Bullfighter survives goring, what a shame

[bonestonne]

So let me get this right, because I guess I'm off in left field for this thread, waiting for the ball to come my way, and someone just threw it in the wrong direction again....

So, you're saying, that "true justice" as you put it, is about the Matador dying, simply because the Bull 'raged upon him,' to put it one way?

So the modern marvels of the Hospitals and medical treatment that humans have developed, basically to prevent deaths, such as stupid things as this, shouldn't be used?

(I'm going to jump onto the Lumberjack train here)

So if a lumberjack is doing his job, cutting down trees, and the tree falls in his direction, impales him in several places, he shouldn't be given immediate, life-saving treatment?

This is all assuming that the Matador's job is to entice the bull, regardless of risk.

I mean, all jobs have risks.

What about that Shamoo incident at Sea World? Was that not a shame to you?

Yes, there are occupational hazards, but that doesn't make someone less entitled to life-saving treatments, which is kind of what you are saying, whether or not that's what you mean, that's how it's coming out.

[andyb]

So the modern marvels of the Hospitals and medical treatment that humans have developed, basically to prevent deaths, such as stupid things as this, shouldn't be used?

I didnt say that, but its good to know that you also think that this (bullfighting I assume) is "stupid".

So if a lumberjack is doing his job, cutting down trees, and the tree falls in his direction, impales him in several places, he shouldn't be given immediate, life-saving treatment?

I would hope that the opposite was true.

This is all assuming that the Matador's job is to entice the bull, regardless of risk.

The Matador's "job" is to piss the bull off, getting it to charge at his flag many times, and then start stabbing swords into its shoulders whilst continuing to piss of the bull by getting it to charge at the flag.

Wow, what a usefull purposeful "job", anyone who does that is utterly pathetic.

So, you're saying, that "true justice" as you put it, is about the Matador dying, simply because the Bull 'raged upon him,' to put it one way?

I should really have used the phrase "poetic justice", as "true justice does not really exist, and one persons concept of both the word "true" and "justice" will be different, wheras "poetic justice" is far easier to clarify and more exact to my feeling on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_justice

"Poetic justice is a literary device in which virtue is ultimately rewarded or vice punished, often in modern literature by an ironic twist of fate intimately related to the character's own conduct."

I mean, all jobs have risks.

Yes, some years ago I electrocuted myself whilst at work, it was entirely my fault, but as I was "working" I could have made something out of it, but chose not to.

What about that Shamoo incident at Sea World? Was that not a shame to you?

Of course it was, it seems like it was a mixture of an accident (long hair getting caught on Orca), and a mis-understanding by the Orca who thought it was playtime. I dont know if I am 100% right ion this, its been a while since I read anything about the story.

Yes, there are occupational hazards, but that doesn't make someone less entitled to life-saving treatments, which is kind of what you are saying, whether or not that's what you mean, that's how it's coming out.

I didnt say that directly, but it would be "poetic justice" wouldnt it. You dont see a bunch of people run on to pull out the first sword stuck between the shoulder-blades and then start cleaning out the wound and then stitch up the bulls wound - presumably if they were required to do that the amount of people watching this bloodsport would drop off to nothing, and it would disapear, or it would have the physical violence done to the bull removed (rosettes) and I would then have sypathy for the Bullnonfighter.

Although I have mentioned this before, I might as well again. I hate any and all bloodsports that use unwilling participants (animals usually, people torturing, and hunting has been illegal all over the world for hundreds of years).


Andy

[bonestonne]

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, I'm just trying to wrap my head around what you're trying to get at.

Yes, some years ago I electrocuted myself whilst at work, it was entirely my fault, but as I was "working" I could have made something out of it, but chose not to.

I'm just going to say that this kind of statement is beyond subjective.

You electrocuted yourself? That sounds a little harsh, did you do this intentionally, or was it accidental, meaning 'you were electrocuted at work'?

This is a sensitive question, because if you had intentionally electrocuted yourself, whether or not you make a big deal of it, all costs for medical treatment should not be the responsibility of your employer, you intentionally did this.

If it really is an accident, then that's why businesses have accident insurance and whatnot. These things happen, and that's how businesses cover themselves from certain insurance liabilities.

I'm not going to say I approve of bullfighting, however I don't wildly protest it, or the participating Matadors, hurt or not, simply because it's a cultural thing. Dog fighting, Cock fighting, all the way back to the battles within the Colosseum. They are all parts of that society and their cultures. By all means, protesting is a right for all people that should be exercised whenever necessary, however I can't help but retain the mindset that cultural events are just sacred grounds.

For example, I love auto racing, not nascar, but drag racing and racing spec cars. When a driver gets severely injured or hurt, they deserve every chance that exists to be given the best possible treatment, and if anyone who didn't like racing ever said anything against that, I would find that very cold, if not immoral.

