Should west be more worried...

[Erssa]

About Muslims brainwashing their children?

In this children's program they are telling children, that the Danish cartoonist, Kurt Westergaard, should be assassinated. In this clip, Assud the rabbit, promises to get rid of the Jews. These are just the peak of the iceberg. How is west supposed to avoid a future conflict with the east, when we are facing new generations of people taught to hate us from birth? Some of them living among us and watching these shows via satellite.

If you have seen Jesus Camp, you know that American Christian fundamentalists are also doing the same to their kids. Here's a disturbing clip from Jesus Camp.

When there just aren't any constitutional ways of preventing this from happening, what could you do to prevent this child abuse?

[Bluefront]

Tough problem.....don't have kids, and you won't have to face it. Home-schooling in the USA is one solution, combined with close monitoring of TV programs and other media when the kid is young.

Presumably, as they grow older, they are less likely to be "brain-washed"....so a parent can gradually let the kid decide things for himself. I'd prefer my own kid pick and chose his own religion...or lack of one.

Almost too much to ask of a parent.....

[neon joe]

I don't know exactly where it started, but Christains have a lack of trust of anyone in the scientific field... I spend alot of time with Christains explaining the difference between hypothesis and theory. Once they understand that, I explain that evolution is a good, scientific theory.

Christians who question the science behind theories are generally scoffed at - even if their questions are the same ones asked in introductory science courses. If more scientist would take a kinder approach, the fundamentalist Christains wouldn't be such a problem.

And those crazy Christains (I have a few at my church)... they just need to relax, and try to understand science, rather than undermine it.

[Erssa]

Tough problem.....don't have kids, and you won't have to face it. Home-schooling in the USA is one solution, combined with close monitoring of TV programs and other media when the kid is young.

Wow, your solution is the problem. This is exactly what these fundamentalist parents are doing, home-schooling, so their kids can only hear their version and limited media to avoid "corruption".

I presume you didn't watch the Jesus Camp clip. It said in the end, that 75% of home-schooled American kids are Evangelicals. Home-schooling is part of the problem, when parents get to abuse their authority over the kids with all kinds of lies or ideas and they have a chance to hear the other side of the story, like they could, if they went to school.

In the end of the documentary, Becky, one of the main brainwashers says proudly: "It's like animal rights people, eat your heart out." This of course was a reference to how superior their brainwashing method is compared to those used by animal rights parents.

As to monitoring TV programs or media... You should do the exact opposite, especially for these brainwashed kids. Expose them to as much media and information as possible and maybe they might start to question some of the truths they are told.

[jhhoffma]

Wow, your solution is the problem. This is exactly what these fundamentalist parents are doing, home-schooling, so their kids can only hear their version and limited media to avoid "corruption".

I presume you didn't watch the Jesus Camp clip. It said in the end, that 75% of home-schooled American kids are Evangelicals. Home-schooling is part of the problem, when parents get to abuse their authority over the kids with all kinds of lies or ideas and they have a chance to hear the other side of the story, like they could, if they went to school.

In the end of the documentary, Becky, one of the main brainwashers says proudly: "It's like animal rights people, eat your heart out." This of course was a reference to how superior their brainwashing method is compared to those used by animal rights parents.

As to monitoring TV programs or media... You should do the exact opposite, especially for these brainwashed kids. Expose them to as much media and information as possible and maybe they might start to question some of the truths they are told.

Ahh, but you assume that the public schooling system and TV networks are less biased than the home-schooled situations. IMO, political correctness has taken the place of education in the schools. They are now too concerned about what they're doodling and what's on their t-shirts that they forget that the job is to be concerned with what's in their heads. My wife is an educator and sometimes it's an impossible job, with the parents expecting you to educate their children without their help after the child leaves the school. "Make my kid smart so they can get a good job!", they say and then they take their 6 kids home to their double-wide with 3 plasma TVs and a leased Lexus. Stupidity is everywhere.

Forcing children to accept divine creation with no proof is no different from a school allowing that the tragedy on 9/11 "could have been perpetrated by the US government" with no proof (happened in a nearby school). It reads like something out of one of my fav shows, "Jericho". Speaking of TV, that's another problem. IMO, the current decline of the Western Civilization started with one show: The Real World. It launched the current obsession with how people live their day to day lives, and creates an expectation of conflict and dramatic behavior with kids too young to understand that those things are scripted just as much as their favorite sitcom. But they go out and think that's the way life is, and when their partying, no-job-having, cheating-on-my-significant-other ways lead them nowhere, it's too late to try and help guide them toward decency because their confident in their stupidity since "everyone else is doing it".

