Hose Size and a few more questions?

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:12 pm

Ok. I have read the guide that is stickied in this forum, but I noticed that it was kind of dated?

Here's a few questions hopefully someone can answer.

I was going to go with the following components for a WC setup:

ThermoChill PA160 (on the reference of some people on my other thread and Marci)
AseTek Waterblocks for everything else (The Antartica CPU block, VGA, NB)
AseTek 12V Extreme Res/Pump combo since I don't have enough space for a seperate resevoir. A closed loop system would be ok too but I just figured this would be pretty good.

These use 1/2" OD by 3/8" ID tubing. These are also push fittings... are these ok? I noticed BSPT on the Rad... what is this? I can't seem to find fittings and explanations for these anywhere. Is the hose size good enough for a WC rig? Or do I need 1/2" ID?

I have a prescott 3.4 GHZ (first Generation of Prescotts), an X850XTPE, and an Asus P5AD2-E Premium.

I'm new to all this so any other relevant links would be ok too, I'm not afraid to do some reading! But I would like expert opinions on this too.

Thank you very much all!

Marci · Post by **Marci** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:04 am

Fittings for the rad are available from http://www.thermochill.com/acatalog/the ... ories.html

Hose size is fine...

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:31 am

yeah sorry about that, the guide is getting a bit old and while a lot of it still holds true, it really could use with an update. unfortunately full-time work has left me little time to play around with all these fun things so for now i'll just answer some of your questions

1/2" OD / 3/8" ID tubing is just fine. they are, in general, much more flexible and thus much easier to work with than 1/2" ID tubing, for which i honestly fail to see the point in a non-extreme domestic computer watercooling system.

BSPT is, iirc, the specification for the thread on the rad. BSP is the type of thread and the T stands for tapered, which means the end of the thread is slightly thinner than the base of the thread. generally if you match it up it'll be fine, but if say you're fitting a BSPP (i think? P for parallel) female thread onto a BSPT mail thread, you'll need to use plumber's goop (silicone sealant) or lots of teflon tape

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:20 pm

Marci wrote:Fittings for the rad are available from http://www.thermochill.com/acatalog/the ... ories.html

Hose size is fine...

Thank you very much. I must have looked at that page 1000 times and went right over those...

With these fittings, I will need hose clamps, correct?

Thanks in advance!

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:23 pm

chylld wrote:yeah sorry about that, the guide is getting a bit old and while a lot of it still holds true...

1/2" OD / 3/8" ID tubing is just fine. they are, in general, much more flexible and thus much easier to work with than 1/2" ID tubing, for which i honestly fail to see the point in a non-extreme domestic computer watercooling system.

BSPT is, iirc, the specification for the thread on the rad. BSP is the type of thread and the T stands for tapered, which means the end of the thread is slightly thinner than the base of the thread. generally if you match it up it'll be fine, but if say you're fitting a BSPP (i think? P for parallel) female thread onto a BSPT mail thread, you'll need to use plumber's goop (silicone sealant) or lots of teflon tape

Ok, so with the connectors that are located on the link page that Marci gave me, will I need hose clamps or something to seal or will the hose self-seal around the barb?

You mention it's pointless to use 1/2" ID tubing except in extreme computer watercooling systems... what exactly does that mean? Are you talking about the 120.3 Rads with 6 fans, etc?

And I meant no disrespect when I said it was getting dated, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing important, pertinant information that has come out since then... that guide actually helped me out with the basics, I just had extra questions!

Thanks!

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:24 am

no offence taken toad

with the barbed connectors on that accessories page, yes you will still need hose clamps. the only situation i've encountered when you don't need hose clamps with those type of fittings is when the fit is so tight you have to heat the hose in hot water to actually get it onto the fitting! if you can push it on easily when the hose is cold though, i highly recommend clamps.

as for which type of clamp, these days there are lots of types out there (check out mcmaster-carr's website) and chances are your personal style preference will be the deciding factor. if functionality is your #1 priority though, then i recommend worm-drive clamps as they can be tightened an awfully great deal and have worked flawlessly for me.

by 'extreme watercooling systems' i don't mean big rads or loads of fans, i mean high pressure. for example, some people put 2 or 3 pumps in series for redundancy and/or performance. the advantage of high pressure systems is that you can get spectacular performance out of jet-impingement-type waterblocks like cather's cascade/g4, and to a lesser extent, the antarctica block you'll be getting. the problem with using 'skinny' tubing in such a system is that the tubing will provide more resistance to the water flow and reduce your high pressure advantage.

