Athlon 64 X2 3800+/4000+ or Intel E6300

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:31 pm

Hi all. I am trying to help a friend built a decently powerful, quiet, cool PC. Most of the components are chosen, but the tricky one is the CPU (and thus the motherboard too). The PC will be used for everyday tasks without much complicated or extreme processor-intensive applications. In essence this includes: word processing, email and web browsing, listening to music, occassional photo editing, occassional videos (DVD and video files). None of these more complex tasks: video editing, complex photo editing, 3D applications, gaming. Also worth noting - he wants integrated graphics instead of getting a dedicated card.

The two options are going for either an AM2 Athlon 64 X2 (3800+ or 4000+) or Intel E6300. AMD has the advantages that:
- 3800+ quite a bit cheaper than E6300 (4000+ same price as E6300)
- motherboards for the AMD are cheaper and better choice (locally)
- integrated graphics are Geforce 6150 which are exceedingly better than the X3000

So in essence the question is whether the Intel is worth the extra money over the X2 for the tasks at hand? Either than some performance benefits, are there any other advanteges for the Intel, and what is the future-proof potential of both?

Also, how are the two in terms of running temperatures and cooling requirements? The cooler which are on the shortlist are the Zalman 9700NT, the Thermaltake Big Typhoon and the Scythe Infinity (though this is significantly more expensive). Which one would be the one to go for in terms of both cooling and silence?

Some additional info, if it helps:
- will all go in an Antec P150
- two SATA II HDDs will be installed; a smaller 80GB "Windows/Applications" drive and a larger 250GB "working & backup" drive
- 2x 512MB DDR2-800 RAM
- the usual optical drive, FDD etc.

Any and all assistance and suggestions are appreciated!
X

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:59 am

The PC will be used for everyday tasks without much complicated or extreme processor-intensive applications.

In that case, the X2 3800 will be perfect for that.

So in essence the question is whether the Intel is worth the extra money over the X2 for the tasks at hand?

IMO, no.

what is the future-proof potential of both?

Well, it depends if that future includes CPU-intensive tasks. Future-proofing is a bit of a red herring if you ask me, the PC industry moves too fast.

Also, how are the two in terms of running temperatures and cooling requirements? The cooler which are on the shortlist are the Zalman 9700NT, the Thermaltake Big Typhoon and the Scythe Infinity (though this is significantly more expensive). Which one would be the one to go for in terms of both cooling and silence?

You may be able to keep the stock cooler, the X2 (esp. 65W) runs very cool indeed. It depends how quiet your friend wants it and how much he is willing to pay. The stock cooler may be quiet *enough*.

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:28 am

Hi there and thanks for the prompt reply! Before going further I wanted to add two things:

1. no overclocking will be done. I doubt any underclocking either - just running the CPUs stock.
2. quite importantly, the PC must have DVI output. From what I have found, only the AMD option (with the Geforce 6150) has this integrated. That means that going Intel would mandate a graphics card which would add to the cost and heat.

what is the future-proof potential of both?

Well, it depends if that future includes CPU-intensive tasks. Future-proofing is a bit of a red herring if you ask me, the PC industry moves too fast.

Not really in terms of CPU-intensive tasks. The only potentially more intensive work will be occassional use of Photoshop CS3 (depends on how demanding it is) and the occassional HD video playback.

You may be able to keep the stock cooler, the X2 (esp. 65W) runs very cool indeed. It depends how quiet your friend wants it and how much he is willing to pay. The stock cooler may be quiet *enough*.

As quiet as can be. I do not think a stock cooler will suffice for the silence requirements and an aftermarket cooler is being budgeted for.

X

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:59 am

I do not think a stock cooler will suffice for the silence requirements and an aftermarket cooler is being budgeted for.

Of the 3 HSFs you have listed the Thermaltake Big Typhoon is probably the best combination of value and quiet. Usually we recommend the Scythe Ninja but it might not be available in your country.