Choose your example, put yourself in a comparable situation, and somehow I think anyone in their right mind would want the best possible care in the event of anything going wrong.

[andyb]

I'm just going to say that this kind of statement is beyond subjective.

You electrocuted yourself? That sounds a little harsh, did you do this intentionally, or was it accidental, meaning 'you were electrocuted at work'?

I electrocuted myself by accident because I did something stupid, the fact that I was at work was a side point. If I lived in America, no doubt I would have gone for litigation, but thats not how things work over here (although it is going that way).

This is a sensitive question, because if you had intentionally electrocuted yourself, whether or not you make a big deal of it, all costs for medical treatment should not be the responsibility of your employer, you intentionally did this.

If it really is an accident, then that's why businesses have accident insurance and whatnot. These things happen, and that's how businesses cover themselves from certain insurance liabilities.

The fault and blame were entirely my responsibility, I was not going to even attempt to blame someone else.

With respect this is way off topic and now the example has lost its point and direction.

I'm not going to say I approve of bullfighting, however I don't wildly protest it, or the participating Matadors, hurt or not, simply because it's a cultural thing.

however I can't help but retain the mindset that cultural events are just sacred grounds.

This is another subject that I really hate. I cant blame you for your opinion on this matter because you are a product of your upbringing and surroundings (to some degree), but I would ask you to not blindly follow everything that can be considered "cultural".

Male and female genital mutilation is "cultural", binge-drinking is "cultural", gang-rape is "cultural"........... there are numerous other examples of things that people from "other cultures" simply cannot defend any longer as "cultural", I assume that you cannot defend any of the above, so how can you defend animal mutilation for human entertainment.? Is it simply that humans are worth so much more than other species on our planet.?

It is only a matter of time before bullfighting and other bloodsports are not going to be acceptable even under the protection of the "C" word. Look at an example that keeps on coming up, Roman blood-sports involving people, Christians, Lions etc, look at slavery - it used to be acceptable just a few hundred years ago. Women could not vote just last century in many countries, and in some still cant, the world moves on, what is acceptable at one time is not at another time. In the past most humans didnt have "human rights" let alone animals, things have come a long way, most first world countries have "animal rights" to some degree as well as humans of course, some countries are simply behind the leaders of the modern world, its only a matter of time (without a massive catastrophe) before those countries catch up, then many third world countries will be the only ones remaining that are still "barbaric", except religion of course because it is even more immune to moving on and doing the right thing than "culture". Will religion, or "culture" be the last bastion of imorallity.?

For example, I love auto racing, not nascar, but drag racing and racing spec cars. When a driver gets severely injured or hurt, they deserve every chance that exists to be given the best possible treatment, and if anyone who didn't like racing ever said anything against that, I would find that very cold, if not immoral.

I cant but feel that you and many others that have commented here simply miss the point that all of these examples DO NOT include deliberate mutilation and torture of animals for fun and entertainment.

I have seen a video of a GT car that hit a rabbit/hare as it was crossing the track, a hell of a mess. Now imagine that the "sport" was to drive around killing loads of rabbits. Its not how fast you go, its about the amount of rabbits you kill. This would be a bloodsport, just like bullfighting. No doubt it would never get off of the ground (so to speak) because it would not be acceptable to do, and there is no history or assosciated "culture" to defend it with.

Choose your example, put yourself in a comparable situation, and somehow I think anyone in their right mind would want the best possible care in the event of anything going wrong.

I keep on saying this. If it was an accident, and was not caused by a pissed off animal that was being tortured for fun and entertainment of course I would expect the person to get lots of medical attention, I would also expect the bullfighter to get the same, but I would have sympathy for the race car driver, and not the bullfighter because even if the race car driver hit a rabbit (by accident) and that somehow made his car crash resulting in injury he would not have done such a thing on purpose because what he does for his job is to drive a car round a track and go faster than other people doing the same thing, it has nothing in the slightest with deliberate torture and mutilation of an animal for fun and entertainment.

As you might have noticed I cant seem to make this fundamental distinction enough times and in enough ways. If someone tortures and mutilates an animal on purpose for fun and entertainment, and that animal then kills their tormentor, I would have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone involved except the animal being tortured.


Andy

[bonestonne]

Male and female genital mutilation is "cultural", binge-drinking is "cultural", gang-rape is "cultural"........... there are numerous other examples of things that people from "other cultures" simply cannot defend any longer as "cultural", I assume that you cannot defend any of the above, so how can you defend animal mutilation for human entertainment.? Is it simply that humans are worth so much more than other species on our planet.?

Now you're just throwing $h1t around like a monkey. Honestly. You don't have to counter every argument or example against you, I do believe the term is "agree to disagree."

You just kind of summed it up by saying:

I cant blame you for your opinion on this matter because you are a product of your upbringing and surroundings

That's kind of the end of it. You're holding these people's upbringing against them.

