My outlets aren't grounded, how bad is this?

lowsat · Post by **lowsat** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:23 pm

I just had an electrician come through due to an unrelated issue and he revealed that all but one of the outlets in my apartment don't have a working ground. This includes the one I have had my computer and some recording gear plugged into for the past 6 months (some of it 1 year).

How bad is this? Will it cause my PSU / other stuff to go bad quicker? Or since it didn't explode right away am I pretty much ok?

All advice is welcome. Or if you know any links that talk about this more in depth that would be great.

aaa · Post by **aaa** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:02 pm

It's more of a fire hazard I would think. I've had computers zap me when they weren't grounded as well.

Firetech · Post by **Firetech** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:09 pm

lowsat wrote:How bad is this? Will it cause my PSU / other stuff to go bad quicker? Or since it didn't explode right away am I pretty much ok?

Bad IMO.
If I were you I'd be more concerned about my life expectancy than the life of my 'stuff'!
Have a Google on electrical safety (here's a start) and get that electrician back to fix the problem - pronto.

NyteOwl · Post by **NyteOwl** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:13 pm

Note that to operate properly any surge protectors (power bars, ups, etc) require a proper functioning ground. Any warraty they may have to replace attached equipment if they fail is void if they aren't properly grounded.

Simialrly a proper ground is necessary for safe operation of many items. As said above, my first priority would be my own safety. Time for a chat with the landlord.

Tephras · Post by **Tephras** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:15 pm

Or if you know any links that talk about this more in depth that would be great.

Here's some info:
grounding outlets for computer equipment
Power Quality and Your Computer

Bories36 · Post by **Bories36** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:30 pm

None of the outlets in my house are grounded and we've NEVER had any problems what so ever. Just don't use any expensive electronics during a lighting storm, have them unplugged.

Firetech · Post by **Firetech** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:01 pm

Bories36 wrote:None of the outlets in my house are grounded and we've NEVER had any problems what so ever. Just don't use any expensive electronics during a lighting storm, have them unplugged.

It entirely depends on the electrical system of the country you are in (some don't have an earth pin)
If your home has 3 pin sockets, they should be earthed.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:01 pm

Ok....I'd suggest getting a little plug-in device with lights that will tell you if the outlets are properly wired/grounded. They are cheap....

If you are stuck with un-grounded outlets.....here's one thing possible to do. Get a single wire attached to a cold water pipe. Run that wire to a surge suppressor strip......attach that one wire to the green (in the USA) wire in the surge strip. You can now plug into the wall outlet, and you will get the ground through the water pipe (copper pipe only).

Here's another "fix"......since the white(neutral) wire and the green (ground) wire are connected together in the service box, if you splice the green and white wire together in the extension wire to the surge suppressor, the surge suppressor will be grounded. Of course this is not code, but it works.

I've never heard a good explanation of why this is a bad idea. If you check the surge strip after this little mod....it will check electrically ok. Don't tell anybody I told you about this little mod.

Firetech · Post by **Firetech** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:21 pm

Bluefront wrote:If you are stuck with un-grounded outlets.....here's one thing possible to do. Get a single wire attached to a cold water pipe. Run that wire to a surge suppressor strip......attach that one wire to the green (in the USA) wire in the surge strip. You can now plug into the wall outlet, and you will get the ground through the water pipe (copper pipe only).

That would fix his other potentially hazardous sockets will it?

Here's another "fix"......since the white(neutral) wire and the green (ground) wire are connected together in the service box, if you splice the green and white wire together in the extension wire to the surge suppressor, the surge suppressor will be grounded. Of course this is not code, but it works.

That depends on the system used back at the supply transformer, doesn't it? Some systems ground neutral to earth at the transformer and others don't. You may wish to research that before attempting it in your particular country.

I've never heard a good explanation of why this is a bad idea. If you check the surge strip after this little mod....it will check electrically ok. Don't tell anybody I told you about this little mod.

