Assisted motorless watercooling concept

The alternative to direct air cooling

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wwenze
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Assisted motorless watercooling concept

Post by wwenze » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:53 pm

Image

It is largely the same as pumpless watercooling that makes use of convection due to temperature difference.

But what I've added to speed up this process is the heat-exchanging block which incorporates a peltier. The peltier causes one pipe to be cooler than the other. The much greater temperature difference speeds up the convection process. And the CPU gets cooler water.

hulubei
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Post by hulubei » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:09 am

Very nice, but who is supposed to cool the peltier unit?

wwenze
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Post by wwenze » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:01 am

hulubei wrote:Very nice, but who is supposed to cool the peltier unit?
The water... on the left.

Spunjji
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Post by Spunjji » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:05 am

That looks very interesting - I'm not greatly knowledgeable in the area of water/peltier cooling, but it seems to me that this system would require a larger radiator to account for the additional thermal load - and if that is the case, would this not then have a negative effect on overall cooling performance due to increased flow resistance?

cAPSLOCK
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Post by cAPSLOCK » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:33 am

I don't know much about peltiers other than the fact that they use lots of power (30-50W I believe), that power has to come from the PSU which gets hotter, and the power goes somewhere, probably into the watercooling loop. What I'm saying is that a pump is probably the more efficient solution :D The idea is interesting though, and if you can a practical test would definetly be interesting.

ultrachrome
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Post by ultrachrome » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:33 pm

Another non-expert chiming in...

The hot side of the peltier needs to be cooled. The heat it creates has to go somewhere. You can't cool it if you are exposing it to heated water.

zds
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Re: Assisted motorless watercooling concept

Post by zds » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:38 pm

wwenze wrote:But what I've added to speed up this process is the heat-exchanging block which incorporates a peltier. The peltier causes one pipe to be cooler than the other. The much greater temperature difference speeds up the convection process. And the CPU gets cooler water.
Intriguing concept indeed. There are few caveats, tho: the water flow must be so slow that peltier elements can pump heat faster than flowing water circulates it. Otherwise it will end up just heating the water. What I mean is that water can contain *a lot* of heat, so even if it flows like 1 liter per minute, it's still very hard for any peltier to pump the heat out before the heated water comes back to cold side and vice versa. OTOH, radiator becomes more effective as temperature raises, so is might be possible to reach an equilibrium at some point.

In addition to that you need to make the loop very unrestrictive.. something like Reserator tower might work. More like thin vertical two-channel reservoir than traditional cpu block and tubing and use some kind of valves to make sure water has only one way to flow.

Also the radiator and peltiers need to be seriously overpowered. If you plan to pump for example 300 watts worth heat continuously (to make peltiers pump faster than water circulates the heat back) you need to throw in 1500-3000 watts worth Qmax and undervolt the peltiers. Then you can pump some 3-10 times the heat than the TECs generate. This is not as insane as it sounds, as in this kind of configuration TECs would consume just some 30-100W of electricity and you can get 320W Qmax elements at $25-$30 apiece. I am in process of getting some 1500W worth Qmax for my own experiment, and I count myself being at least somewhat sane ;-).

While being intriguing, I have to say it needs a lot of money to test it out and then there's no certainty that it will work. But if you can afford to take the risk, it will definitely be educating.

What I would test first is a bit altered version of your system.. put the peltiers between CPU and the water loop and have water flow only through the hot side. This way the peltiers have to pump only the heat generated by the CPU, not something they have already pumped before. As radiator effectiveness increases linearly in relation to temperature gradient, this might even keep CPU at reasonable low temps.

You just have to prepare the hot side and the whole water loop to stand high temperatures.. The CPU can very well survive some 60-70 degrees of Celcius, but at that point water in the loop would be almost boiling. Definitely not for the faint of heart.. And almost calls for full metal loop, since I bet most plastics will not stand 80+ degrees continuous temps reliably..

But, if you want to try those out without spending hundreds of euros/dollars to it, you can do a simulation with like 1/5th of 1/10th of the final power. If you divide all variables with the same number, you should get pretty close simulation of what would happen in real system. All variables here means heat produced by heat source, radiator size, water block/heatsink dissipation area, tubing cross section area and total peltier Qmax.

So, buy a single powerful TEC module, like 170-320 watts Qmax and then scale all the other parts similarly.. like simulate CPU die with resistor that produces 8W of heat etc.

And post us images and results :-).

bobo5195
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Post by bobo5195 » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:40 am

I don't think linear scale will work as it is more complicated than that by a long way. Probably could work out a relation but for what? processor temp, flow rate.

In any case i don't think it will work. Probably could use some equations and such to prove it but that would take to long.

Im sure there was some one who tried this using a danger den maze and peltier on top of his cpu. The rad cooled the water and then the water got heated by cpu + pelt combo. Worked although cooling was nothing spectacular.

zds
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Post by zds » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:44 am

bobo5195 wrote:I don't think linear scale will work as it is more complicated than that by a long way. Probably could work out a relation but for what? processor temp, flow rate.
Ah, I was a bit unclear: I only meant that heat transfer from radiator to air is roughly linear to difference between radiator and air temp. The rest really is too complicated for me to even guess the scaling.

Naturally heat also radiates, not just conducts, and it happens to second power counting from 0 degrees Kelvin, IIRC, but in these temperatures you can just skip it.

bobo5195
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Post by bobo5195 » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:46 am

Looking at my old notes velocity is proportional to rayliegh number square rooted. Rayliegh number in this case could be alot of things.

It actualy turns out the temprature correlation is a bit more than delta T as the water expands a little (beta) but we could ignore this effect. More importantly is proportional to about L^3 of the heated pipe length.

The rad needs to be carefully speced in this case to lower restricition. Using the standard mass flow water = mass flow air as a guidance means that for 300W your going to need alot of air, so maybe a 2 fan rad, i'll need to check Bill A's graphs.

I would imagine that if you can correlate the ideal water flow rate you can use bernoulli (sp?) to work out what restriction will do as the restricted flow will get converted to back pressure.

Isn't radiation proportional to T^4? either way likily to be insignificant, there must be a geeky post somewhere to prove it.

The system is in equilibrum so the idea of moving the water around so the heat will not catch up with it is not modeling what is really happening.

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