SFF Tetris!

[Bobfantastic]

Hello all,

After a recent enquiry about small cases, I decided to bite the bullet and ordered myself an APlus Blockbuster- basically another X-QPack/Chenming clone. As much as I would have liked to get an Antec, the budget just couldn't justify the premium to get one in Scotland. I'm still gathering components for the final build, however I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts. The main problem is that I can't decide on a CPU cooler- more on this later.

For now, I've got a 3500+ Venice (s939) in an Asus A8V-VM SE mATX board, with a 6600GT (and VF9000) ready to plug in once I'm happy. I'm going to try to suspend a Samsung P80 in one of the drive bays as the only (current) HDD, running Vista. Therefore, I think I can remove the drive cage, and a large part of the support beam on that side of the case.

This shows the top-down view of the case. Drives go centre-left, the PSU (probably an S12-330, although a low-power modular Seasonic would be better) goes top-left. Around the CPU, you can clearly see an invitingly-pierced beam. By my very rough estimates, cutting out the inside-rail of the beam would give about a 60mm radius from the middle of the CPU. Height is basically unlimited, although in practice it's about 190mm from the CPU top to the case lid. Without removing the beam, the height is limited to about 65mm.

So then, the final questions- Has anyone else done this, and if so what cooler did they use?
What HSF would you recommend (I've had good experiences with AC Freezer 64s)?
Are there any quiet, tiny coolers that would work without breaking out the tin snips?
Is cutting the beam likely to lead to the case folding in half (it's all ~1mm aluminium)?
How the fudge can I cut my knuckles every time I open a PC case?
And finally, would the lovely people at Seasonic please hurry up with the 95+ certified M12-280?

Thanks in advance!

[unmake]

After close study of various folks pictures, I took a guess that the Thermalright Ultra-90 would fit on my Asus M2NPV, mounted in the Ultra Microfly case (1" longer QPack clone). It fits, but just barely.

The machine is fully built out yet, but BIOS temperatures for my X2 3800 were about 50C at idle with no fan on the Ultra90, and 32C with a slow 80mm clipped on beneath the PSU.

I don't know if this is a better option than the XP-90's and Blue Orb's people are using, but if you want to use a tower cooler without also using a Dremel, it's dimensions and orientation will have to be very similar to the Ultra-90.



PS - the HardOCP Will it Fit? FAQ is a useful resource for owners of these boxes.

[Bobfantastic]

Firstly- Welcome to SPCR!
Secondly- Thanks! I was wondering about the Thermalright towers, and whether or not they'd fit sideways- now I know
Do you think that I could put in an HR-01, if I rotated it by about 45 degrees and chopped out half of that beam (I do enjoy destroying things )?
If not, I'm happy to go for the Ultra-90, but I'd prefer to squeeze in the most cooling that I can- this machine will be folding as well, if I could do that semi-passively (case 120mm only) that would be ace.

Thanks again!

[Bobfantastic]

Good news- I may have found another option.
Looking through the coolers available at my local interweb retailer, I spotted this little beauty, and remembered that Noctua were held in particularly high regard by SPCR after some rather nice HS and fan tests. I decided to check whether this was feasible for my shoebox, using the best method I could find- doodling!

This bit of paper is exactly the same size as a Noctua NH-U9F, with front-mounted fan, and it's shown with the HS centred over the CPU. It won't fit sideways without cutting the beam, and as it stands at the moment the fan needs more space than I'm prepared to give it. I'm thinking that if I move the fan to the rear, to suck air through it, then I only need to remove the thin bits of the beam. It also means the heatsink is still facing the 'right' way.

Any thoughts?

p.s. I'm now also thinking that with the CPU and 120mm exhaust fan so close (~2 inches), I could probably get away with only having one of them. I've already removed the rear fan grill, and have silicon mounts standing by for the 120mm, and with the PSU also acting as an exhaust I'd wind up with a negative-pressure case. Are there any implications of this? I was going to filter the intakes all along the sides of the case, but for a negative-pressure case will i also need to block/filter every hole in the case?

