incandescent light bulb ban in ontario...

[mr. poopyhead]

also, southern ontario gets pretty hot in the summer... 30+ degrees on a bad day (which is nothing compared to AZ, i'm assuming). so your heating plan kinda backfires in the summer.

You don't exactly need lights on in the middle of the day in July...

i'm guessing you haven't lived in shabby student housing with no windows?

[andyb]

I am going to replace all of he bulbs in my house with CFL's as and when they break, as I dont see any point in throwing them away (landfill) until they are broken, and it will cost more in petrol taking the bulbs to be recycled than they cost.

My main concern for using CFL's is not directly for the environment, but for my Electric bill, in the same way as my 24x7 PC uses <40W.

According to research in the UK, something like 20% of the Electric bill can be saved by turning off devices on standby, and 15% can be saved by using CFL's, I intend to do both.

As far as knee-jerk reactions are concerned the B-Liar government are as bad as any, yes recycling and energy reduction is good, but the motives are bad. This is now a big political weapon and is being wielded as such. The other reason why the government is so in-touch with its green side is that they have spotted a new tax bracket.

Forget Canada and Oz baning incandecant bulbs, in the UK we will be being taxed more for pollution, enery wasting, not recycling etc etc

I can understand some of the taxes, such as massive road tax for Wasteful SUV's and sports cars, but a huge percentage of cars will soon fall into the top bracket.


Andy

[Reachable]

Somebody in Ontario isn't thinking this through very well. In northern climates like that incandescents may actually be more environmentally friendly than CF's, mainly because they are less efficient.

Here's my logic:

The stated reason why CF's are greener than incand's is that they waste less electricity in producing the same amount of light. But, that extra electricity isn't really "wasted"...its converted to heat. In northern climates you are much more likely to be heating your home than cooling it. That extra heat energy from the incand bulbs reduces the demand on heating sytems. And since electricity is much more likely to be produced from "green" sources such as hydro or wind than the sources of the energy used for heating is, which is likely to be NG, propane, or oil in Ontario, you are actually better off, environmentally speaking, using more electricity to heat your house.

That's totally spot on! It needs to be considered.

Here in Massachusetts the heating season is 9 months long, and on practically every day during that period (and even some beyond) the heat put out by appliances is most welcome. Most of Canada is at least as cold as is Massachusetts.

On the days that do require air conditioning the daylight hours are so long that there's hardly any need to use light bulbs. After about 9PM is the only time. And up north in northern Canada there would be "midnight sun".

So seriously, before this kind of a ban extends further, there should be some calculations done.

The poorer quality of the light put out by CFLs needs to be considered, also. If it turns out that their use actually would lead to a significant environmental improvement then we can live with it. Otherwise it would be a needless degradation of the ambient environment.

[Rusty075]

Thanks Reachable...See, I'm not totally off my rocker.

The heat load from electrical equipment, including lighting, is a factor that goes into the HVAC equipment sizing calc for every building. I brought this up with an ME consultant that I know from work, and his thoughts were that without doing the real math that he would guess in a "Zone 1" climate like Ontario switching from all-incand's to all-CF's might result in as much as a 10% increase in the amount of heat you'd have to be providing in the winter time.

As an architect, I hate the idea of having to use all fluorescent lighting everywhere. If they really wanted to help save the environment there's better ways of mandating greener buildings. They could require that all new construction use daylighting for X% of their lighting during the day, or revise the building codes to require that all new buildings be LEED Certified. Some local and state governments here are talking about requiring LEED Silver or Gold for all new government buildings.

[qviri]

i'm guessing you haven't lived in shabby student housing with no windows?

I have actually - not during the summer, though. (Waking up in a basement in February is not fun. I like to blame it for my marks this term.)

And up north in northern Canada there would be "midnight sun".

Something like 95% of Ontario's population lives within 100 km of the U.S. border, so that's not really a concern for the Ontario lawmakers. Not to mention the midnight sun in vast majority of the terroritory where it does occur is not bright enough for common household tasks.

Let's be realistic here: this is a populistic law for political purposes. If they really wanted to do something, they'd regulate the urban sprawl producing the McMansions and the cookie-cutter crap being spawned in the Greater Toronto Area, or stop pouring money into widening Highway 401 to a zillion lanes and spend some of it on rail infrastructure, or require all public institutions to have motion detectors shut off lights when not necessary, or...