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:38 am

jaganath wrote:
I do not think a stock cooler will suffice for the silence requirements and an aftermarket cooler is being budgeted for.
Of the 3 HSFs you have listed the Thermaltake Big Typhoon is probably the best combination of value and quiet. Usually we recommend the Scythe Ninja but it might not be available in your country.

Hi and thanks again for the prompt reply. The Ninja is indeed unavailable here. However the Scythe Infinity is, which got a rave review here at SPCR. IIRC it said that it was "silent at full speed" and something along the lines of "that is very unusual for coolers tested at SPCR". It is not much more than the 9700NT and about 20% more than the Thermaltake.

Cheers,
X

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:18 am

Hi again....been doing some research on locally available products and pricing and just a few more comments to add.

1. in terms of CPU pricing, the X2 4200+ is about the same as the E6300 (not the 4000+ as originally thought). This means it will be 2.2GHz speed and not 2.0GHz like the 3800+/4000+
2. if going Intel, it will definitely need a dedicated graphics card. if AMD, it needs to be one with the Geforce 6150 which has DVI out, such as the Asus boards
3. some Intel boards do have some very nice features, such as the Asus LGA775 boards having eSATA on-board.
4. the E6300 definitely outperforms the AMD in all benchmarks except perhaps memory specific ones.

It is not really the speed which is a possible worry with the AMD, as I believe the 4200+ (and even 3800+) will more than suffice....it is that buzzword "futureproofing". Isn't the X2 (even the AM2 version) much older than the E6300?

Cheers,
X

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:03 am

4. the E6300 definitely outperforms the AMD in all benchmarks

I never said that it didn't.

It is not really the speed which is a possible worry with the AMD, as I believe the 4200+ (and even 3800+) will more than suffice....it is that buzzword "futureproofing". Isn't the X2 (even the AM2 version) much older than the E6300?

I don't understand...from what you have described so far, the AM2 X2 will be more than sufficient for everything that this rig is intended to do, now and in the future...so what is there to futureproof?

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:32 am

I don't understand...from what you have described so far, the AM2 X2 will be more than sufficient for everything that this rig is intended to do, now and in the future...so what is there to futureproof?

Point taken. I guess it is more to do the various technologies (of which I've already lost track) rather than performance. Stuff like virtualization, PVT (AMD)/ EDB , EiST, EM64T , WDE , ASC , SMA , ADMB (Intel).

mattcoz · Post by **mattcoz** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:51 am

The X2 has more technologies than your friend will ever need.

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:35 am

One last thing which I need to add which is important - the AM2 X2 processors here are the 90nm version. It will be quite a while until the 65nm processors arrive, which I believe are the EE versions, correct?

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:29 pm

No, the 'EE' or energy efficient X2 chips are independent of the 90 to 65nm die shrink. There are regular and EE versions of the 90nm Athlon64 X2 chips. The newer 65nm chips don't differ from the 90nm chips by much in perfromance or heat generated. Its essentially the same chip, but maybe very slightly slower and built on a different process.

If you're looking for an EE chip, just make sure you get one that says EE or "Energy Efficient" on the box.

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:07 pm

xenithon wrote:Point taken. I guess it is more to do the various technologies (of which I've already lost track) rather than performance. Stuff like virtualization, PVT (AMD)/ EDB , EiST, EM64T , WDE , ASC , SMA, ADMB (Intel).

The AM2 X2's have virtualization, 64-bit instruction set (AMD64/EM64T), and Cool'n'Quiet (EiST).