[ultrachrome]

I'd skip the filters. Even when clean the restrict airflow. Just blow it out every 6 months or so. Keeping it off the floor also helps.

I think you can cut the inside leg of the beam without issue but that only seems to solve half your problems.

It looks like the PSU will encroach on your CPU area from above. Have you measured from the top of the CPU to the top of the other rail (where the PSU will rest)? It looks less than 120mm.

[MC FLMJIG]

It may work with that mobo but are all sockets in other mobos in the same area? That may pose a problem.

There is also the Ultra 120 but that thing is huge.

[Bobfantastic]

Ok, I've put the whole machine together (for now ).
I went for the Noctua NH-U9F, and then set about cutting out the beam.
Sure enough, it fitted beautifully- a few mm clearance on each side, and lined up well with the (removed) vent grills on the back.
However, you'll notice I said 'fitted'. It doesn't anymore, now that all the bits have arrived Ultrachrome, you were right. The corner of the Seasonic S12-380 was about 2mm too low to clear the heatsink. I did try brute-forcing it, and eventually managed to get the lid on the case, but almost as soon as I managed that I realised that it wasn't a good idea at all.

So then, back to plan B. I fitted the Noctua sideways, blowing towards the rear of the graphics card, with the fan on the outside-edge of the case. This works quite well, considering that there is no clear airflow through the case- everything that looked like a grill has been ripped out, so the rear of the case is basically wide open. Somehow, the exhaust seems to flow out the 120mm gap rather than anywhere else.
All I know is, it's cool and quiet

Top view-

GPU side-

HDD Suspension (I wonder if this counts as a perpendicular drive )-


MC FLMJIG- as I understand it, the position of the CPU sockets are set out by the mATX standard and that within an inch or so, the sockets are all in the same place (I could be very wrong though!) The Ultra 120 would be nice, but I think it would mean removing more of that beam than I'd like to. As it stands at the moment, the sides of the case play a major part in the stability of the chassis.

Overall, I'm reasonably happy with this machine. I think I'd like to change the VF900 on the 6600GT for a huge passive cooler (VM-101 or something) to take advantage of both the PSU exhaust and the CPU breeze acting on the back of the graphics card. I'll try and be more careful with me measurements . Also, I've only got an 80GB hdd in at the moment (Samsung P80) and for an HTPC-style machine, that's not a lot.

Final shot- in situ, with my new TV


Thanks to everyone that helped and to those took the time to check up on my latest daft idea.
If anyone wants some more pictures of the insides of this case, let me know (so long as I dont have to remove any components!)

[MrNeutrino]

After close study of various folks pictures, I took a guess that the Ultra-90 would fit on my M2NPV, mounted in the Ultra Microfly case (1" longer QPack clone). It fits, but just barely.

The machine is fully built out yet, but BIOS temperatures for my X2 3800 were about 50C at idle with no fan on the Ultra90, and 32C with a slow 80mm clipped on beneath the PSU.

I don't know if this is a better option than the XP-90's and Blue Orb's people are using, but if you want to use a tower cooler without also using a Dremel, it's dimensions and orientation will have to be very similar to the Ultra-90.

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PS - the HardOCP Will it Fit? FAQ is a useful resource for owners of these boxes.

Hey unmake,

AWESOME TIP! Never thought a true tower HSF would fit this case. Thanks for sharing!

What temps are you getting on your AMD box, and what CPU are you running with?

I'm about to start building a Core 2 Duo based box using this case. I'm thinking of using the CNPS7700 HSF but would love to compare that to this setup - cooling and noise wise.

[qviri]

Sorry to pick on you, you just posted the perfect photo. Could you measure the distance between the motherboard surface and the bottom of the PSU? And from the bottom of the case to the bottom of the PSU? How much clearance is there between the video card and the PSU?

Thanks.