[mr. poopyhead]

If they really wanted to do something, they'd regulate the urban sprawl producing the McMansions and the cookie-cutter crap being spawned in the Greater Toronto Area, or stop pouring money into widening Highway 401 to a zillion lanes and spend some of it on rail infrastructure, or require all public institutions to have motion detectors shut off lights when not necessary, or...

urban sprawl? cookie cutter houses? [raises hand] yep... that's where i live... mississauga, ontario. i used to worship mayor hazel mccallion. but in the last few years i've come to realize that although we are one of the best run cities in canada (at least financially) i think she really dropped the ball on the whole urban planning thing. that's why they call her the queen of sprawl. that's why mississauga is now one of the rootin'est, tootin'est, pollutin'est cities in southern ontario. worse than hamilton... people are chained to their cars in this city. can't get anywhere without a car around here, and it's constant gridlock.... i work about 5km from my house. the transit is so bad here that riding the bus takes the same amount of time as walking home....

but that's a thread for another day...

[seangoesbonk]

... no one recycles incandescents, but not recycling CFLs is significantly more harmful, at least at this point. I have not known what to do with the dead CFLs -- they are just sitting in a box. I need to find out if I can take them back to where I bought them at least. Vancouver city itself has no recycling option for CFLs, their phone hotline person just told me I could dump them in the garbage.

Hi Mike! Long time, no see!

I was looking into this issue a couple of months back and I found this list of CFL recycling locations in the GVRD and on the island:
http://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/elibr ... 40640.html

[Devonavar]

Yeech. You Mississaugans have my profound sympathy. A two day visit was all it took to give me a newfound appreciation for my own city. Is there anything there except strip malls, big boxes and highways?

[MikeC]

Hi Mike! Long time, no see!

I was looking into this issue a couple of months back and I found this list of CFL recycling locations in the GVRD and on the island:
http://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/elibr ... 40640.html

Hi Sean,

Yes, I found that link too. I emailed Vanc. city hall about it and now they have this info on their web site... on help desk.

[qviri]

I came across an article in the Globe and Mail two days ago. This is interesting because it's the other side of the story: we are concerned about the climate, and we want "them" do something, but we are not really interested in being majorly inconvenienced ourselves. Is this a result of too much finger-pointing at the evil industries?

Another point that was raised: when you do have to buy a car, you need a subcompact at least. You can't buy a Matiz, a Ka or a Seicento/Nuova 500 in this country, even in the largest cities. It's a subcompact, then a style-oriented overpriced MINI, then an even more overpriced Smart Fortwo. That Pontiac Wave car weighs a tonne; a Seicento weighs 750 kg...

[~El~Jefe~]

Er.

this trend is really annoying.

incandescent bulbs do not flicker. cfls do. incandescent bulbs output solar spectrum of light. cfl's put out crap light. incandescents are pleasant and natural to use anywhere in the house. I really dont give a crap about more electricity. my bulb use is not the problem. allowing corporations to grossly misuse and waste energy and resources as they are "commercial" is the problem. I will never give them up and will always find a way to purchase them.

The only other bulb I would consider is a full spectrum (no holes within the spectrum, not even one dip) version of LED lighting. these can be pleasant and even warm if you so design. flourescents are built for cheap businesses who try to penny pinch while wasting billions in other areas. I run my own business, I banned the use of flourescent lighting! must use either led or incandescent. Psychotherapy and research business. it makes people happier and more relaxed.

someone will say that the hz on the cfls is greatly increased. I say ok so what, its still not flicker free. some will say then that cfls hz range is out of visible limits. It is not, not to all parts of the eye and human perception, no t in the least. even a 150hz comp monitor can easily be perceived.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Compact fluorescent bulbs do not flicker! I know they do actually, but the frequency is much higher than can be seen.

Compact fluorescent bulbs put out different color temperature light; depending on what bulb you use! I am partial to the "daylight" full spectrum in some situations, and in others the warm (low color temp) bulbs are very close to incandescent.

I've tried some LED's and so far I have not found one that is satifactorily bright enough, and that is warm enough color -- they are very blue; or at least the bulbs that I have tried are. And several are maddenly dim.

You're right as far as waste in other areas: air conditioning is a huge part of electrical consumption, and transmitting power over long distances is just dumb. We should use local generation methods, at or very near the site of use -- to avoid at least 50% of the wasted power that we now tolerate.

[dragmor]

incandescent bulbs do not flicker. cfls do. incandescent bulbs output solar spectrum of light. cfl's put out crap light. incandescents are pleasant and natural to use anywhere in the house. I really dont give a crap about more electricity. my bulb use is not the problem. allowing corporations to grossly misuse and waste energy and resources as they are "commercial" is the problem. I will never give them up and will always find a way to purchase them.

