The Obama Deception

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:51 am

aristide1 wrote:Tunnel vision would be a more accurate term. Some here simply call it selective memory. In either case it requires forethought.

Example: Xan's responses don't exist or aren't worth addressing.

I believe I am turning the other cheek now.

You and Xan? & Me

And never the twain shall meet.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:13 am

judge56988 wrote:If someone has a different opinion to you, that makes them ignorant?

No, ignoring facts you don't like does that. Don't blame me for your self-induced short-comings, I'm only the messenger.

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:35 pm

aristide1 --

Back off on the insults & name-calling. Differing opins don''t have to turn into a fight. I refer to comments like --

Nothing I say will overcome premeditated ignorance. People see only what they choose to see. Ignorance is bliss.

Safe well fed serfs are still serfs. The fact that they live better than their parents doesn't change the current facts.

The above serves only as a mud sling. There's no need for that. You don't have a monopoly on "informed opinions."

Here's my 2 cents --

IMO, aristide1's experience and perspective of life in corporate America and judge56988's apparently opposing PoV on life in corporate England are both valid. A lot of the difference in perspective appears to be the result of differing expectations. If you come from real working class roots, then moving to a middle class life may be just cause for satisfaction. On the other hand, if you are born to into a typical US middle class family of the 50s/60/70s, by far the wealthiest majority of any period in history, then you cannot help but see the decline in real income that's taken place in the last 2-3 decades.

tim851 · Post by **tim851** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:32 pm

What a load of garbage. The stupid thing about conspiracy theories is that they always go all in. It's always everything that is being controlled and just about everyone is involved in it. They can never be subtle. It's never like "Obama's being controlled by the bankers and they make him lower taxes." no way, it's always gotta be "All governments are puppets and the Illuminati decide in which direction the earth is spinning".

As long as we have capital based societies it's a no-brainer that people with more capital have more power that people with less capital. Lobbyist influence on governments is no secret either. One has to be wary, but there is such a thing as paranoia and the guy in the video is definitely suffering from it.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:42 pm

My apologies.

blackworx · Post by **blackworx** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:20 am

tim851 wrote:What a load of garbage. The stupid thing about conspiracy theories is that they always go all in. It's always everything that is being controlled and just about everyone is involved in it. They can never be subtle. It's never like "Obama's being controlled by the bankers and they make him lower taxes." no way, it's always gotta be "All governments are puppets and the Illuminati decide in which direction the earth is spinning".

As long as we have capital based societies it's a no-brainer that people with more capital have more power that people with less capital. Lobbyist influence on governments is no secret either. One has to be wary, but there is such a thing as paranoia and the guy in the video is definitely suffering from it.

Hear hear, you put that very succinctly.

I like how he challenges the viewer to go and check the facts, as if doing so will somehow prove his conclusions. At the time I was thinking: it's not the facts I have a problem with, it's the overstretched logic and constant implication by subtle misuse of language (e.g. constantly referring to "members" of the Bilderberg Group as if it was some kind of closed society when in fact its participants change constantly).

Sure there's greedy selfish sh*tty stuff going on, that's in our nature as living things, but this sort of all-in hysteria is only going to alienate people from the alternative viewpoint.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:04 am

There need not be a conspiracy for various criminal elements, having a common goal, to use common means. The question then becomes are the results are any different?

By definition the Hell's Angels and other gangs are conspiracies. They work together, define group means, methods, policies, and procedures to deal with whatever doesn't suit them and to be profitable in whatever method suits them, regardless of the laws.

So no, if banks wanted to sell riskier investments and they individually lobbied for changes in the law, got what they wanted, sold the investments, which then had a bad result, there was no conspiracy. So what if there wasn't?

And if the general feelings of responsibility, the ethics of a culture falls, and more and more companies find it's acceptable to raid funds set aside for pensions or simply underfund them then that's what happens. Did that happen? Well current pension laws are becoming more strict and pension insurance costs are rising. Did that happen for no reason? And you also have some people who buy companies, break them apart, and sell the pieces. No conspiracy there, but do people on the wrong end of the stick consider that very important?

If one looks at the creation of the 401K, the creator's thought process was to build a third leg on the stool; for retirees to have a pension, SS, and a 401K to rely on. There was no conspiracy for companies to view it as a means to escape defined pension plans, but more than one company has used the plan in that manner.

Where I work they changed the defined pension plan a few years ago. It reduced payments out in the future. The decision was prudent. It assured the ongoing survivability of the plan, compensated for the current economic climate and competition. It was fair because it only changed moving forward, past earnings and calculations are still intact. Nobody likes it, but nobody has a problem with it. <- Does that sound socialist to anybody?

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:26 am

aristide1 wrote:Tunnel vision would be a more accurate term. Some here simply call it selective memory. In either case it requires forethought.

Example: Xan's responses don't exist or aren't worth addressing.

I believe I am turning the other cheek now.

ditto.

aris, lets go grab a beer (NA) and have a rational conversation...

blackworx · Post by **blackworx** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:55 am

Ok, so conspiracy or not the results aren't in question, but would you not agree that the caricature of the conspiracy nut does little to help the cause of people who would fight for change? A lot of the "conspirators'" ability to brush off claims of wrongdoing comes from their facility to rationalise calmly and endlessly whatever it is they're up to whilst at the same time pointing to the unhinged guy with the megaphone and shrugging.