Yeah, you wouldn't want called to a coroners court would you

Bories36 · Post by **Bories36** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:47 pm

I dont have 3 pin outlets only 2. But for some reason We've never had any problems, I even asked my parents who have lived here for 20years.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:56 pm

Firetech...In that post I did mention USA. I don't know about anywhere else. The cold water pipe mod supplies a ground to the surge strip, which is what we're looking for.

The second mod uses the neutral wire as a ground. Assuming the wires are of sufficient gage, just what is the problem...other than code? Answer that...I'm curious.

spookmineer · Post by **spookmineer** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:27 pm

The only grounded outlets in my home are in my kitchen.

In the 12 years I lived here, I never had a problem (this ofcourse doesn't mean it's perfectly safe, maybe I've just been lucky - on the other hand, the house just doesn't have any grounded outlets in the living room).

Firetech · Post by **Firetech** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:43 pm

Bluefront wrote:The second mod uses the neutral wire as a ground. Assuming the wires are of sufficient gage, just what is the problem...other than code? Answer that...I'm curious.

Hi Bluefront, not doubting your idea would work in some circmstances but unfortunately not all.
The problem comes as the system relies on the type of earth provided by the distribution network (apologies but my old college text books are in another country or I'd quote the exact types but this may help explain my thinking).
If the earth conductor has been 'lost' somewhere, there is the possibility that the neutral wire is not in fact at Earth potential and therefore you do not see a full 'grounding' effect. I've seen situations where the neutral conductor is 20v or more higher than earth potential.

The OP really should speak to the electrician again and get this investigated further. Obviously said electrician will know the situation for Canada and be able to advise an appropriate course of action.

I personally would avoid 'quick fixes' and go for a 'full fix' instead. Then again, maybe the OP doesn't have a family and likes to live dangerously

Trekmeister · Post by **Trekmeister** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:46 pm

Bluefront wrote: If you are stuck with un-grounded outlets.....here's one thing possible to do. Get a single wire attached to a cold water pipe. Run that wire to a surge suppressor strip......attach that one wire to the green (in the USA) wire in the surge strip. You can now plug into the wall outlet, and you will get the ground through the water pipe (copper pipe only).

This will work, kind of... I used it to get rid of some interference in my old flat, but I was advised against it by a friend who is an electrician.
Since the ground/neutral of the house might be on a different potential from the earth ground of your radiator, apparently this can cause problems with galvanic corrosion and stuff in the heating system.
Additionaly, it is not guaranteed that the phase <-> earth ground connection will have a low enough resistance to trip the fuse in case of a short circuit. (maybe with a ground fault interruptor, not sure about those).

Here's another "fix"......since the white(neutral) wire and the green (ground) wire are connected together in the service box, if you splice the green and white wire together in the extension wire to the surge suppressor, the surge suppressor will be grounded. Of course this is not code, but it works.

I don't know how the plugs in the us looks, but at least in Sweden you can plug it into a socket in two different ways by turning it 180 degrees. Doing it like you describe it would give you a 50% risk of making the computer case become live here in Sweden!
On the other hand, if you can only insert the plugs in one orientation, and you are 100% sure that the neutral is always the same peg, it should be "safe". But I would still recommend against it.

Edit:
For the OP:
As long as you have no problems with the ungrounded plugs it should not really matter. Usually only buildings erected during the last 15 or 20 years in Sweden has all outlets grounded. Earlier only outlets in the kitchen and other wet rooms were required to be grounded and as far as I know that does not cause any problems.
If you absolutley want to, you can always run a long extension cord from the grounded outlet to your computer.

Firetech · Post by **Firetech** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:50 pm

Bluefront, I just noted this in the Regulations section of that Wiki link I gave:

* In residential and commercial installations in the U. S. and Canada, the feed from the distribution transformer uses a combined neutral and grounding conductor (two phase and one neutral, for three wires total), but within the structure separate neutral and protective earth conductors are used (TN-C-S). The neutral must be connected to the earth (ground) conductor only on the supply side of the customer's disconnecting switch. Additional connections of neutral to ground within the customer's wiring are prohibited.