[MC FLMJIG]

I'd be careful on a passive card. I've had 3 of these type of cases, 2 Qpack and 1 MicroFly, and the vid card area tends to get really warm.

[Bobfantastic]

Qviri- the dimensions are 133mm from the bottom of the case to the bottom of the PSU; 119mm from the top of the motherboard to the bottom of the PSU (not including the CPU socket or the CPU itself); and ~13mm from the top of the PCI bracket to the bottom of the PSU. I figured this was a better measurement, as the graphics card extends a little above the bracket. The clearance, with this particular card, is about 5mm (so not quite enough room for an HR-03 ). Fiddling with motherboard spacers might net you an extra mil or two, so long as there is still space between the motherboard and the tray.

Hope this helps!

[qviri]

Hope this helps!

Brilliant, thanks a lot.

[MrNeutrino]

Hey Bobfantastic,

I'm curious to find out a few things about your setup as well.

* Could you share your idle / load temps for the CPU and case, with the HSF in that orientation?

* How stable and sturdy does the 2xHDD mount area feel after you cut off one of the support bars to fit the NH-U9F? Does it feel like (or better yet, if you're tried it) the half-supported HDD area may vibrate a bit more if you were to attach one or two drives there?

Ok, I've put the whole machine together (for now ).
I went for the Noctua NH-U9F, and then set about cutting out the beam.
Sure enough, it fitted beautifully- a few mm clearance on each side, and lined up well with the (removed) vent grills on the back.
However, you'll notice I said 'fitted'. It doesn't anymore, now that all the bits have arrived Ultrachrome, you were right. The corner of the Seasonic S12-380 was about 2mm too low to clear the heatsink. I did try brute-forcing it, and eventually managed to get the lid on the case, but almost as soon as I managed that I realised that it wasn't a good idea at all.

* If you were able to close the lid from top (presumably by letting the top part of the fins bend down a little), why the concern?

Put differently, why not manually (using a plier) bend down the upper 1-2 fins from a corner of the heatsink so it fits under the PSU?

2mm sounds like a trivial amount of height to regain clearance for with this type of heatsink. This way you can fit it 90 degrees from the way you have it now - fan blowing out the back of the case.

[Bobfantastic]

Hi MrNeutrino,

I'm running the Vista RC1 at the moment, and I couldnt get speedfan to play nicely with it, so the only temps I have are from the temp sensor built into the case- the sensor itself is jammed in between the heatpipes in the base of the noctua. The display on the front of the case reads 26 degrees C at idle, rising to 31-32 degrees C under load (this is around 5-6 degrees lower than I used to get from this processor, being cooled by an AC freezer 64 pro). I dont know about case temps, but it seems to be about the same as ambient; there is no rear exhaust fan, and I cut out the grill as well so there's just a huge hole in the back of the case. I have a noctua NF-800 that I was planning to put in, but it just wasn't needed.

With no drives installed, the bays can twist a little more than they could when the beam was still there. With an optical drive installed, the whole assembly stiffens up; I would expect that with both a HDD and an optical drive hard-mounted, there is a chance of resonance, however I dont think that is affected by the beam. I think the chances of the drive bay assembly falling out because there's only half a beam on one side are absolutely zero.

The problem with the cooler was that the PSU overlapped the cooler almost right up to the heatpipes- had it been at the edge of the fins, then bending them would be fine, but it was impossible that close to the join between fins and pipes. Once everything was installed, the PSU was actually tilting up and twising the back of the case because of the cooler- when I put the lid on, the corner of the PSU gouged the inside of the case.

I'm quite happy with the way it's running at the moment- the NH-U9F blows towards the graphics card, and from there the PSU fan acts as the exhaust for both the CPU and the GPU. This means that I can leave the VF-900 at minimum on the Fanmate without worrying about the heat, as there are three fans cooling the card quietly.

Hope this helps.

[MrNeutrino]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Bobfantastic!

I presume the sensor and the 26 / 31-32c temp. you are reporting then, is the CPU temp. That sounds awfully low (in a good way).

