carefully-researched data from your usual unbiased sources.

[Erssa]

First, a lot of your reasoning is your opinion. You state arming law abiding citizens would likely increase crime. I dissagree.

No, I didn't state that. I was talking about gun violence. Even law abiding citizen can make poor judgement calls, especially if they are under influence. People flare up sometimes, and when they do it's guaranteed to be safer, if they aren't carrying firearms.

Crazy people already can't have guns (in the US, you have to get a background check), and getting a concealed carry permit requires additional firearms training and registration w/ local law enforcement.

This certainly prevented Virginia Tech massacre. Seung-Hui Cho legally purchased the guns he used.

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot burglariesâ€

[Erssa]

Without knowing any details, would you bet that a man named "Zlatko Nedanovski" was born in Sweden?

I would, because the odds would be in my favor. But names don't really tell the whole truth. For example Mohamed is currently one of the most popular names in Finland for newborn boys. Soon I'd be hard pressed to guess, if a random Mohamed was an immigrant or child of an immigrant.

Anyway... stabbing to death over a hat isn't exactly the kind of crime aboriginal scandinavians would do. It's the kind of crime, that Kurdish, Turkish, Iraqi or Somalian immigrants might do. If you have seen any happy slapping videos, you know what I mean.

"Stealing" someones swimming suit however doesn't strike that odd. World is full of people, how would pick up french fries that Brad Pitt dropped on the floor, so they can sell them on Ebay...

[Bluefront]

It is futile to blame the gun for this incident, since the gun didn't pull the trigger, and since guns are here to stay in the USA. They are something we have to deal with, since they won't just go away.

The one thing that seems to work rather well.....metal detectors at the entrances of public buildings. Most schools in the City of St Louis now have them, as well as other public buildings where confrontations are likely to happen.....the court-house, etc. The areas outside St Louis proper, have been slow to implement metal detectors. Certainly this Kirkwood incident will speed things up.

It's a shame we've gotten to this point. But here we are, with few viable options. I blame the court system and it's lax treatment of criminals....that can be changed. Other people blame the guns....that cannot be changed.

Mass murder can be pulled off using a variety of objects.....9-11 was made possible using a few very short knives.....and any sharp object could have been used instead. No legislation against guns or knives would have stopped it. We need to change the way this society operates, to prevent another mass murder like this one. A police state? No, but one different from what we are used to.

[lm]

It's a shame we've gotten to this point. But here we are, with few viable options. I blame the court system and it's lax treatment of criminals....that can be changed. Other people blame the guns....that cannot be changed.

I pretty much blame the system that makes people resort to crime. Why would anyone really want to rob other people, if they could have a nice job that pays the rent...

[seraphyn]

It's a shame we've gotten to this point. But here we are, with few viable options. I blame the court system and it's lax treatment of criminals....that can be changed. Other people blame the guns....that cannot be changed.

I usually blame the criminals themselfs, the faults that were made to prevent them from turning out this way and depending on country, the way soceity is currently.

What i always find strange is this 'arm myself against the government' arguement..
If you need to arm yourself vs a government you elected yourselfs, maybe you're already way to late with your revolution and claiming back your freedom.

[djkest]

What i always find strange is this 'arm myself against the government' arguement..
If you need to arm yourself vs a government you elected yourselfs, maybe you're already way to late with your revolution and claiming back your freedom.

It's nothing new. It was put into our constitution over 200 years ago. I think currently most americans do no feel the way that bluefront and I do. Most would just roll over and die if push came to shove. But an armed society is better able to resist unlawful or immoral actions by the government. There are many examples throughout history of gun control proceeding wholesale slaughter by a dictator.

[Bluefront]

lm.....this particular incident aside, almost all the killings, and most of the other crimes in the city of St Louis, involve illegal drugs....in one way or the other. A guy robs a store for drug money, another guy gets killed because he owes a drug debt, another gets killed because he sold drugs in another's "territory", a dealer gets killed for his drug stock, a cop gets killed in the middle of such activity, etc.

No supply of good-paying jobs for these people, will stop the drug-related crime. Unless you're close to this scene, hear about it every day, it's hard to believe.....but true.

So what's the solution? Virtually every street murder in St Louis is committed with an illegal, unregistered gun bought off the street. No law can stop such a thing. Guns are here to stay, and so apparently are drugs......and there's no shortage of people who mix the two.