* For wiring less than 1000 V, the United States National Electrical Code and Canadian electrical code forbid the use of systems that combine the grounding conductor and neutral beyond the customer's disconnecting switch.

That would appear to make your suggestion prohibited by the wiring code in US and Canada.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:08 pm

Hello,

In older residential wiring, the neutral (white) wire is also the ground, and it may be possible to wire in a 3-pin outlet to the two wires in the box -- by putting in a jumper from the ground to the neutral (white) wire. If you then use a tester ($5-6 at a decent hardware store), it should test as correct.

I have done this with success -- YMMV. Of course, it would be preferable to have an electrician to pull a 3-wire cable through from the outlet box to the breaker (fuse?) panel.

NyteOwl · Post by **NyteOwl** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:36 pm

Be very careful doing the first suggestion above. We put an extra outlet box in the basement and tried this for wiring the ground pin and the result (due to the way the 50 year old house was wired) resulted in a shower of sparks and a blown fuse.

Running a seperate ground lead solved the problem.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:02 pm

Ok...here's another reason to get a little outlet checker (cheap at any hardware store.) Your outlets may have the hot and neutral wires reversed at the wall socket if they don't have that third wire. In an AC system this won't cause much difficulty....everything plugged into the wall will work.

However...if you then add the third ground wire, you'll get a short, as the ground will be shorted to the hot wire in the service box. That's why getting an outlet checker is important......certainly check each outlet after doing any wiring changes, and before you plug anything in.

I still haven't heard any reason other than "it's code" for not connecting the neutral and ground wires outside the service box. This computer I'm typing on is in the bedroom....which has two-wire outlets. A ground was added by splicing the green and white wires together at the outlet. The house is solid masonry......rewiring this bedroom is next to impossible. This wiring mod at this outlet checks ok with the checker box, and the surge suppressor works normal, along with a UPS. Been this way for maybe ten years.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:13 am

And let me answer the OP. These computers we use can be ruined by a voltage surge at the wall socket. Surge suppressors of various kinds can prevent damage easily by shunting the surge to the ground wire. But they do not work unless the third wire is grounded....simple as that.

And to top it off.....many surge suppressors come with a damage guarantee. If they fail to protect your equipment, you will be reimbursed. I've never had to test this guarantee....but it's there.

The worst thing that ever happened to my equipment......a surge came in through the telephone line, which went through a surge suppressor. The suppressor was destroyed, but the modem and computer were saved. It pays to have a working ground circuit, and a surge suppressor on all your electronic equipment. Save those two-wire outlets for lamps.......

Firetech · Post by **Firetech** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:28 pm

Bluefront wrote:I still haven't heard any reason other than "it's code" for not connecting the neutral and ground wires outside the service box.

Sorry Bluefront, I thought the Safety section within that Earthing system link would be sufficient explanation?
Anyway, hope the OP gets it sorted out to his and his equipments satisfaction.
)6:30 and off to work...

Beyonder · Post by **Beyonder** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:45 pm

lowsat wrote: How bad is this? Will it cause my PSU / other stuff to go bad quicker? Or since it didn't explode right away am I pretty much ok?

All advice is welcome. Or if you know any links that talk about this more in depth that would be great.

He's probably talking about the third prong, which is a safety ground. I wouldn't say it's good, but there probably isn't any reason to panic. That said, the house wouldn't pass an inspection (I know; I just bought a house where someone installed the three prong outlets without hooking up the ground) and it's something that should really be fixed.

One thing you should talk to your landlord about is replacing them with GFCI plugs; it's a much cheaper way to retrofit existing plugs that don't have the safety ground. You can buy them at any hardware store, and replacing them should take a screw driver and about five minutes of your time (don't forget to flip the breaker before opening up your plugs).