CrustyDemon_R1 · Post by **CrustyDemon_R1** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:08 am

I purchased and received today 7/16"ID/5/8"OD Tygon tubing to fit over 1/2" barbs. This stuff is very flexible before kinking/spoiling.

I based my descision on this post (No ThirtyEight) by Cathar http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showt ... ge=3&pp=15

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:18 am

Ok. I am now also looking at the DangerDen TDX block and their Maze4 GPU block.

I am still leaning to the 12V Extreme pump from AseTek as it puts a pump and res in one, meaning less tubing and hassle for me.

I know the pump has a 1020 L/H flow and a 2.4m head.

With this pump I'm kind of forced into the 3/8" ID as that's what the push fittings require. Will this reduce the performance of this pump or the waterblocks? I'm trying to find performances of the TDX vs. the Antarctica, and the Maze4GPU to the VGA block of AseTek, but haven't been so lucky.

Basically from what I'm reading is that 1/2" OD hosing is really meant for hardcore OC'ers for maximum performance, correct? What I don't get is that this can't improve temperatures any more than a few degrees C, right?

And I did read that post over on those forums... very informative on the 7/16" stuff. Again, I would love to run that, but the pump tends to limit my size of the hose...

Thanks all!

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:32 am

Just a quick question: Will the PA160 be alright with this setup? I'm re-reading the post by Marci about the performance of this Rad and he says he uses 500W of power... Surely I can't be near that with the CPU and VGA together... but I just wanted to make sure.

P4 Prescott and X850XTPE plus pump heat if I read correctly...

FollowTheMusic · Post by **FollowTheMusic** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:05 pm

You can always change hose size with adapters, don't let that limit your choices. Although I prefer to avoid it simply for aesthetics and possibly space.

1/2" ID is probably overkill. Consider it if you plan on adding many elements to your loop (CPU, GPU, Northbridge, HDD, etc.) You probably aren't at that stage, but it's good to plan for the future with watercooling.

Even so, 3/8" ID is probably fine.

I don't know anything about AseTek blocks, but it's hard to go wrong with Dangerden -- good to really good quality with bearable prices.

P.S. Always use hose clamps, everywhere! Even when they seem redundant. For freakin' 8 cents and 1 minute of your time, you can save yourself a big headache later.

P.P.S. BSP = British Standard Pipe.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:09 pm

Thank you Music... I appreciate the info there. I don't plan on doing really anything but CPU/GPU and possibly NB in the future if a decent block comes out that uses the Intel "loops" on my board... Zipties just don't cut it for me.

I will use hose clamps everywhere there is not an AseTek "push" fitting.

I am pretty much going for DangerDen products as they are the same price but I have seen more reviews for their products... the only part I'm still debating is the Maze4GPU and the VGA block from AseTek...

Thanks!

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:48 am

Hello,

I'm still getting stuff together for my watercooling setup.

So far I am going for the Maze4 GPU and the TDX from DangerDen, and the Thermochill PA160 rad.

I am going to probably use 3/8" or 1/2" ID depending on my pump, which is my next question.

How much flow does a watercooling system need? I am looking at a few pumps, and can't figure out which is best for me.

I was looking at the AseTek Extreme which does 1020 l/h, the plain Hydor L35 at 1200 l/h, or the plain D5, which I haven't found a rating for yet.

Do I even need a pump this powerful? Or could I go to the Ehiem 1048, or something smaller like the Hydor L20? I know I want a high head-pressure on the pump more than anything, but I'm confused on which way to go or how to compare these pumps.

The main goal of this is a quiet to virtually silent PC. I need to make sure this setup can handle a good amount of heat, though, for future use.

FYI, if I go with a plain pump (no res built in), I will most likely do some sort of T-line or something like it in order to fill the system. Is this difficult to do?

Thanks in advance!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:58 am

You should read this pump review and listen to the sound recordings - http://www.cooling-masters.com/articles-33-0.html (you will have to use babelfish to translate). There are also good reviews at www.systemcooling.com. I'm just starting with watercooling, but firmly believe the d5 (I have the swiftech version) is the way to go. I'm running my system at setting 3 and it is very quiet. I would also stop by www.xtremesystems.org as they seem to think highly of the aquaxtreme 50z. From my research, the 50z is noisier and will not last as long as the d5. With either of these pumps you will need 1/2" tubing. I'm using 7/16ID 5/8OD tygon and even though it can be somewhat of a struggle to get the tubing over the barbs, I don't think there will ever be a leak problem at the hose/barb connections. Still, you shoud use clamps.