I also have a vague disquiet about what or who guys like Alex Jones are actually fighting for. They're certainly not fighting for the people worldwide who are the ones who are really oppressed by these "conspirators". For such people, me, you and Alex Jones are all part of the same problem, and we might as well be on the moon for all the difference it makes.

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:29 am

me and a whole lot of fed up folks.
Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace.- Buddha

Conservitives
Divide and Conquer.-Julius Caesar

blackworx · Post by **blackworx** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:05 am

xan_user wrote:me and a whole lot of fed up folks.
Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace.- Buddha

Conservitives
Divide and Conquer.-Julius Caesar

I don't follow.

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:02 am

blackworx wrote: I don't follow.

judge56988 wrote:
You and Xan? & Me

And never the twain shall meet.

xan_user wrote:me and a whole lot of fed up folks.
Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace.- Buddha

Conservitives
Divide and Conquer.-Julius Caesar

blackworx · Post by **blackworx** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:55 am

I got that bit, I just didn't understand the Conservatives and death thing. Whilst I would agree that for many people in this country, voting Conservative is roughly the moral equivalent of eating babies, I don't know that it follows voting for them will lead directly to deaths on the scale of the wars and atrocities listed on the wiki page you linked.

As an aside, I would add that I'd never have seen myself voting Conservative in a million years, but I really think I'm going to have to do it next time round purely on the single issue of the National Identity Register, a huge insidious centralised database which our current fearmongering Labour (supposedly left wing) government is intent on foisting upon us in the name of preventing t*****ism. Westminster may be the mother of parliaments, but we seriously need proportional representation in this country. Anyway, that's a whole other story...

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:57 am

blackworx wrote:I got that bit, I just didn't understand the Conservatives and death thing.

Historically the conservative and religious "deception"has been responsible for most of the wars the earth has faced.

I should have a much better link..or at least had it go to "wars and armed conflicts" section.
I was running the kids out the door to school.

If posting my views gets me associated with

"We are the British section of the International Committee of the Fourth International, founded by Leon Trotsky. We are Marxists and fight for the principles founded by Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky.

Our party is the Workers Revolutionary Party and fights to build a leadership throughout the working class and youth to lead the struggle for the British and world socialist revolutions. The youth section of the WRP, the Young Socialists, organises young workers and students in the struggle for socialism and a future. We produce a daily paper, the News Line and a weekly youth paper Young Socialist. "

then making the point the conservatives are war mongers seems fair.

When it degraded to that, I should have just stuck to my guns and ignored this thread - Like I will now.
Its not like any minds are going to be changed here any how...

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:05 pm

xan_user wrote:ditto.

aris, lets go grab a beer (NA) and have a rational conversation...

Under the circumstances a really snooty French wine may be in order. Can I say that without someone getting all bent out of shape?

Seriously though the whole thing has been blown out of proportion because I used a phrase I created myself and it was not understood in the same context as what I wanted to say. For that I apologize, and for upsetting Mike C, who has put up with me for a very long time.

Premeditated ignorance is not the same as being ignorant. When one is ignorant they simply do not know. That in and of itself is not a crime. But choosing which facts one decides are worthwhile and which facts one dismisses simply because one doesn't like them is P.I. Some of the most one sided people on earth, extremely well educated, use this tactic to their own benefit. The victim is the truth and all who listen. When Al Franken says "But what about this situation......?" and Bill O'Reilly doesn't address the facts as presented, but throws a temper tantrum and starts yelling "Shut up!" that's O'Reilly trying to stay ignorant of the facts that he simply can't deal with. They don't fit into his vision of the world as he sees it.

The thing about PI is, my calling it that is not the true harm, and neither is getting upset by it. About a year ago there was an experiment, perhaps doing an RMI while bringing up political issues, that actually showed the parts of the brain shutting down when the facts went against the person's beliefs. So PI has nothing to do with being ignorant in the conventional sense, it's a self imposed and premeditated limitation to what one doesn't like. Now they didn't assign a name to the phenomenon, but it needs some kind of term. It happens mostly with political issues, but frankly anyone places their politics, religion, economic policy, above any argument is going to have this severe limitation. And it's this limitation that makes so many political discussions becomes very nasty arguments. When I've had really good and balanced discussions with politics we inevitably notice that we rarely change where we stand, we acknowledge and try to deal with the opposing view, and occasionally we really enjoy when we agree both parties are idiots and we have a better solution, to which nobody will listen to. Eh, and that's fine too.

I was called a socialist here. I suppose given the nature of where one stands this guy is a socialist as well:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29879463/

Looking for balance?

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

Sounds very conservative doesn't it? Try this one:

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Do these statements fall squarely into the conservative camp? You tell me.
But then:

Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition.