Best advice: take care of you and your own. Be involved with as much as you can (by being supportive), but allow them their independence. When they start to develop that independence (mentally and rationally), challenge it--and this is the hard part--without stifling it. They'll be stronger for having to think through their beliefs, knowing that they'll be challenged, and not be one of the sheep.

[AuraAllan]

Kurt Westergaard is a caricaturist, not a cartoonist.

Poor guy just did his job. Now extremists are trying to get him assasinated.

Freedom of speech !

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

There are positive changes:

Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

[Erssa]

Ahh, but you assume that the public schooling system and TV networks are less biased than the home-schooled situations.

Generally it is. But also children should be told not to blindly accept everything the teacher is telling them.

Best advice: take care of you and your own. Be involved with as much as you can (by being supportive), but allow them their independence. When they start to develop that independence (mentally and rationally), challenge it--and this is the hard part--without stifling it. They'll be stronger for having to think through their beliefs, knowing that they'll be challenged, and not be one of the sheep.

I agree completely. But I'm not worried about your kids or my kids. But how would you tackle the growing number of extremism without interfering with freedom of speech? There's not much hope for peace in middle east as long as Palestinian children's programs teach kids to hate infidels.

[xan_user]

Its not just children only children, there are awful lot of "adults" being brainwashed by FOX"news" and or Al Jazeera ect.

I'm sure Jesus and Mohammad would say, in chourus "Why can't we all just get along?"

[JazzJackRabbit]

Christians who question the science behind theories are generally scoffed at - even if their questions are the same ones asked in introductory science courses. If more scientist would take a kinder approach, the fundamentalist Christains wouldn't be such a problem.

The problem is how they ask their questions. A junior in high school asking a question about science/evolution is asking the question to get an answer. When Christians ask the same questions, they often ask them hoping you wouldn't be able to answer them and thus turn to their way of thinking. That's the reason why scientists and scholars scoff at those questions - those questions are not meant to engage in a meaningful discussion, they are meant to convert others into whatever faith they practice.

[neon joe]

The problem is how they ask their questions. A junior in high school asking a question about science/evolution is asking the question to get an answer. When Christians ask the same questions, they often ask them hoping you wouldn't be able to answer them and thus turn to their way of thinking.

Absolutely correct.
That is why it's especially important to answer those questions - I've had great success in convincing people that science isn't the farce (or whatever) they think it is. I've often been frustrated, but taking the time to answer their questions is better than ridiculing them.

There are exeptions (as always) but even the people that seem resistant at first will eventually accept the truth...

[AZBrandon]

Its not just children only children, there are awful lot of "adults" being brainwashed by FOX"news" and or Al Jazeera ect.

And by Counterfeit News Network, Dateline NBC's exploding pickup trucks, 60 Minutes' Audi "unintended accelleration" news, etc. Every possible media outlet has lied. Really, every human to ever live and who will ever live has and will continue to lie unless or until God steps in and changes the functional behavior of humans. Humans are currently incapable of avoiding lying and deception.

To be honest, the solution is to just keep doing what you're doing. Exactly what is the danger of the Islamic extremists? I see none, other than a very small one. Their countries are all poor, and the ones that aren't poor only have money because they export oil - a finite resource that scientists say may run out within 50 years. Do you honestly think this tiny group of extremists, which represent perhaps 1% of Muslims in total can take over the WORLD in 50 years? Not a chance. No way, no how.

When the oil runs out, the extremists won't have any money and will cease to even register as a blip on the list of world problems. 50 years from now, climate change and air quality will be far more dangerous than brainwashing.

[xan_user]

agreed, i just listed the two first that came to mind.

Extreme groups or individuals that show no tolerance for others opinions are just as scary no matter what side they're on. left/right east/west black/white...






...silent/OC'd

[neon joe]

...silent/OC'd

HA!
Good one

[spookmineer]

...silent/OC'd

I don't see two ends of extremes in this one, they can live together in harmony

[Bluefront]

For sure home schooling is used by some parents to brain-wash their kids. But it doesn't have to be that way. It can be used to give your kid a neutral, moderate view of things, rather than what they receive in public school these days. Let your kid grow up with PBS in the USA, and his outlook will surely be affected.