I never worried too much about flow rates, because after deciding that the d5 would be the quietest, it also happened to have one of the highest flow rates. For a quiet system, the pump is the most critical component.

The other sites can help out with flow rates and what would be best for your system. Of course different forums will have different opinions.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:13 pm

Thank you for the reply. Your post from the other thread about the pump is what really caught my eye for this pump. I want quiet, and if I can get it from this pump, then great. And I did notice that it had a very high head and flow rate.

Question about your setup: Which CPU block did you get?

I am now struggling (after reading through your links you gave me and their forums) as to which one I should get. I don't want to make the pump have to be on full-tilt just to move the water in my system. I am thinking about 3/8" ID hose for the system so I don't have to drill holes in my case for the rad I am mounting on the outside of my case.

I was looking at the DangerDen TDX, but I saw that the Storm is supposed to be way better than that. However, I noticed that it is a jet-impingement block. The last thing I want to do is to kill my system temps because I got the wrong block for my quiet setup.

Any ideas on this? Your suggestions have been great so far!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:10 pm

Hi,

I have a storm rev 2, bi x-flow w/panaflo 120x38 L1A, and a swiftech micro res. I originally ordered an apogee, but decided to get a storm as it seems to be one of the best performers if not the best. I'm not sure if the storm is that much better than some of the others, but it is extremely well made and does come with both 3/8 and 1/2 barbs. At first I was going to get an mcp350/laing dcc, but the d5 is just a few dollars more.

I've since read that the bip is better in most systems than a bi x-flow, but I haven't seen a convincing argument for one or the other. The thermochills are supposed to be better, but more expensive. I could easily have spent several more weeks doing research, but so far I've been really impressed with the technology. My graphics card is now the noisiest part of my system.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:25 pm

Ok, thanks for the reply!

I am going to go for the Storm block. DangerDen has a pretty good price on their pump, so I might get that from them while I'm getting my Thermochill rad.

I am going to test tubing sizes tonight to see what will and won't work.

Is there an easy way to convert the pump to 3/8 that you know of without introducing 2 more connections?

Thanks!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:26 pm

Have no idea about that. The the laing dcc is pretty quiet judging from the recordings at www.cooling-masters.com. If you go with 3/8 I would consider it although my first choice would be to adapt your case for 5/8OD tubing.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:29 pm

Well I just went to Lowe's and I bought a foot of both 3/8" and 1/2". The 1/2" will pass through the PCI slot as long as it is flattened. I suppose with a little bit of electrical tape I can make sure the hose won't get cut. I really, REALLY don't want to drill into my P180 case.

Can you give me an idea of how the pump connections are with tubing? What kind of fittings, and are they interchangeable?

If you also have any pics, that would be great. I've looked on the sites that sell this pump and I can't figure out how the hose connects to the pump.

Thank you very much for all your help!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:10 pm

This photo shows the pump connections with smooth band bolt clamps and the micro res with plastic clamps. You may have already seen the other clamps I considered here - http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=29921
I'm using the smooth bands at all connections now. You can see how the tubing stretches over the pump barb leaving the ID of the tubing close to the ID of the barb, supposedly creating less turbulence. The swiftech barbs are interchangeable and have o-rings (same as on the storm). The pump barbs are fixed at 1/2". No way this is going to leak as long as the swiftech barbs are tightened properly. Hope this helps.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:23 pm

It helps a lot. I really appreciate it!

I am leaning toward getting the 1/2" from Lowe's. Any objections there? It's just $0.28 a foot vs the $3+ a foot plus shipping I've seen elsewhere.

How water-tight is the seal on the resivoir fill port? I am still at college and I move my computer 4-6 times a year and I just wanted to know if I can transport the machine with the res in a horizontal position, or if this would leak and require me to drain the system.

Also, do you have to have the resi at the highest point? I am looking to have mine pretty much at the lowest right next to the pump.

Also, since you've been having fun with your toys, what are your temps like if you've got it set up?

Thanks!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:05 pm

I would use one of these tubing brands:

tygon - I ordered mine from www.sidewindercompters.com for $2/ft
clearflex
masterkleer - $.59/ft from www.cooltechnica.com

I wouldn't compromise with tubing especially as masterkleer is a recommended brand and is fairly cheap.

