Time to quiet my Sonata

[Dane]

Hey guys,

I apologise in advance for a very long post - but I think it's best to present all the info at the start so it's easier for you guys to advise me.

I've been addicted to this place for a few months now, and I think I've learnt about as much as I can from reading reviews, articles and posts. Now I need help finalising what components to buy to achieve what I want with this system.

I'll start with the current situation. My first build a year ago and I wanted components that gave me a good price/performance ratio which I think I achieved as I've been delighted with it - however, it's bloody loud. I was in need of a case and my friend has a second hand Sonata lying around which I liberated for £30 (Not bad), but it didn't include the PSU so I got the cheapest big one I could find, and well - it's pure crap.

Q-Tec rate it at 33dBA (There's no variation with load) and without the fan-only connectors the stock sonata fan is running at full pelt (2000rpm, 79cfm at 29.8dBA according to Antec). These two are by far the loudest components in the case. The two hard drives are mounted in the usual sonata method and I haven't enabled AAM yet cause I can't here them at all. Nor can I accurately judge how loud the stock HS&F is - but I'm gonna change it anyway. Ditto for the 9800PRO - I'll wait and see if the noise bothers me (I Don't trust the AC silencers btw).

With no bezel mods (Yet) my cpu (Stock speeds and voltage, AS5 used) idles about 43-49 depending on the weather and hits 52/53 playing games. System temps have never crossed 35 (28 as I write this) and DTemp shows the drives have never got over 35. (All temps read using ASUS PC Probe).

I'd like to keep these temps as a minimum, and preferably knock a few degrees off of them - but I know they're safe and the system is stable so it's not essential.

Now what I want to achieve: currently I emit a huge sigh of relief whenever I turn my PC off, and I'm constantly aware of it. (A loud whirring hum is how I’d describe it). I want to get it to the point where I can walk into my room and not instantly be aware it’s on, and be able to work with it on without playing music to cover the noise. I could probably tolerate a slight smooth-fan noise if needed. Ideally though I want have to turn off my TV and listen carefully to know it's on.

Proposed upgrades:

1) PSU has to go, its voltage stability is poor and makes all sorts of weird noises.
2) Two new 120mm fans (Front inlet, rear exhaust) and will control with a simple 3-ch fan controller.
3) New quality HS & F that gives superior cooling performance to the stock one (To compensate for the reduced exhaust fan speeds)
4) Soft mount HD's using m0002a's foam method.

Now the big sticking point is do I go with a bottom 120mm fanned PSU (I can get an S12-430) or an inline fan PSU (New Smartpower 2.0's)? The reason I can’t decide is that if you look at pics on the following link: https://www.bath.ac.uk/~en3dep/PC%20Pics.htm you can see how close the socket and thus heatsink are to the bottom of the psu.

I plan on getting an SI-97 and already have a 92mm nexus (Amazingly quiet – I can barely hear it even at 12V). If this fan isn’t enough then I’d go for this Panaflo 92F-L1A at http://www.dorothybradbury.co.uk/ (Huge thanks to Aleksi for the link and advice) and control it with a fan controller.

So is having a heatsink that close to the PSU fan going to cause lots of turbulence and decrease the efficiency of the heatsink, and would the hot air being sucked straight into it be enough to cause the fan to ramp up? The review didn’t specify how much additional heat the S12’s can take before they start getting loud.

Now I could solve this by getting a smartpower 2.0 but then I miss out on the cooling effect of a bottom-fanned PSU and my 333FSB Barton seems a hot chip. Currently the exhaust from both the case fan and PSU are warm – with the PSU flow being noticeably warmer (But not really hot at all). I don’t really no how the airflow from a slow spinning 120mm PSU will compare to 2*80mm’s in the Q-Tec. This potential cooling loss and that to reduce noise I’ll need to slow down the rear fan makes me nervous about temps. But on the other hand this is likely a very inefficient PSU so that could be a reason for warm exhaust temps. Plus getting more fresh air in from the front will help.