Its funny I find that the yellow colour of incandescents to be unnatural. They remind me of candles. Natural light where I live is tinged blue, not as much as the cheap flurosenets (not CFLs) that most business use which give off a cold light but most CFLs seem to give a more natural light than the traditional bulbs.

On my 220hz electricty I dont notice any flicker from the CFLs I use. It's obviously there but its past my threshold.

[Beyonder]

While I agree with the overall tone of the Original Poster, this:

personally, i think this is one of those things that...is really just a PR move to capitalize on this whole climate change craze.

...I don't buy.

A Public Relations campaign implies that someone is trying to change the public's opinions on some topic, but from what I understand, Canadians as a whole are already pretty open to the idea of global warming and reducing power demands. Why would this policy be introduced as a public relations move if Canadians as a whole are environmentally inclined? And if we were to assume that Canadians as a whole were unconcerned with global warming, how would a law like this change their mind?

Admittedly, I'm not Canadian, and I know little about the political climate of Canada. So from my limited perspective, this doesn't sound like a public relations stunt.

[Reachable]

A conventional incandescent bulb does not put out a natural sunlight spectrum. Its light, however, is vastly more pleasant than your standard fluorescent office tube.

Interestingly, though, what was first developed to address the incandescents' shortcomings was a fluorescent tube. There are also now incandescent bulbs that have a more natural spectrum. These are made by specialty manufacturers. The big manufacturers' labels such as "daylight" are not the real thing.

The article linked to by the OP oversimplified the contrast between the two types of lights.

In all honesty, if all the incandescent bulbs had to be replaced by the type of CFs that are in my home it would make only a negligible difference in the quality of light. I'd be disappointed, though, if I could no longer get the special natural spectrum incandescents that I also use.

[AZBrandon]

I can't stand the yellow/amber color that incandescents have. That's why I use 5000 - 5500K CFL's in my house. I hate having everything look red, which is what you get with standard incandescent bulbs. I see that websites like this one advertize "full spectrum" bulbs that say they filter out "much" of the yellow cast, but I still have my doubts. I like the color temperature of all my CFL's, don't observe any flicker from them, and they slightly reduce the waste heat and power consumption of my home, while having a lifespan 5-10 times as long as incandescents. This is great for those hard-to-reach light fixtures.

[Felger Carbon]

The Washington Post has an article today in Section A about the "wife factor" of the new bulbs. Wives don't like them. They like the warm yellow glow of incadescent bulbs. Even wives who are environmental activists won't buy the flourescent replacements.

[jaganath]

the "wife factor" of the new bulbs. Wives don't like them. They like the warm yellow glow of incadescent bulbs. Even wives who are environmental activists won't buy the flourescent replacements

Ditto for massive planet-destroying SUVs; these make women feel "safe", even though they are no safer than normal saloons (some studies show they are actually less safe due to high center of gravity and poor handling/braking).

what I don't get though, is why CFL mfrs don't just change the phosphors inside the tube to give a more natural light gamut? there's no physical law that says CFLs have to put out sickly, bluish light.

[mr. poopyhead]

the "wife factor" of the new bulbs. Wives don't like them. They like the warm yellow glow of incadescent bulbs. Even wives who are environmental activists won't buy the flourescent replacements

Ditto for massive planet-destroying SUVs; these make women feel "safe", even though they are no safer than normal saloons (some studies show they are actually less safe due to high center of gravity and poor handling/braking).

let's also add in old-men-in-mid-life-crisis driving 12 cylinder monsters to that list so that we don't look like a bunch of sexists here,

[nici]

Im not trying to derail the thread, but assuming two vehicles are just as safe when driven into a solid and stationary object, one is a normal hatch that weighs 1500kg and the other is a suv that weighs 3000kg, the passengers in the 1500kg car will suffer twice the amount of force compared to the 3000kg car if they collide with eachother. Then again if two 1500kg cars collided it would be "better" than two 3000kg cars.

And no one should need a study to understand that active safety on a tall and heavy vehicle is worse than a low and light vehicle. Like the weight thing it's basic physics..

As for lights, i hate any light i can see directly. It makes me see rainbow colours. I have my table light behind my monitor for example, so it reflects the light from the wall. makes it much more pleasant. It's one of those thingies that are supposed to mimic sunlight to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside during the depressing, miserable and dark months leading to winter. no idea if it works as advertised or not or not but it was rather expensive ten years ago and it still works.

I also have a 300W incandescent bulb in the garage, though i don't want to use it because its something like forty years old and i don't want to break it. It's about 25cm long and 10cm in diameter, and very bright. i tried it once.