[neon joe]

almost all the killings, and most of the other crimes in the city of St Louis, involve illegal drugs.....

Virtually every street murder in St Louis is committed with an illegal, unregistered gun bought off the street.

Blanket statements like these should be backed up with some facts. I have a difficult time with any generalization, unless there is at least some supporting evidence...

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello Carl,

Virtually every street murder in St Louis is committed with an illegal, unregistered gun bought off the street.

Where do these guns come from, I wonder?

Do they get purchased at "gun shows" where there is NO background check, and NO waiting period? Do they get stolen from gun stores and from homes?

Of course, there is no "magic wand" solution to get rid of all illegal guns instantaneously, but should we just give up trying to reduce/slow down the flow?

[andyb]

Guns are here to stay

I presume that you have already admited defeat, you are talking as though you have already lost, or is it just a lack of trying.

With a very high murder rate such as you have in the USA you should be trying as hard as you can to bring it down and not just giving up.

I will certainly agree with your point that guns dont kill people, people do, but if you had less guns your murder rate would drop, tell me how you propose to reduce the murder rate in the USA whilst you are still selling guns by the thousand.


Andy

[NeilBlanchard]

Greetings,

Guns don't kill people, people do.

So, if we replace "guns" with other weapons, this should still make sense, right?

Poisons don't kill people, people do.

Pointed sticks don't kill people, people do.

Bombs don't kill people, people do.

Laser guided missiles don't kill people, people do.

Of course, people use weapons to kill other people, so does that make it okay to have a bunch of weapons around to make it easier to kill?

[Bluefront]

Neil....most of the weapons you mention cannot be removed from our life. Pointed sticks....easy to make out of anything. Bombs.....easy to make with directions posted on the Net. Poisons......everywhere. Guns.....everywhere. Military equipment is the exception.

This State has had background checks for hand-gun purchases for the last forty years, maybe longer (and that includes gun shows...you need a permit in advance of the show). It used to take two weeks. Now they use a computer for the back-ground check...more thorough than before. The guns used in crimes are not purchased legally......no back-ground check. Where do these illegal guns come from? You name it...... But they are here, and easy to find/buy if you are so inclined. No legislation will make them go away.

You want to remove legal hand-guns.....relatively easy. My name is on file with the county for every gun I own. You could get mine easy enough, along with every other legal hand-gun. But the illegal guns possessed by the criminals......how are you going to do that?

A Draconian-type law might do it. Like....The possession of a single gun or bullet subjects you to instant capitol punishment. Any gun found in your car.....the car is forfeit. Any gun or bullet found in a house.....the house is bull-dozed. Etc. You'd get most of the guns like that....mine for sure. But this is the USA.....we don't do those things here.

[andyb]

Of course, people use weapons to kill other people, so does that make it okay to have a bunch of weapons around to make it easier to kill?

Neil, I think that you took my point a bit too literally, my point was that people use those items to kill other people, and some kill themselves and others with those thinks by accident, but as this entire subject is about murder I didnt think that it was worth mentioning the obvious accidents that will occur.

You missed the big one, mines - unlike all of the other items you listed mines are the only ones that kill indiscriminately (if everything works as planned), all of the others are designed to kill and are used by people and are aimed. A bullet does not get itself out of the box, load itself into a gun, the gun does not cock iteslf, aim itself and pull its own trigger, people do, so from that very simple perspective people kill other, not the weaponary itself, that is just the means.

Unfortunately people are stupid and malicious and people will kill each other on purpose and by accident, which is why parents put dangerous medicinal drugs on the top shelf and get their children to look both ways before crossing the road. But unlike drugs and cars which have non-lethal purposes guns only have one purpose and that it to harm and kill, the fewer guns the fewer mistakes and murders there will be via guns.

There is only one way to control the amount of gun crime, and that is to have fewer guns, unfortunately would be murderers and criminals can and often will still kill people by other means, but guns are very very easy to use, and gain.

The UK would have a much higher murder rate if every criminal out there had a gun like they do in the USA, but they dont, and we still have far too many guns in this country.


Andy

[qviri]

But the illegal guns possessed by the criminals......how are you going to do that?

A Draconian-type law might do it. Like....The possession of a single gun or bullet subjects you to instant capitol punishment. Any gun found in your car.....the car is forfeit. Any gun or bullet found in a house.....the house is bull-dozed. Etc. You'd get most of the guns like that....mine for sure. But this is the USA.....we don't do those things here.