I looked up the other acronyms and three of the four are just describing various parts of Intel's Core architecture. The only technology that Core 2 processors have that X2's don't is ADMB:

Advanced Digital Media Boost (ADMB) is perhaps the vaguest name of innovations made with the new architecture. Once again it is a matter of widening the execution unit so it doesn't have to divide instructions and thus speed up the calculations. ADMB is name for a set of additions Intel has made in the form of SSE4 and adjustments of the core for faster calculations of these, and previous generations of SSE. The connection to the name ADMB comes from that several of these instructions are frequently used when coding and decoding videos and music. To improve the execution rate of these Intel has made it possible for Core to calculate up to 128 bit long instructions per cycle, where previous generations had to divide these into two 64 bit instructions, which would of course result in twice the number of cycles needed for calculation. In the execution unit it has also added 2 SSE units, up to a total of 3, compared to only 2 in AMD's K8 architecture and only 1 with earlier generations of Intel processors.

http://www.nordichardware.com/Reviews/? ... ivelse=485

So unless you're planning to do a lot of media encoding/decoding, the extra cost of an Intel platform (CPU, mobo, discrete gfx card) is not worth it in this case.

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:40 pm

Hi again and thanks for that great information.

Something else came to light though which is crucial: integrated graphics are now not an option, whether Intel or AMD. Reason is that the only one which is powerful enough to negate a dedicated card and has DVI, is the Geforce 6150â€¦.however that DVI port comes at the expense of a serial port. The latter is vital though and cannot be left out as it is used by the UPS.

So, in essence, with the dedicated graphics requirement out of the question, it is now a toss up between the E6300 and the 3800+/4200+ only in terms of CPU choice. The E6300 seems to be getting more appealing because the CPU is the same price as the 4200+, a matching motherboard is only around $50 more, dedicated graphics cards will be needed in either case, and the E6300 is a lot newer and more powerful. Add to that the fact that it will be upgrade ready (quad-core ready, using the 775 socket; whereas AM2 will change to AM3 or AM2+ IIRC for the newer chips).

X

EDIT: to add, certain motherboards for the E6300 such as the Asus boards, which seemed very appealing due to the feature of having an eSATA port, are a no go too. Just like DVI on the AMD boards; the eSATA port comes in lieu of a serial port, which is required.

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:40 am

Here you go; now you can get any mobo you want (as long as you can spare a PCI slot)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6815166003

EDIT: Just saw your location. Hopefully, you're able to find a cheap PCI to serial port card like the one above.

Add to that the fact that it will be upgrade ready (quad-core ready, using the 775 socket; whereas AM2 will change to AM3 or AM2+ IIRC for the newer chips).

AMD claims that their new processors will have DDR2 controllers and be backwards compatible.

lm · Post by lm » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:17 am

xenithon wrote: - two SATA II HDDs will be installed; a smaller 80GB "Windows/Applications" drive and a larger 250GB "working & backup" drive

I'd choose just a single 320GB drive instead. You can partition it to look like 80GB and 240GB if you want.

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:00 am

You can get a PCI serial port, or you can add a usb serial port. Either one should not cost you much and will work with your UPS. I would not let that influence you.

I was under the impression that the new quad core and AM2+ chips will still run on AM2 motherboards. I may be wrong here. Dual core is really nice, but I don't think that quad core will take over as fast as dual core did. There are not as many advantages with Quad as there were with Dual core.

There are some socket 775 boards with DVI ports. The asrock Conroe 945G comes with a DVI card adaptor that you stick in the x16 slot. The intel 950 graphics are fine for anything you plan on doing. No idea what the availability of it is in south africa.

Take a look at the Arctic Cooling Alpine 7 or Alpine 64. They are quiet coolers as long as the system is under low load and you enable the fan speed control. If you don't mind a little extra noise when doing cpu intensive work it will save you money.

To be honest, I don't think you can go wrong with either the intel or AMD. I tend to favor AMD because Cool and Quiet is better than SpeedStep but you will not be undervolting so it should not really matter much.

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:13 am

Hi all,

A few updates: yes, a serial port can be found here (from Sunix).

Cooler wise, Arctic Cooling is not available here. In fact there is very little choice unfortunately. We get Zalman, Thermaltake, Coolermaster and then quite a lot of watercooling.