Tough times to raise a kid.....peer pressure in the public school can certainly point him in a different direction than you might prefer. I'd keep the kid at home if I could, at least for the primary grades. Done properly, a home-schooled child might even become much smarter than the average. Maybe not even have tattoos and pierced lips.....

[JazzJackRabbit]

The problem is how they ask their questions. A junior in high school asking a question about science/evolution is asking the question to get an answer. When Christians ask the same questions, they often ask them hoping you wouldn't be able to answer them and thus turn to their way of thinking.

Absolutely correct.
That is why it's especially important to answer those questions - I've had great success in convincing people that science isn't the farce (or whatever) they think it is. I've often been frustrated, but taking the time to answer their questions is better than ridiculing them.

There are exeptions (as always) but even the people that seem resistant at first will eventually accept the truth...

Here's a good comic: http://xkcd.com/386/

I used to argue a lot, I rarely do now. If I see that the person is deaf to the reason (which is how many of Religious people are) I just shut up and let it drop. I don't want to waste my time talking with a person that cannot be reasoned with.

[aristide1]

To the OP, I'm wondering why your original concern is so limited in scope? Are there not reasonable and unreasonable people of all faiths? Are the reasonable people of other faiths (disregarded by ...) also having the same concerns and problems we are? We see our terrorists as people who don't listen to reason killing indiscriminantly. How would this differ from the Iraqi viewpoint of us? 600,000+ dead that have their own definition of democracy now.

I suspect your concern is valid, but lets examine why (areas never addressed by, oh well you know). Probably every western country has a growing concern, will they be next? Why is that? Most countries have had no effect on the Middle East, yet they are at risk. Is it because the Mid-East terrorists are thinking "Either you're with us or against us?"

If that's the case, the obvious next question (another area never addressed by....) would be "Now where have I heard that ultimatum/declaration before?" And does it sound less terroristic coming out of the one leader's mouth than the other leader's mouth?

And even if we monitored our borders extensively how much good would it do? We often speculate how Bin Laden was created, but we don't speculate how Timothy McVeigh got created? Why is that? Have any of those factors changed or are the same factors creating more? And perhaps the reason we don't address why McVeigh was created, as opposed to BinLaden, is the same factors could have been involved in creating both? But Tim was from the US, so it's a little harder to understand it or we aren't suppose to understand it. Now it may seem odd but frankly if a bridge and everyone on it gets destroyed, to me it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether it came from outside or within; same damage, same body count, same people hiding and then coming out and making speeches when it's safe for them.

Extremists are ruining the world. The problem is the normal people just want to go about their business and have no need to be the squeaky wheel. Meanwhile, like the extremists we have here, they seem to believe that just because somebody managed to inculcate them the rest of us will be equally as gullible. Unfortunately it seems to be working that way for more and more people. Who knows how many more Americans are going to be Coultered or Limbaughed in the next 10 years. You should be as concerned with them as anybody else.

[neon joe]

aristide1, it's interesting that you mentioned Ann Coulter...

I tend to vote republican, and 'side' with republicans on more issues than I do with Democrats... however, I cannot stand Ann Coulter.

I'm not sure why, maybe it's her constant exaggerations and misrepresentations of democrats to make them look bad, or maybe it's when she says things like "it's too bad Timothy McVeigh didn't target the New York Times building" and "I am emboldened by my good looks to say things republican men wouldn't." (possible paraphrases here, but close enough)

She should be ashamed of herself...

P.S. Sorry for the completely OT comments

[aristide1]

Hey if fearless leader can say "I don't know where Bin Laden is and I don't care." without upsetting anyone then why would anyone get upset about what AC would say?

Limbaugh didn't have any problems telling the world Michael J Fox was shaking in his boots for the other party's benefit. What does that say about Mr "I failed another urine test" Limbaugh?

[Bluefront]

neon joe......you know you don't have to "exaggerate and misrepresent" to make Liberals/Democrats look bad. Just watch them debate each other on the evening news.

What I'm reading here.... 9-11 was actually caused by white America, and we have nothing to fear from the peaceable Muslims around the world. Sure....

[neon joe]

you don't have to "exaggerate and misrepresent" to make Liberals/Democrats look bad.

Maybe not, but she does...

[Spare Tire]

These palestinians air shows like this because they are in a situation that warrants them to use propaganda like this. It's not the same for every arab country, not to mention every muslim country. Indonesia is the biggest muslim country but you never hear about that. It's not a problem with the religion.
The US had 9-11 and suddenly they are entitled to be as anal as ever.