Sounds an awful lot like being in debt, doesn't it? He also said:

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

and

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

But most telling may be this remark:

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

Thomas Jefferson

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:26 pm

Chew on these facts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V510t0ec ... re=related

Not that these are far behind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rlqjxst ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZwxi_aIOiM

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:04 pm

aristide1 wrote:
Under the circumstances a really snooty French wine may be in order. Can I say that without someone getting all bent out of shape?

snooty?hows this?...france (EU) is demanding we stop calling American wineries by names like "Cos du Bois"

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20 ... wine-name-

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:14 pm

But French Fries is OK? Oh man, where's the justice?

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:27 pm

For an occasional reminder and a quick overview of what some have already forgotten, the Bush Deception:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLcUS9c9Kbo

Other guilty members brought to you through intentional acts.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:29 pm

tim851 wrote:"All governments are puppets and the Illuminati decide in which direction the earth is spinning".

Heh, well you know how it is. A government that isn't corrupt isn't a real government after all*. :P
Bah, I have no time to check this out. We have biased judges, "we see what you are doing on the internetz" and other fun stuff going on here.

*But then, all my knowledge about governments come from x-files, which may or may not hold.

Lucky Luciano · Post by **Lucky Luciano** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:19 am

judge56988 wrote:The way you lot are moaning, anyone would think we're still living in the days of the Industrial revolution when people worked in 'The Dark Satanic Mills' for barely enough pay to feed and clothe themselves, let alone buy computer(s) and flat screen colour HDTV's.
Employees have NEVER had it so good.
We don't send kids up chimneys anymore to sweep them.
Miners don't die of silicosis anymore - unless you're Chinese or Bolivian.
Health and Safety rules the workplace and there is a minimum wage.

Isn't anybody going to look at the positive changes that have been made?

You can look at them but only whilst realising that they weren't created by people who looked around them and said "we've done well" but the ones that said "we have a lot to do". And most importantly - many changes occurred through social struggle, not thru the decisions of selfless politicians or ethical business men.

Where has all this abundance come from?
Could it be from the global corporations that you so hate?

...and the slave labour they use in countries like China, where, thanks to the mix of stalinism and friedmanism workers have virtually no rights. If they enjoyed the living conditions(which, given the hard work they engage in, they certainly deserve) we the "superior" westerners wouldn't afford all this gadgetry.

Lucky Luciano · Post by **Lucky Luciano** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:20 am

judge56988 wrote:The way you lot are moaning, anyone would think we're still living in the days of the Industrial revolution when people worked in 'The Dark Satanic Mills' for barely enough pay to feed and clothe themselves, let alone buy computer(s) and flat screen colour HDTV's.
Employees have NEVER had it so good.
We don't send kids up chimneys anymore to sweep them.
Miners don't die of silicosis anymore - unless you're Chinese or Bolivian.
Health and Safety rules the workplace and there is a minimum wage.

Isn't anybody going to look at the positive changes that have been made?

You can look at them but only whilst realising that they weren't created by people who looked around them and said "we've done well" but the ones that said "we have a lot to do". And most importantly - many changes occurred through social struggle, not thru the decisions of selfless politicians or ethical business men.

Where has all this abundance come from?
Could it be from the global corporations that you so hate?

...and the slave labour they use in countries like China, where, thanks to the mix of stalinism and friedmanism workers have virtually no rights. If they enjoyed the working conditions(which, given the hard work they engage in, they certainly deserve) we the "superior" westerners have, we wouldn't afford all this wonderful possesions we have.

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:13 am

Lucky Luciano wrote:
judge56988 wrote:The way you lot are moaning, anyone would think we're still living in the days of the Industrial revolution when people worked in 'The Dark Satanic Mills' for barely enough pay to feed and clothe themselves, let alone buy computer(s) and flat screen colour HDTV's.
Employees have NEVER had it so good.
We don't send kids up chimneys anymore to sweep them.
Miners don't die of silicosis anymore - unless you're Chinese or Bolivian.
Health and Safety rules the workplace and there is a minimum wage.

Isn't anybody going to look at the positive changes that have been made?
You can look at them but only whilst realising that they weren't created by people who looked around them and said "we've done well" but the ones that said "we have a lot to do". And most importantly - many changes occurred through social struggle, not thru the decisions of selfless politicians or ethical business men.

The most radical changes in Britain in the mid to late 19th century were instigated by enlightened businessmen and politicians: http://www.historyandpolicy.org/papers/ ... er-01.html
It was because of the prevailing religous, moral and ethical feeling at the time, which admittedly is not very apparent these days.

Lucky Luciano wrote:
Where has all this abundance come from?
Could it be from the global corporations that you so hate?
...and the slave labour they use in countries like China, where, thanks to the mix of stalinism and friedmanism workers have virtually no rights. If they enjoyed the working conditions(which, given the hard work they engage in, they certainly deserve) we the "superior" westerners have, we wouldn't afford all this wonderful possesions we have.

True enough. I think that as China continues it's transformation from an agricultural economy to an industrial one, inevitably it's style of government will also change. From what I've read, the Chinese governments hardest task at the moment is trying to prevent this change from happening.

If at all possible I buy stuff made in the EU, preferably Britain. Sadly, that's impossible with most electronics.