The Zalman 9700NT is not really that quiet, and the Thermaltake Big Typhoon is pretty much on par. I think the quietest cooler here is the Scythe Infinity. Just need to make sure that it is compatible with the motherboard chosen, as I believe it has certain compatiblity issues (sometimes does not fit at all, and sometimes - such as with the Asus P5B which is one of the boards seriously under Consideration - you are limited to only being able to install it using one orientation).

Cheers,
X

vincentfox · Post by **vincentfox** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:57 am

I'm waiting for the E4300 CPU to come out in a few days.

Nearly the speed of the E6300, but at lower power/heat levels.

Felger Carbon · Post by **Felger Carbon** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:03 am

lm wrote:I'd choose just a single 320GB drive instead. You can partition it to look like 80GB and 240GB if you want.

There are speed and noise benefits to using a different hard drive for your OS and the swap file. Noise because the sudden burst of seeks is almost completely eliminated, speed because the seeks are eliminated and a separate HDD data bus will (usually) be used, allowing concurrent data streams to and from the two HDDs.

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:06 am

And the main reason is safety. All too often the drive housing windows and apps can die, and having the working files on a separate makes it so much easier to recover with an image.

I thought about the E4300, but the E6300 is just a little extra here (roughly $30 more) but exceedingly better.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:38 am

I thought about the E4300, but the E6300 is just a little extra here (roughly $30 more) but exceedingly better.

I wouldn't say exceedingly better, most benchmarks show 5-6% difference at most.

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:59 am

The E4300 is very easy to overclock because it runs a 200mhz (quad pumped 800) bus speed compared to 266 for the E6300.

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:04 pm

Hi again all. Three questions:

#1. if an AMD system is chosen, the mobo would most likely be the Asus M2NPV-MX. If if it an Intel system though, the choice would be between the Asus P5B and the Intel DP965LT. Any suggestions or advice on which of those to go for (non-overclocker, remember

)

#2. I believe that the Scythe Infinity will be the cooler in either case, so I would just like to ask if there are any possible compatibility issues with any of the above boards. I recall reading that the Ninja did not fare well with some boards including the P5B but it will be the Infinity (Ninja not available here).

#3. can also get Gigabyte motherboards, though it is from a different supplier meaning that they won't assemble the PC. Not the biggest of issues but pre-assembly always helps. Anyway, are there any Gigabyte boards (either AMD or Intel) which are worth looking over and above those Asus/Intel boards?

Cheers,
X

EDIT: I took a closer look at the E4300, even if not being overclocked. It may in fact be a great option even at stock speed. In particular I saw the benchmarks here and here. Fact is, the 3800+ would probably suffice in terms of speed, but the Intel has potentially better upgrade potential (in terms of being able to upgrade the CPU at a later stage on the same motherboard).

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:47 am

Hi all,

CPU has been decided. It will be the Intel E4300. Now it is a choice of motherboard, and the two candidates are the Intel DP965LT or the Asus P5B as linked to above.

Any suggestion, advice or opinions on these? I've heard some worrying things about Asus recently in terms of QC and DOA's, and bearing in mind that it will not really be overclocked, the Intel may be good as a "rock-solid" choice....would you guys agree?

matt_garman · Post by **matt_garman** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:11 pm

xenithon wrote:Something else came to light though which is crucial: integrated graphics are now not an option, whether Intel or AMD. Reason is that the only one which is powerful enough to negate a dedicated card and has DVI, is the Geforce 6150â€¦.however that DVI port comes at the expense of a serial port. The latter is vital though and cannot be left out as it is used by the UPS.

The Asus M2NPV-VM has both DVI and a serial port. You can't see the serial port in the pictures because it's enabled by a "dongle" that comes with the board.

I built a computer for my parents using this board; I needed serial as well.

Hope that helps,
Matt

xenithon · Post by **xenithon** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:57 pm

Hi there and thanks, but that is an AMD board I believe, and the CPU has been chosen as the Intel E4300

Two questions about the Asus P5B, which seems appealing for its various features and 3-year warranty (unlike the Intel's 1-year):

1. any known compatibility issues with the P5B and the TT Big Typhoon (going into an Antec P150)?
2. anyone know if the P5B comes with the PCI-slot serial cable?