A GFCI plug can also be wired to feed additional "downstream" outlets so that putting one GFCI receptacle in a circuit will protect all the plugs, lights and switches downstream from it.

truckman · Post by **truckman** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:03 pm

Bluefront wrote:I still haven't heard any reason other than "it's code" for not connecting the neutral and ground wires outside the service box. This computer I'm typing on is in the bedroom....which has two-wire outlets. A ground was added by splicing the green and white wires together at the outlet. The house is solid masonry......rewiring this bedroom is next to impossible. This wiring mod at this outlet checks ok with the checker box, and the surge suppressor works normal, along with a UPS. Been this way for maybe ten years.

This is very hazardous. If hot and neutral are swapped somewhere between the panel and the outlet, the computer case will be connected to the hot side of the circuit, which could prove lethal if you touch both the case and an external ground. In addition, this condition will *not* be detected by a simple three-prong outlet checker. Even if the polarity is correct, if the neutral side of the circuit ever fails open, the computer case will again be hot, though the impedance of the load will be in series with the path between the case and the hot supply. This is still likely to be a lethal situation.

lm · Post by lm » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:04 am

I haven't had grounded power outlets for any of my computers, stereos and etc for the last ten years, and none of my electronics failed on me, except for one floppy drive, and that probably doesn't have anything to do with grounding. However, if I touch the computer backside when it is on, I used to get small pulsing shocks with my old machine and a tiny occasional shock with another.

No current is supposed to flow through ground wire, so when there's flow over a certain threshold, it's a good reason to believe there's a very dangerous situation going on and cut some fuses automatically. I don't know how this is really implemented anywhere but it could be a reason.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:27 am

truckman......what you're saying is in this two wire circuit, modified at the outlet with the neutral and the ground wire connected, should the neutral wire to the service box fail, the case of the computer (for instance) might become "hot". This would only happen to components that used the third ground wire.

That makes sense, but is highly unlikely. Plus anything on that outlet would no longer work...giving you an indication there was a problem, and to start checking the wiring. This is a potential problem with that mod, but remote enough (for me) that I'm not worried. Lightening could also hit the house.

And I still cannot see why that cheap plug-in wiring checker.....won't work properly with this wiring mod.

psymanproductions · Post by **psymanproductions** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:37 am

this will not damage your equipment but it does make that chances higher of your equipment damaging you

get it fixed asap

in terms of safety ground is there so any stray current will go through the ground wire and into the ground its self.

if there is stray current and there is no wire to ground the current will go through the easiest route to ground if your unlucky you could be part of that shortest route. not pleseant

truckman · Post by **truckman** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:39 am

Bluefront wrote:truckman......what you're saying is in this two wire circuit, modified at the outlet with the neutral and the ground wire connected, should the neutral wire to the service box fail, the case of the computer (for instance) might become "hot". This would only happen to components that used the third ground wire.

Yes. Obviously, this wiring modification would not affect anything with a two wire cord.

Bluefront wrote:That makes sense, but is highly unlikely. Plus anything on that outlet would no longer work...giving you an indication there was a problem, and to start checking the wiring. This is a potential problem with that mod, but remote enough (for me) that I'm not worried. Lightening could also hit the house.

If the procedure for checking the wiring requires moving the computer out of the way before unplugging it, that will expose you to the shock hazard. There is also the possibility of a polarity reversal between the outlet and the panel, in which case everything would appear to be working properly, but everything with a metal case that should be grounded through the third wire will be hot.

Neutral faults are not uncommon. I've got a dead UPS to prove it. The UPS was on loan to a friend whose house happened to have a bad neutral connection between the service entrance and the pole transformer. Depending on the relative load on each of the two legs of the incoming power, the neutral voltage would float one way or another. One night, the neutral floated too far in one direction and tripped the hot-neutral surge protection MOV in the UPS. The MOV caught fire and coated the inside of the UPS with nicely conductive soot.

Bluefront wrote:And I still cannot see why that cheap plug-in wiring checker.....won't work properly with this wiring mod.