As you can see I’m quite unsure about which way to go. I think the SI-97 is a definite – unless someone knows a better HS&F for this system. (What happened to Rusty’s review of it btw?)

If needed I don't mind cutting the bottom of the bezel a bit. For fans I will probably look to get hold of a medium speed yate loon for the rear (Or Papst 4412 F/2 GL), and a low speed yate loon or nexus for the front. Can you get the Yate loons with open corners so I can use the antec mounting grommets?

I'm confident that with the right combination of quality components I can quiet this down whilst maintaining current temps.

Big thanks to anyone who's bothered to read all of this and give me advice.

Dane.

[Aleksi]

Hi Dane!

first off, I personally think there's no sense even to look for alternatives for the SI-97. It's one of the best coolers for socket A and any possible (few degrees?) CPU temp drop gained by another HSF is not worthy. Better off spending the money on something else. About the 92mm Panaflo, basicly same thing. It MAY drop your temps with a 1-2 degrees when compared to the Nexus as CPU heatsink fan.

Apparently your motherboard doesn't support too much undervolting, do you know what is the VCore range you can adjust? Personally undervolting and a 300MHz underclocking made a BIG difference in my system temps and PSU temps. So if you can do that, go for it.

After experimenting with the T-Balancer, I've noticed that running the Sonata's exhaust fan makes my 120mm PSU's heatsink and exhaust air run a few degrees hotter. This maybe caused by the fact, that when the exhaust fan isn't running, it provides fresh air to the PSU. As you aren't running a terribly power hungry system, my suggestion would be:

- 120mm PSU => No exhaust fan
- 80mm PSU => use a exhaust fan

I personally would choose a Seasonic S12 over other PSU (and then do the fan swap )

None of the Yate Loons, Nexus' or Globes have open corners. So you would have to open the corners yourself, but it is actually quite easy to do. I would personally go for low speed Yate Loons instead of the Nexus fans, as you get twice the amount of fans for the same price. The Nexus however are a safe bet regarding sample consistency, even though I'm not sure how much inconsistencies there are with the Yate Loons. As you know, we should have some Yate Loons available in europe within a week or two.

Hope this helps. Any questions just ask!

-Aleksi

[Dane]

Hey Aleksi,

good to speak to you again. Thanks for your input. I've been out of the loop the last couple of weeks (Revising ) - where will we be able to get yate loons from? I know I can get a Papst 4412 F/2 GL from Silencio_777 (Same specs as Medium speed yate loon), but haven't seen any yate loons.

But anyway - yes i'm sold on the SI-97, and will try the Nexus 92mm at 12V first. I'll go for the panaflo if that's not enough.

btw - your probably the man to ask about this - but can I easily get rid of the molex connectors which are attached to the nexus's 3-pin connector?

They will really get in the way with the positioning of the fan header on my mobo. Is it safe just to cut it off or is a more delicate solution required? (Don't want to short anything, etc).

I've just whipped my mobo manual out and it claims in the bios section that I can select [1.100V] [1.125V]...[1.825V] [1.850V]! for the VCore.

I didn't even think my board would allow any! - of course I will have to check this next time I restart to see if ASUS are having me on.

If so this could be a good option. Now I've never under or over-volted/clocked anything in my life so I may need some help. If I undervolt a bit will I notice a performance drop? Cause I do game quite a bit and being an engineering student I have to be able to run CAD and some C++.

But under volting aside, I'm not comfortable with scrapping an exhaust fan. I have the current one moving (Or at least trying to) 80cfm and my temps are only OK at best. Granted an undervolt may help but I would have thought that a rear exhaust at like 1000rpm along with a S12-430 would be much better. I don't really care about the exhaust temp so long as the cpu is cool and it's all quiet. This is all with improved air intake of course from a front fan and possibly a bezel mod.

