Connecting to unsecured wireless - Crime or Free Internet?

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nick705
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Post by nick705 » Mon May 28, 2007 2:51 pm

Max Slowik wrote:nick705
From what I understand of American society, such behaviour would be inviting a bullet between the eyes, backed up by the full weight of the law.
Well, that's stereotypical and totally inaccurate; up until recently, and still in rural places, it's perfectly reasonable to ask to stay the night or share dinner with complete strangers, ask for a ride, whatever. But that is neither here nor there.
Well, it is here or there - my emboldening makes all the difference, don't you think? (as opposed to "taking without asking")
Max Slowik wrote: (By the way, did you know that the UK has a higher murder rate than the US? It's all bats and knives. . .)
No, that's news to me. Do you have a link to the relevant statistics?
Max Slowik wrote: This is a bad analogy, because you don't live in your router. Your computer doesn't either; it's more like leaving something of marginal value on the sidewalk. It's not right for someone to pick it up and take it, but, then again, it's not at all illegal.
Whether it's of "marginal" value or not is immaterial, and the fact that someone doesn't have the technical savvy to secure their wireless network doesn't mean they're knowingly and willingly leaving it open to all and sundry. Someone who hacks into the network, on the other hand, knows exactly what they're doing.

qviri
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Post by qviri » Mon May 28, 2007 3:00 pm

Max Slowik wrote:Your computer doesn't either; it's more like leaving something of marginal value on the sidewalk. It's not right for someone to pick it up and take it, but, then again, it's not at all illegal.
Yet another analogy. Say your neighbour has a lamp in his backyard that also shines into your backyard. You do not mind it.

One evening you host a party and grill under the light from that lamp.

He obviously paid for the electricity to run that lamp. He also could have directed it elsewhere or turned it off, but didn't.

Are you stealing your neighbour's light?

jaganath
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Post by jaganath » Mon May 28, 2007 3:38 pm

Max Slowik wrote:

(By the way, did you know that the UK has a higher murder rate than the US?
Not according to this:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

US is #24, UK is #46.

nick705
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Post by nick705 » Mon May 28, 2007 4:18 pm

jaganath wrote: Not according to this:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

US is #24, UK is #46.
I was just looking at that, but it's a bit out of date (1998-2000 figures). It's quite hard to find figures covering similar recent time periods, but here's a few:

England & Wales 2005/06: 765 (includes 52 in July 7th bombings)

Scotland 2005/06: 93 (rose to 120 in 2006/07)

N. Ireland 2005/06: 25



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... ders_x.htm

New York 2006: 579

Philadelphia 2006: 403

Los Angeles... Houston... Cincinnati... Chicago... Oakland... oh well, you get the picture. As you were, gentlemen. :)

scdr
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Post by scdr » Mon May 28, 2007 7:23 pm

Elixer wrote:
The problem with the arguement that you have a 'right' to all of the radio waves on your property is that there is no reasonable way for your neightbor to prevent his radio waves from coming onto your property. With a well aimed 24Dbi directional antenna you can literally pick up and use wireless connections from miles away.
Here in the United States use of much of the Radio spectrum is
regulated by the government. There are requirements that users of
the spectrum not interfere with each-other. (e.g. limits on power, etc.)
In some of the unlicensed bands, as I understand it, the individual user is responsible for making sure that their use not interfere with other users.

So it isn't so much a right to the radio spectrum on your property, but
there is a responsibility to not interfere with others.

As to how to do that - there are lots of ways. Take the approach you mention (in reverse) and use a less powerful antenna. Use a directional antenna. Use less powerful broadcasts. Change to different frequencies. Stop broadcasting, etc.

Another way to look at the matter of who is at fault, that I was getting towards in my previous post, but hadn't thought of in these terms.

One might also be liable for an unsecured wireless connection as improper maintenance of an attractive nuisance.
e.g. If you have a swimming pool in your yard, and somebody trespasses
to use the pool, and hurts themselves - you can be held responsible.
Even if they were using it without your consent. You have to put up some
reasonable protection around it to prevent unauthorized use.
(e.g. if you can show that you put a fence around the pool, but they
cut the lock off the gate, then it is their blame. But you have to have
put some reasonable precautions in place to prevent public access.)
Since many regard free access to information and communications as potentially hazardous. (Witness parental internet filters, censorship, book burning, ...) It seems reasonable to assume that an unsecured wireless connection might constitute improper maintenance of an attractive nuisance. So if your neighbor has your kid arrested for using their wireless network, one might counter that the their unsecured network contributed to the kid to dropping out of school by allowing their continued addiction to World of Warcraft.
Just a thought.

andyb
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Post by andyb » Tue May 29, 2007 2:38 am

Max Slowik your idea that we have a higher murder rate than the US is very distorted.

As chance would happen I watched "Bowling For Columbine" a few days ago and was shocked, but not surprised at the US murder rate "with guns".

The US murder rate in 2005 was 0.0056 percent.

The UK murder rate in 2005 was 0.0013 percent.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page40.asp

A bit of help from Excel gave me those numbers, but here is a hard hiting one for you, the average murder rate in the US is 4.43 times higher than the murder rate in the UK.