I certainly don't blindly follow everything and consider everything be cultural. You're stepping into extreme moral grounds bringing up genital mutilation, gang rape, etc. I don't know anyone who would even joke about any of that. And don't even get me started on binge drinking, I have better personal reasoning to hate that with a burning passion than most other people.

That's just incredibly judgmental.

[andyb]

Now you're just throwing $h1t around like a monkey. Honestly. You don't have to counter every argument or example against you, I do believe the term is "agree to disagree."

I had gone a little off topic (again, trying to use an example to try to get some kind of response that actually involved the firing of neurons in the human brain), the ideal alternative would be to simply ignore it, just like everything else, because it is much easier to change the subject than to answer questions. Obviously this is not ideal, as you actually responed, ignore, ignore, ignore, when you have no answer.

You fell into your own trap, you used a totally stupid argument to defend something, and all you can come up with to defend yourself is quoted above. I expected far more from you, I am saddened.

You just kind of summed it up by saying:

Quote:
I cant blame you for your opinion on this matter because you are a product of your upbringing and surroundings

That's kind of the end of it. You're holding these people's upbringing against them.

You like twisting words........ Not once did I say that I DONT understand a motive/reason for such acts of brutality, I merely expressed that I really really dont like it, and would not be at all unhappy if the bullfighter was gored and died. Just because I can understand something does not mean that I agree with it.

I certainly don't blindly follow everything and consider everything be cultural.

Good.

You're stepping into extreme moral grounds bringing up genital mutilation, gang rape, etc. I don't know anyone who would even joke about any of that.

I have no problems with confroting such issues face to face, and who mentioned the joke.? Did I miss the man cracking fantastic jokes about these issues.? Or did I miss something else............ Do you NOT consider such things as "cultural".?

That's just incredibly judgmental.

As I have not quoted the bit before the bit quoted above, the above quote of yours may have lost all of its meaning. At least that is all I can presume as its a strange way to finish off a post that really has nothing to say at all, feel free to elaborate on any of my points.


Andy

[NeilBlanchard]

This is turning into a complaint session -- please stay on topic, or cease posting to this thread...

[/moderator's hat]

[aristide1]

Mankind needs to get a real hobby:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/ ... 0_ST_N.htm

I will never understand what's wrong with people.

[Ralf Hutter]

Mankind needs to get a real hobby

Like this one?

[frenchie]

torturing animals = no, big no ! animals DO suffer
saving a person = yes (a person is a person, no matter how stupid ; and that's a good thing : imagine if doctors had the right to use their moral judgment before healing someone !!! )

[aristide1]

Judge you have a PM.

[tim851]

Well, a Bullfighter being gored is not just poetic justice, it is also part of the profession.

This whole "let him die"-argument is bananas, though.

Next thing you know we'll have a group of Vegans here who demand that Meat Eaters should be exempt from medical treatments...

[WARDOZER9]

Well, a Bullfighter being gored is not just poetic justice, it is also part of the profession.

This whole "let him die"-argument is bananas, though.

Next thing you know we'll have a group of Vegans here who demand that Meat Eaters should be exempt from medical treatments...

It's human nature to eat meat thus making your Vegan statement absurd. It is not however human nature to torture animals for entertainment.

I'll say it again, if the bull was unharmed or unaltered in any way and was not bred for the purpose of bullfighting and the Matador was without weapons and only had his little red flag to distract the bull, it is human nature to dominate nature and under those circumstances the bullfighter would be a respectable person showing off the intelligence and will to conquer that is what makes up what we are.

I am a hunter, I use rifles to kill deer but I do not let them suffer if I can help it and I never mount thier heads or display their remains. If I shoot a deer and it is not a fatal shot I will track the deer down as quickly as possible ( which I do anyways if it doesn't drop right there ) and put it out of it's missery, I won't sit there watching it gasp for air and I sure as hell won't poke it with a stick.

[tim851]

It's human nature to eat meat thus making your Vegan statement absurd.

That's not the Vegan point of view! My analogy remains valid and your reply is uniformed and absurd.

It is not however human nature to torture animals for entertainment.

Why not? We do it. A lot.

It might not be "natural", but neither is you hunting with a rifle. But being cruel seems to be very much Human Nature, seeing as a lot of people wish cruel things upon the matador for being cruel.

[aristide1]

On the other hand:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/37699499/ ... hersports/

[Michael Sandstrom]

If Bullfighters had any balls they might be as brave as rodeo clowns who sit at a card table calmly playing poker while being charged by an enraged bull. The average American cowboy is ten times tougher than any fancy pants Bullfighter!

[judge56988]

If Bullfighters had any balls they might be as brave as rodeo clowns who sit at a card table calmly playing poker while being charged by an enraged bull. The average American cowboy is ten times tougher than any Mexican or Spanish Bullfighter!

Spoken like a true American.