As for the rest of the house, it's mostly halogen spots on dimmers.

edited for stupidity.

[jaganath]

assuming two vehicles are just as safe when driven into a solid and stationary object, one is a normal hatch that weighs 1500kg and the other is a suv that weighs 3000kg, the passengers in the 1500kg car will suffer twice the amount of force compared to the heavier car

huh? if both vehicles are travelling at the same speed when they hit the stationary object, passengers in either car will experience the same decelerating force.

[nici]

Oops, waht i meant to say if they collide with eachother the heavier car is the safer one even if they are equally safe when driven into a stationary object..

[AZBrandon]

what I don't get though, is why CFL mfrs don't just change the phosphors inside the tube to give a more natural light gamut? there's no physical law that says CFLs have to put out sickly, bluish light.

CFL's can be had in any color range you want. I've seen as red as 2500K or as white/blue as 6500K. The 2700K bulbs are very common and from what I've seen make up a good 60% of the market. It's been harder IMHO to find 5000+K bulbs, which are the only kind I personally buy. It's no trouble at all to find all the 2700K CFL's you want though. Give your skin that nice rosy color at all times.

[andyb]

CPC sell CFL's in 2700K and 4000K temperatures, but as they have the best range I have seen in the UK this is pretty crap if you want anything else.

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/search/brows ... t=cfl&Ntx=

They do loads more but their website sucks balls.

I did a quick google, and most companies only sell 2700K.



Andy

[AZBrandon]

http://www.topbulb.com is where I've ordered all of mine. I've had probably 8 different orders with them in the last 18 months. My only complaint is they take forever to ship orders. I had one where they finally told me it wasn't even in stock and would be another week, but every time they've at least sent me the items eventually and never charged extra for when they broke it into two or three separate shipments.

[gr8r-x]

I've got 4 CFL's in my home at the moment. 1 in lounge room, as well as a 3-lamp hanging unit (all incand.), which uses an adjustable switch (more on later), 1 in kitchen, and 2 in each of the kids rooms. The light from them is an obvious yellow, compared to std. incand's they replaced.

I'm happy with them. Especially in the middle of the night; they offer a kind of "soft" on. Light gets brighter the longer it's left on. Instead of the "ah crap turn that light off" reaction from incand.

Couple of notes though;
1. You can't use CFL's in adjustable light switches. None of the ones I've used anyway. And there is a warning on the box when you buy them about such. They basically flicker like mad, even when full.
2. Breakage. From what I can understand this is a BIG problem. 5mg+ mercury per globe. Not fun to clean up, or cheap. Read an article yesterday detailing that it cost $2k+ to get safely cleaned up. It is a toxic substance after all.
3. Aside from the adj. light switches, I've NEVER seen a CFL flicker. Maybe all you stuck in 115V range have a difference in frequency as well. Here in AU, I'm happy with them.

As for the color range issue; it's already been said, you can get them in different ranges. Same as fluro's. For some stupid reason, here at work I have 1 set of fluro's that are "daylight" [read: white], whilst ALL the other fluro's are yellow.. At least it's easy for people to find my desk. And at home, in the fish tank, I have a specific aquarium fluro; again in the "daylight" range.[/list]

[dragmor]

1. You can't use CFL's in adjustable light switches. None of the ones I've used anyway. And there is a warning on the box when you buy them about such. They basically flicker like mad, even when full.

There are dimmable CFL's. The german company Megaman makes good ones and I've seen them for sale at some hardware stores.

2. Breakage. From what I can understand this is a BIG problem. 5mg+ mercury per globe. Not fun to clean up, or cheap. Read an article yesterday detailing that it cost $2k+ to get safely cleaned up. It is a toxic substance after all.

The mecury is a problem, but my local council is accepting them for recycling now. Also they seem less likely to shatter than the old bulbs.

[Rider]

Does anyone know where dimmable CFL's are available in the USA? Thanks

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

You can find them online:
http://www.buylighting.com/Dimmable-Com ... -s/113.htm

[AZBrandon]

Hello,

You can find them online:
http://www.buylighting.com/Dimmable-Com ... -s/113.htm

I'll have to try them next time. I placed my order from TopBulb on April 25th and my credit card was charged on April 25th. My order shipped today, May 3rd. No explanation as to why they took my money and then sat on it a week before boxing up my 4 light bulbs for shipment. Like I said earlier, I have always gotten my orders, they've never outright scammed me, but I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling from places that take your money and sit on it for a while before shipping your product. I'll have to try the buylighting place for my next order.