You support the death penalty for particularly serious crimes, and the right of people to kill in self-defence. Why not bulldozing the homes of criminals who possess firearms illegally?

[Bluefront]

I'd pass such a law in a flash.....Israel does such things right now. But this is not Israel, and we don't do such things here, even though it might be a good deterrent to illegal gun use.

I think both Liberals and Conservatives would cry up a storm if anyone proposed such a law....

[klankymen]

That's what you call a police state. In theory for what it's trying to do, it's pretty good. however, if the state has such power they can easily start using it for anything else, such as censorship, or any amount of minor crimes that are commited on a daily basis without doing any harm. And eventually you have a dictatorshit.

[LAThierry]

Mass murder can be pulled off using a variety of objects....9-11 was made possible using a few very short knives.....

9/11 was a devious but elaborately planned attack by a GROUP of people, not to be compared with a spur of the moment, crime of passion, opportunity, payback or rage from ONE person that is so often the case with the crimes we're talking about. It's hypocritical to hear a gun advocate claiming that sharp (or blunt or whatever) weapons can be lethal because if you asked them how they plan to defend against such crazy people, I bet their answer would be "with my gun of course!". Let's face it, bullets are easier to kill with in the vast majority of scenarios because targets can't outrun them while the shooter can even remains hidden a certain distance away.

almost all the killings, and most of the other crimes in the city of St Louis, involve illegal drugs

Agreed. While there are tragic cases involving innocent by-standers, statistics have shown that most crime is NOT random but by people the victim associates with, at least within the same element.

Which leads me to believe that the gun advocates are greatly exaggerating their much-touted sales pitch scenario of "defending yourself from an intruder in your home" or "woman protecting herself from stalker outside her door" because the criminal is more likely to be someone you know, live with or work with. The leading cause of death of pregnant women is homicide usually by husband or lover, that's a WELL documented fact. The 2nd leading cause of death of women 15 to 44 is murder as well, if I'm not mistaken, usually by husband or lover, behind car accidents being #1.

Speaking of people around us, assuming you live outside of the criminal element of course, you should then worry EQUALLY about both the criminals and the non-criminals "gone bad". Frankly, I don't trust the average Joe or Jane around me to be sufficiently trained and cool-headed to deserve a gun, nor careful enough to assure us their weapon will not get into the wrong hands. The gun advocates conveniently seem to forget that your good neighbor (or someone in their household with access to the gun, anyone really) can just snap one day, grab the weapon and create mayhem. We hear about violent crimes committed every week by "first timers" that involve guns in situations like these:
- distraught spouse, ex or lover, angry over being cheated on, over being divorced, pregnant, child custody / support dispute
- disgruntled employee or business partner feeling he's owed or has been cheated out of money
- teenager who snaps at his family or schoolmates for whatever reason (classmates picking on him, parents grounding him)
- heated argument in a bar, nightclub, among friends or even while driving turning deadly (road rage)
- being an innocent by-stander in any of the above situation

Note that in most of the these situation the gun is often more, sometimes at least as, never less capable than a blade or blunt weapon.

[Bluefront]

What do you mean "can" be lethal. OJ killed two people with a knife....a crime of passion. Had the poor guy he stabbed been carrying, it would be "O.J. the dead attempted murderer".

Murders w/o guns happen here frequently. About a year ago, I posted about a woman who killed another woman with a scissors, and drown her three kids in a washing machine.

The crazies around her like to run over each other with their cars....frequently.

When you live in/near a dangerous area......you've more to worry about than just guns. We need to deal with crime as a whole, not just hand-guns.

[djkest]

Hello Carl,

Where do these guns come from, I wonder?

Do they get purchased at "gun shows" where there is NO background check, and NO waiting period? Do they get stolen from gun stores and from homes?

Actually there are background checks at gun shows. It does vary from state to state, but any dealer of firearms is required to perform a background check. The "gangsters" have ways of getting around this though. They can try and do a private sale, which does not have a background check. They would have to purchase from a private individual. They also often have their girlfriend/ baby's momma fill out the form FOR them, and but it for them.

The problem with background checks for private sales, is that would mean say if my grandpa gave me a rifle, or if my best friend sold me a gun, those situations would also require background checks. Unless the law was more specific towards these instances.

Apparently there are a lot of "thug types" at gun shows now (I stopped going to them), and as a result usually a fair amount of undercover police officers.