Andy

klankymen
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Post by klankymen » Tue May 29, 2007 8:12 am

qviri wrote:
Max Slowik wrote:Your computer doesn't either; it's more like leaving something of marginal value on the sidewalk. It's not right for someone to pick it up and take it, but, then again, it's not at all illegal.
Yet another analogy. Say your neighbour has a lamp in his backyard that also shines into your backyard. You do not mind it.

One evening you host a party and grill under the light from that lamp.

He obviously paid for the electricity to run that lamp. He also could have directed it elsewhere or turned it off, but didn't.

Are you stealing your neighbour's light?
good analogy, I agree.

nick705
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Post by nick705 » Tue May 29, 2007 9:37 am

klankymen wrote:
qviri wrote: Yet another analogy. Say your neighbour has a lamp in his backyard that also shines into your backyard. You do not mind it.

One evening you host a party and grill under the light from that lamp.

He obviously paid for the electricity to run that lamp. He also could have directed it elsewhere or turned it off, but didn't.

Are you stealing your neighbour's light?
good analogy, I agree.
Not really - you're not costing your neighbour anything by using his light, unless you switch it on without his knowledge or permission when he's not there (and in any case, if you regularly make use of his facilities it would be common courtesy to offer something towards the running costs).

If you use some else's wireless network without their knowledge, how do you know they haven't already used 49.75GB of a 50GB monthly download allowance? Suppose the victim thinks the slow speeds they're experiencing as a result of your pr0n downloading are due to network contention at the ISP or exchange level, and they end up unnecessarily paying extra to upgrade to a faster or less contended package?

Obviously it all depends how much bandwidth you (and any other freeloaders) are taking up, and one person occasionally checking emails or whatever is unlikely to hurt much in practice, but that still doesn't give you the right to help yourself, without asking, as and when you feel like it.

qviri
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Post by qviri » Tue May 29, 2007 9:54 am

nick705 wrote:Not really - you're not costing your neighbour anything by using his light
In normal conditions, you are not costing your wireless host anything either. Most people with broadband do not pay per megabyte (fees for exceeding transfer limits excepted).
(and in any case, if you regularly make use of his facilities it would be common courtesy to offer something towards the running costs).
I'm not talking about regular use here.
If you use some else's wireless network without their knowledge, how do you know they haven't already used 49.75GB of a 50GB monthly download allowance?
I don't. It is, however, extremely unlikely as a) normal users are unlikely to hit any kind of transfer limit, and b) people who do come close to their limit are likely to be aware of that and put a restriction on their wireless network.
Suppose the victim thinks the slow speeds they're experiencing as a result of your pr0n downloading
I'm talking about checking e-mail, not pr0n, not haxing, not warez, not bittorrent... do I need to go on?

nzimmers
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Post by nzimmers » Thu May 31, 2007 6:39 pm

my neighbor must have recently picked up a new router....never saw it before in the casual scans - it's open , no authentication. infact, typing in the access point IP address and bingo - WRT54GS login screen (I happen to have a few of these)


what strikes me is that someone could do SOOO much damage in this kind of scenario, more than just acess the internet, but the other PC's on the LAN and control the port forwarding, etc...... I could host a website or I could use it to send death threats, it's insane just how bad a open wifi access point could be for the owner.

the vast majority of people have no concept of wireless security, how can the courts hold them responsible?

if someone steals my car because I forgot to lock the doors and then runs down children in a school yard, am I responsible? what someone else does with property of mine that they stole is not responsibility, even if I was a bonehead, yet having an open wifi connection is not a defense it seems.

now...how do I figure out which neighbor of mine has the open router? is it my responsibility to tell them? should I help them secure it? since it's already wide open I suspect they wouldn't care if I told them, they would just leave it open anyways

miahallen
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my 2 cents

Post by miahallen » Thu May 31, 2007 9:45 pm

tehfire wrote:On the home front, I think things are a bit different. Yes, it is in essence free, but it can be equated to a neighbor walking into your garage to use your hammer. Just because it's there doesn't mean that it's there for anybody to use. You have paid for it, so you alone have the "rights" to use the item. If you want to give it to people to use, by all means go ahead, but saying "no harm, no foul" isn't exactly bulletproof.

Just like the hammer, you should ask the owner's permission before you use it.
I think this is a good analogy for wired networking....trespassing on someones property to plug in....it's obviously wrong.

However, what if you see a hammer lying in a ditch on the side of the road, on public property. If you pick it up and take it home are you stealing it? Is it theft? Some people might say yes....I SAY NO! Now, if somebody's name is inscribed in the side of the hammer, that would be different....that would be theft.

In the same way, if wireless signal is unsecured, and accessible to a stranger on public property, have at it (they didn't inscribed their name on it)...it's up for grabs. If it's encrypted...they've claimed it for themselves and stealing that would be a crime.

floffe
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Post by floffe » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:40 am

nzimmers wrote:now...how do I figure out which neighbor of mine has the open router? is it my responsibility to tell them? should I help them secure it? since it's already wide open I suspect they wouldn't care if I told them, they would just leave it open anyways
Well, if it still has the default router password you could login and rename the wireless network to "[whatever it's called now] - SECURE ME NOW". Can't do much more, really, at least if you live in a building with a bunch of apartments. Or you could put up a note in the stair or somewhere people will see it.

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