X

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:42 pm

xenithon wrote:Hi there and thanks, but that is an AMD board I believe, and the CPU has been chosen as the Intel E4300

Two questions about the Asus P5B, which seems appealing for its various features and 3-year warranty (unlike the Intel's 1-year):

1. any known compatibility issues with the P5B and the TT Big Typhoon (going into an Antec P150)?
2. anyone know if the P5B comes with the PCI-slot serial cable?

X

From the pictures of the P5B on Newegg's site it doesn't seem to have a Serial port on the motherboard or a bracket in the accessories. They do have a bracket for two USB ports though.

There are adapters/cables that conver from USB to Serial. There's one on newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6812156003 .
It's not much different in cost than the card that someone else posted earlier except that it won't use up a PCI slot. Just use one of the onboard USB ports or the included USB bracket (which hooks into a USB controller on the mobo) and an adapter to get a Serial port.

adnoto · Post by **adnoto** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:52 pm

xenithon wrote:Add to that the fact that it will be upgrade ready (quad-core ready, using the 775 socket; whereas AM2 will change to AM3 or AM2+ IIRC for the newer chips).

Hello all,

Forgive my noob interruption here but, unless I am mistaken (which is entirely possible), the above quote is, at least, semi-incorrect no? I found this great forum and this thread because I am going to be building my first computer relatively soon and I have some of the same questions our friend Xenithon is having with regard to considering Conroe vs. AM2.

Now it is my understanding, again unless I am reading things incorrectly, that the AM3 CPU's will be backward compatible with socket AM2 mobos and will work with either DDR2 or DDR3 (just not DDR2 and DDR3 sticks at the same time, on the same mobo). In other words socket AM2 mobo + AM3 CPU + DDR2 = good to go. But, AM3 CPU + DDR3 + socket AM2 mobo = no go. Actually no chance for DDR3 on an AM2 mobo period. Correct?

Wiki

ZDNet

Am I reading this issue incorrectly? Am I missing something? If so it would be good to know. I will be posting my own thread soon enough but, for the time being, can one of you experts clarify?

.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:05 pm

adnoto wrote: Am I reading this issue incorrectly? Am I missing something? If so it would be good to know. I will be posting my own thread soon enough but, for the time being, can one of you experts clarify?

.

Yes, AM3 chips will work on AM2 motherboards, but not vice versa. The same is true for the AM2+ which is between the AM2 and AM3 sockets. All it really means is that 4 or 5 years from now, you can get a top of the line processor and still drop it into your motherboard with most of the feature set of the new chip intact (hoepfully).

For Intel, you would have to spend some more and get a new motherboard if the socket changes or if the chip changes drastically (which you might have to do with AMD also).

adnoto · Post by **adnoto** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:22 pm

stromgald wrote:All it really means is that 4 or 5 years from now, you can get a top of the line processor and still drop it into your motherboard with most of the feature set of the new chip intact (hoepfully).

Thanks. I thought I was reading that correctly.

As to the above quote... As I think someone mentioned earlier - I agree that planning for or trying to stay ahead of the curve with "upgrade-ability" is a red herring. I have had my current system for 5 years (a dinosaur) and have only opened the case to add RAM. Once. My hope is that I create a rig that will last me 2 or 3 years, at which time I won't want to "upgrade" anyway. I will simply build another new system. The tech changes too fast and the way I see it, upgrading constantly isn't very beneficial from a financial standpoint. But then I am not, and don't care to be, out on the bleeding edge of the tech.

.

Athlon 64 X2 3800+/4000+ or Intel E6300

Athlon 64 X2 3800+/4000+ or Intel E6300

Re: Athlon 64 X2 3800+/4000+ or Intel E6300

Re: Athlon 64 X2 3800+/4000+ or Intel E6300

Re: Athlon 64 X2 3800+/4000+ or Intel E6300