[Greg F.]

If want cause for concern look at the projected demographics for Western Europe. The birth rate is declining and at a certain point the workforce will not be sustainable. Put another way, you can't run an economy with a bunch of sixty year olds. So they must be brought in from elsewhere and that "elsewhere" is going to be North Africa and the Middle East. Those immigrants are going to be predominantly Muslim. The demographics will change to such an extent that it is thought that by about 2050 most of the people living in Western Europe could be Muslim. The traditional USA allies of Western Europe will be much different.

[jhhoffma]

It's not the same for every arab country, not to mention every muslim country. Indonesia is the biggest muslim country but you never hear about that. It's not a problem with the religion.

It's also a republic with elected leaders, not a theocracy. Having a fervently religious population is not the same as having a fervently religious government. It's also a very wealthy country, given the region. It's the same old argument: Does crime cause poverty, or does poverty cause crime?

The US had 9-11 and suddenly they are entitled to be as anal as ever.

That's probably the most callous statement I've heard in a long time, I wonder how other nations of the world would have responded if someone had attacked their financial, military, and legislative (albeit unsuccessfully) institutions at the same time? Maybe we should have capitulated to what they (whoever THEY might be) wanted and abandon our way of life, so they wouldn't pick on us.

Remember that the types of people who do these sorts of things are not just haters of America, they are haters of western civilization as a whole (not like terror groups with a specific purpose like your own FLQ) and today America embodies Western Civilization. If America wasn't around, it'd be someone else taking the brunt of their wrath. Last I checked, Quebec was still in the western hemisphere...

[Erssa]

To the OP, I'm wondering why your original concern is so limited in scope? Are there not reasonable and unreasonable people of all faiths?

Some believers are more unreasonable than others. Hindus aren't suicide bombing us just because we eat their sacred animals (cows). Can you imagine Buddhists aiming for nirvana by suicide bombing? I don't see anyone burning our embassies because of how Jesus is portrayed in South Park or because of how Hollywood dared to make Dogma or Bruce Almighty, or the other countless comics, strips, etc. Compare this Mohammed cartoon scandal to the reaction caused by Piss Christ by Serrano and you see why not only do I have more reason to be worried about Muslims, but why I don't need to worry about the rest.

Are the reasonable people of other faiths (disregarded by ...) also having the same concerns and problems we are? We see our terrorists as people who don't listen to reason killing indiscriminantly.

We see they don't listen to reason, but there's nothing indiscriminant in the way terrorists kill.

How would this differ from the Iraqi viewpoint of us? 600,000+ dead that have their own definition of democracy now.

Why is your scope so limited? This has absolutely nothing to with Iraq. Denmark is not USA. Norway or Austria had nothing to do with the scandal. Yet muslims in Syria burned down the Norwegian and Danish embassies. Denmarks embassy in Lebanon was burned down. Their embassies were attacked in Iran and Afghanistan. Austrian embassy was attacked in Iran. Italian nun was killed in Somalia as a protest to the Mohammed cartoons. Although no one was killed in far east, Danish flags were burned outside their embassies. Being a citizen of a "Christian" country is all it takes to be attacked. USA is only a small part of the problem even though they are hated the most.

It's not like Danish government attacked these countries. It's all because of some cartoons in Danish newspaper. Theo van Gogh was murdered because he directed the movie "Submission" (Islam means submission in English) written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Liberal politician Pim Fortuyn was killed for his views on Islam.

These aren't "protests", they are trying to scare Europe into submission. They want us to ban freedom of speech.

I suspect your concern is valid, but lets examine why (areas never addressed by, oh well you know). Probably every western country has a growing concern, will they be next? Why is that? Most countries have had no effect on the Middle East, yet they are at risk. Is it because the Mid-East terrorists are thinking "Either you're with us or against us?"

If that's the case, the obvious next question (another area never addressed by....) would be "Now where have I heard that ultimatum/declaration before?" And does it sound less terroristic coming out of the one leader's mouth than the other leader's mouth?

And even if we monitored our borders extensively how much good would it do? We often speculate how Bin Laden was created, but we don't speculate how Timothy McVeigh got created? Why is that? Have any of those factors changed or are the same factors creating more? And perhaps the reason we don't address why McVeigh was created, as opposed to BinLaden, is the same factors could have been involved in creating both? But Tim was from the US, so it's a little harder to understand it or we aren't suppose to understand it. Now it may seem odd but frankly if a bridge and everyone on it gets destroyed, to me it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether it came from outside or within; same damage, same body count, same people hiding and then coming out and making speeches when it's safe for them.