The plug-in circuit testers just contain three lamps that are connected between the hot-neutral, hot-ground, and neutral-ground pins. In a properly wired three-pin receptacle, the hot-neutral and hot-ground lamps will be lit, and the neutral-ground lamp will be dark. If the ground circuit is open, then the hot-ground lamp will be off. If the hot vs. neutral polarity is reversed in a three wire circuit, then the hot-neutral and neutral-ground lamps will be lit, and the hot-ground lamp will be dark. If there is no ground wire to the receptacle and the neutral and ground pins are connected together at the receptacle, then the neutral-ground lamp will always be off (because both of the wires feeding it are shorted together), and both the hot-neutral and hot-ground lamps will be lit, even if hot and neutral are reversed between the receptacle and the panel. The tester will tell you that the receptacle is properly wired, even though the ground pin is actually hot.

BTW, I think the shock hazard can be alleviated if you use a GFCI receptacle, though I don't know if you will be able to prove that the GFCI is functional because the test button might not work.

subsonik · Post by **subsonik** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:47 pm

I'm astonished some people actually defend the "neutral becomes ground" circuit. This kind of a circuit is a VERY bad idea and can be lethal if anything goes wrong. I would not like to be liable for an accident of that kind. Especially not in the USA.

Also, using central heating pipes for grounding is a very, very bad idea. If anything goes wrong in the machine you grounded like that, your complete central heating system may be at 230V (110V) level. Including your shower.

Also, stories of people stating "no ground, no problems, already for xx years" are worthless. It's not because some fool manages to drive around without a safety belt for 20 years, that safety belts can be discarded.

Just go with Firetech's advice. Get a PROPER ground connection, and while you're at it, new power outlets as well.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:35 pm

Well that sounds nice but....If you rent, you have to depend on your landlord to pay for a wiring upgrade. That might/will be difficult.

The cold water pipe is used for a ground by different components in many places. Why.....because it is a ground, just like a grounding rod, only longer. My drier and washer in the basement, are separately connected to the cold water pipe by ground wires, installed by an electrician.

So you have an available ground, if you are near a cold water pipe (copper). Obviously, the hot and neutral wires need to be connected properly, and your added-on ground wire also connected properly.......if you want an outlet that is wired properly, correctly enough to make your surge protector work, and to make the whole setup safe to touch.

If you're afraid of AC wires...forget the whole thing. Just unplug everything every time there is a storm.

NyteOwl · Post by **NyteOwl** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:09 pm

The bottom line is be careful and research. One note on using a cold water pipe. If you try this route, make sure you trace your water line to ensure that somewhere on it's path into the ground it doesn;t change to PVC, ABS,firbreglass or some other non-conductive piping. Water itself is conductive but you really need the metallic ground.

Bluefront: like the signature line

subsonik · Post by **subsonik** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:20 pm

Bluefront wrote:Well that sounds nice but....If you rent, you have to depend on your landlord to pay for a wiring upgrade. That might/will be difficult.

Indeed, that's a problem. Maybe there is legislation about this in your country, do some research about what your rights are

Bluefront wrote: The cold water pipe is used for a ground by different components in many places. Why.....because it is a ground, just like a grounding rod, only longer. My drier and washer in the basement, are separately connected to the cold water pipe by ground wires, installed by an electrician.

Sure it can be used as a ground, but not a safe one. First, it's a ground connection you can touch and take a shower in. Second, there's absolutely no regulation about the ground impedance of your cold water pipe. Third, it may be connected to your gas pipe through your boiler - which might also give spectacular effects if anything goes wrong.

Remember that the ground connection can always get at AC potential if an appliance fails. All it takes in a PC, is one shorted capacitor in the net filter.

The cold water pipe is not designed to be a ground - PVC pipes are used more often these days. If your house's cold water pipe is grounded badly, you might ground it to the sewer while taking a shower. This is not something you want to happen while your ground is at AC potential due to a broken appliance!

My outlets aren't grounded, how bad is this?

My outlets aren't grounded, how bad is this?

Re: My outlets aren't grounded, how bad is this?

Re: My outlets aren't grounded, how bad is this?