A suggestion / experiment worth considering. You may want to re-install that 120mm case fan in the back blowing inward. Such a positive / high pressure setup may help actively bring in more cool air. (BTW, in that case, you may also need to / want to flip your front case fan to blow outward, if the air pressure buildup is not helping much. This may lower the pressure while still providing the CPU / VGA area with plenty of cool air.)

In my few year old home-brewed PC, I have a similar setup. Haven't seen much if any noise difference with the internal fans moving the marginally more pressurized air. However, the case and esp. CPU temps. did drop by a few degrees when I first set this up a year or two back. Just a thought.

Good to know that if I'm not going to be moving my case much, that sturdiness is not much of an issue. Yeah, I wasn't concerned about things falling out as I was about - as you guessed - vibration related issues leading to HDD reliability. I might upgrade my initial 500G WD HDD setup to include the 150G raptor. At that point, suspension will not be much of an option. Hence my question.

I see your point re: clearance - closer to the heatpipes the fin made contact to the PSU, the riskier it would be to try to still bend it downward.

Thanks to poor way in which this low-cost case has been designed (read: running support bars straight over the CPU socket, thereby letting the upper half of the case in front of the 120mm fan go completely waste!), I guess you can't have it all without additional mods.

[Bobfantastic]

No problem- that's the whole idea!
Yes, those temps are as close as I can easily get to the core temperature- and I believe that they're not very far from being correct, based on the previous (verified) temps with an inferior cooler.

I'm not going to use the 120mm fan at all- this PC is cold; about 10-15 degrees above ambient. The added airflow from the 120mm may help squeeze out an extra degree or two, but really- 32 under load is pretty damn cold already! Oh, and there is NO front case fan- only moving parts are the PSU fan (very quiet), the GPU fan (probably the loudest part, although the whole thing is quieter than the street outside so it's as close to silent as I'll ever be able to check), and the CPU fan (eerily silent- it's like witchcraft; you can feel the air, and you can see the blades spinning, but there's no way I can hear it!)

As for extra suspension- I had toyed with the idea of hanging the drive in the void on the other side of the case, i.e. behind the PCI slots on the motherboard, where my PSU cables are now. There's enough space, certainly, but you'd need to be careful about the PSU leads (modular would be best).

You can't blame the designers for the support beam- after all, if they'd intended a tower heatsink, they would not have included the removable motherboard tray! I'm sure an enterprising SPCR-er with some spare metal could fold up a bar, rather than a beam, that would support that side of the bays while snaking around the CPU socket... Anyway, modding is most of the fun- that and the satisfaction of a PC you can't hear!

[Bane]

I'm new here and I'm working on a couple of Microfly boxes. I was wondering if anyone has tried the Silverstone NT06-lite in this case.

[[F]bernZ]

NT06 won't fit without modifications.

[Bane]

Not even the NT06-Lite, which is the same as the NT06, but is fan less?

[[F]bernZ]

Correct. 3mm too high.

My XP90 (at 75mm) barely squeezes in. The 78mm tall (125.4 x 78 x 148 mm) NT06 will not make it under the lip under the 120mm fan. Then there's the problem of just 1, maybe 2mm height to deal with in terms of the space underneath the support beams.

[Shingoshi]

Correct. 3mm too high.

My XP90 (at 75mm) barely squeezes in. The 78mm tall (125.4 x 78 x 148 mm) NT06 will not make it under the lip under the 120mm fan. Then there's the problem of just 1, maybe 2mm height to deal with in terms of the space underneath the support beams.

Would someone please measure the distance from the center pins on the base, to the outer-most reach of the heatpipes. I need to know if this will work in my case. My processor socket sits right against the wall of the case (with marginal clearance). If these pipes are inclined steeply enough, I should be able to use this heatsink. That is, if the pipes don't extend too far beyond the motherboard's edge.

Thank you very much in advance!
Shingoshi