Extremists are ruining the world. The problem is the normal people just want to go about their business and have no need to be the squeaky wheel. Meanwhile, like the extremists we have here, they seem to believe that just because somebody managed to inculcate them the rest of us will be equally as gullible. Unfortunately it seems to be working that way for more and more people. Who knows how many more Americans are going to be Coultered or Limbaughed in the next 10 years. You should be as concerned with them as anybody else.

Again I'll just say your world view is too America-centric. We don't have Timothy McVeighs in Europe, and even if we did have, no one would protest their existence by burning embassies and killing nuns.

It's not the same for every arab country, not to mention every muslim country. Indonesia is the biggest muslim country but you never hear about that. It's not a problem with the religion.

Hear about what? Abu Sayaaf and kidnappings? Ok, they were Filipinos, but close enough.2002 Bali bombings? 2005 Bali bombings? Aceh?

Russia is also fighting against Muslims in Chechnya. They are not Arabs either, but their practices are just as dirty. How's Beslan massacre or Moscow theater crisis. I mentioned Chechnya although I know someone will point out that it's all Russia's fault, and maybe it is to some point. But every reasonable person knows, they aren't going to win any sympathy by targeting children...

But more on topic. I'm really worried about these Palestinian children's programs, because like Greg F said, Europe has an exponentially growing Muslim population. They watch these hatemongers from DVDs, satellites and internet. I have no problem with Muslims hating "decadent" western culture from Middle East and I have no interest in turning them into westerners. They can keep their women mutilating and gay stoning culture for all I care. But I don't want this hate propaganda to spread here amongst our population, because it will result only in political polarization and eventually violence.

[Spare Tire]

Maybe we should have capitulated to what they (whoever THEY might be) wanted and abandon our way of life, so they wouldn't pick on us.

Remember that the types of people who do these sorts of things are not just haters of America, they are haters of western civilization as a whole

Russia is also fighting against Muslims in Chechnya. They are not Arabs either, but their practices are just as dirty. How's Beslan massacre or Moscow theater crisis. I mentioned Chechnya although I know someone will point out that it's all Russia's fault, and maybe it is to some point. But every reasonable person knows, they aren't going to win any sympathy by targeting children...

Well, exactly. I was also gonna mention that Russia had the beslan hostage crisis and they became entitled to be as anal as ever too.
Long story short, it's never been just "we're just living our way of life". America is probably the country most well disposed to be self-sufficient, with natural ressources in abundance and enough of an internal market to do so but the american way of life as it is now and as it has been since world war 2 and even before that cannot sustain itself from just what it has. The economy must expand to meet the expanding needs of the economy, or it will fall. The american way of life DEMANDS that you keep other countries in your influence, in your debt, and also eliminate any competitors that might want to do the same.
In the end, at the core of the problem is the definition of freedom everyone thinks he's entitled to. Freedom is not to be able to do what you want. Who needs an intellectual concept, a foundation for the RIGHT to freedom, when it just merely describe a state of nature where any animal can potentially do whatever he wants limited only by his power to make it happen, possibly against the will of others who think they are entitled to the same "freedom"?
Rather, the right to freedom comes from the social pact that we have made together, you and me, that limits what we can do, but ensures that nobody will prevent you from doing what you have the right to do. That's freedom.
So as it is now, the "american way of life" backed by its economic model is incompatible with freedom, and america being the prototype of all western civilization, so is the "western way of life". Perhaps when "the west" will have conquered the world and all would be considered "westerners" will we see a true social pact of free men instead of us and them, predator and prey? The irony is, if that happens, the western way of life would no longer be viable for the united world.

[floffe]

Here's a good comic: http://xkcd.com/386/

I used to argue a lot, I rarely do now. If I see that the person is deaf to the reason (which is how many of Religious people are) I just shut up and let it drop. I don't want to waste my time talking with a person that cannot be reasoned with.

I've channeled that comic myself a couple of times in the last week, when I'd probably previously have attempted to point out how wrong people are, knowing it'd do no good anyway...

[aristide1]

neon joe......you know you don't have to "exaggerate and misrepresent" to make Liberals/Democrats look bad. Just watch them debate each other on the evening news.....

When did just parroting what you hear start to trump thinking?

[aristide1]

I don't want to waste my time talking with a person that cannot be reasoned with.

How I wish everyone here felt that way.