The top seal in the micro res does not have an o-ring. I would think about using a t-line or another reservoir. Try this link for info about t-lines - http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... hp?t=54331

My reservoir is located at the bottom close to the pump. In order to bleed the system I had to shift the radiator around to release trapped air, but you can do this before mounting everything.

My temps with normal usage have varied from 32 to 36 as I occasionally experiment with the pump setting and fan speed. With 2xcpuburn it never goes over 42 - with air cooling it approached 60.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:59 pm

Ok, I'll look at that tubing. I can handle $.59 a foot, but $2 a foot is a little out of my price range.

I was considering a T-line but I'm not sure how to implement it. My T-line will NOT be at the top of my system... it will be right down low with the pump. And I am also not sure where to put it after it's done being used... It's a shame I can't "disconnect" the line from the T after I'm done filling and use a closed system.

One more question: What do you think about a fluid like FluidXP?

My parents are certain I'm going to fry my system with this setup. A non-corrosive-non-conductive fluid might just be safe...

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:42 pm

Take a look at the xtremesystems link for additive advice. I'm just using the swiftech product.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:49 pm

I... err.... posted before I read the link.

That was a very helpful link and I appreciate it. I think I am going to go for the Zenerx stuff and see how it does. Hopefully it will be compatible with all my stuff.

Thank you for all your help. The cooltechnica link was absolutely great. Found stuff for my T-line and everything. I think I'm going to give that a go before I even touch a res. Seems like it will be easier to manage in my setup.

Again, thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it!

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:50 pm

FG,

That guide that you posted for me over on XtremeSystems...

Did you go through with the cleaning procedure that he has listed? Seems to me that taking apart all that stuff kind of introduces error into the parts as O-rings tend to unseat easier the more you mess with them...???

Thanks!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:25 pm

T,

I read the cleaning part after I started using my system. I'm planning to do it just to be on the safe side, but it sure sounds like a lot of extra work. The storm comes with a tool for taking it apart so it probably won't hurt anything to take it apart. The storm has a lot of very small water jets so you don't want anything in the radiator to flow over to the block and get stuck. I don't know about the filter. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere else. Just don't know at this point.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:40 am

Yeah, I may run through the cleaning cycle once and leave it at that depending on how dirty the system looks... repeating just doesn't jive with my want to get this thing up and running

Thanks!

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:23 pm

Ok, I have just received some of my stuff. I got the pump and the two water blocks.

I also bought the Swiftech MCB-120 Pass-through kit. On Voyeurmods.com it listed it as being 1/2", but it's 1/2" OD, not ID. So, my question is this:

Here is what the kit looks like: http://www.svc.com/mcb-120.html

First, what kind of metal is this? It's really heavy, and shiny. It might be chromed steel, I'm not sure. I don't want to add any kind of corrosion catalyst to my setup. As of right now it's all copper.

Second, what will reducing the size to 3/8" to go to/from the rad do to performance? I will not be reducing the tubing all the way to the rad. It will go from 1/2" to 3/8" just for the pass-through to the outside, where I will go back from 3/8" to 1/2". Then it will go to the rad.

Will this be a large problem? Should I just not worry about the conversion and just leave the PCI plate open until I can figure something out and just run straight 1/2"?

Third, if I did reduce, I know plastic or copper is the best. However, I have been to Ace and Lowe's and can only find brass, and this is with a two piece system that is just prone to leaks. I can't find a copper reducer anywhere. Anyone know of a place to get one?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Clarified tubing to/from rad.

Butcher · Post by **Butcher** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:25 pm

thetoad30 wrote:First, what kind of metal is this? It's really heavy, and shiny. It might be chromed steel, I'm not sure. I don't want to add any kind of corrosion catalyst to my setup. As of right now it's all copper.

Probably nickel plated brass.

Reducing to 3/8" will cut flow quite a bit, you might want to just leave the PCI plate off and run 1/2".

Don't worry about a copper reducer, just get brass or plastic. Plastic would be better as plastic fittings tend to have a wider bore.

You can get one-piece plastic reducers here: http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgP ... 32,133,134

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:49 pm

Yeah, I was thinking that the flow probabl would be reduced by a substantial amount.

I think I am just going to leave it open and perhaps seal it with electrical tape or something of the sort.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your help on this!