But I am leaning towards an S12. Having only recently got them in the U.k I don't know which revision they are, but both sound very good. So you don't foresee any problems with having the heatsink only a couple of mm away from the psu fan?

Thanks again,

Dane.

[Aleksi]

Hi Dane,

undervolting will not decrease your performance in anyway. Underclocking however drops performance

There should be posts about underclocking on SPCR, just use the search. If you drop the VCore too low your PC won't start, so you may have clear the CMOS a few times when experimenting. Also it's good to test your system with Prime95 or similar to check you don't get any errors (errors usually indicate too low VCore or other problems).

If you have a multiplier unlocked processor (you should see this if you change the CPU multiplier from BIOS, if it boots and the speed is different then it's unlocked) you could try dropping it with a 0,5-1X. Usually dropping the CPU speed a bit helps in getting lower Vcore. Just send me PM I'll help you in the process.

wait a sec, you have a fan pushing 80CFM Is the correct term blasphemy? Actually that kind of fan most likely interferes with the PSU intake quite a lot, which makes most likely the PSU run even hotter. Experiment with different speeds and you'll notice less is more

I really can't see any big problems even if the CPU heatsink if right under the PSU intake. It may cause some turbulance and the warm air from the CPU will enter the PSU almost instantly, but with underclocking you should get the temps low enough. Once again, experimenting is the main thing here.

Edit: about the original post, dfg wasn't supposed to imply "dog faced gremlin" Just posted a PM to this thread, had to edit it quickly.

[Aleksi]

and the Nexus wires: If the three pin connecotr has all three wires in them, then you could quite safely cut the additional wires (going to the four pin connecotr) right from the end. However if you can't cut them from the root (I have no idea what's term to use) then just use some heatshrink to cover any bare wires.

[Dane]

Thanks for the replies. I know my mobo won't even let me change the multiplier if the processor isn't unlocked, so there will be little uncertainty there.

Yeah I agree 80cfm is a bit much, but without a 4pin molex -> 3pin adapter I currently don't have a way of slowing it down (And my ears are paying the price). As you say, once I get all the bits I'll do some experimenting.

I'll think things over a bit and then I'm sure I'll have some more questions

(Everyone else feel free to keep the advice coming)

Dane.

[Dane]

OK - just reset and it's a no-go on the undervolting. ASUS in their infinite wisdom won't let me lower it at all so I'm stuck at 1.65V.

Therefore I'm gonna have to deal with stock speeds. With the fair amount of heat that it'll give off, having the psu inlet that close to the SI-97 seems a tad unwise. The Si-97 should be very efficient (Therefore get hot) and the only way to stop most of this heat going straight into the PSU would be to have the case fan running at a higher rpm than the PSU fan. But as Aleksi has pointed out this will decrease the flow of fresh air to the PSU and probably increase internal and exhaust temps (Thus speed and noise)anyway.

Hmm.....if I went with an inline option like say a Smartpower 2.0 450W (When they finally get here) then all of the cpu heat could be handled by the case fan which would provide much cleaner airflow.

The smartpower could probably get what little airflow it requires through the 'ANTEC' holes on the RHS (Looking at the front) of the case - 'bout time they did something other than let in dust. Some would come from the LHS but that side has the cables and would block most of it. (I might look to filter these holes though depending on dust build-up).

So this leads me to two questions:

1) Would a case fan (Say low/medium speed yate loon) running at approximately 1000rpm (That's a guess at the noise level which I'd find acceptable) be able to handle the heat from a stock 333FSB barton XP3000+ cooled by an SI-97 applied with AS5? (Look at pics linked in first post to gauge the relative positioning)

(Assuming I improve front intake a little)

2) How conductive (Heat-wise) is the bottom of your typical PSU? The heat from the SI-97 would instantly rise and would be a constant presence on the bottom surface of the smartpower before it is exhausted. I don't know the internal layout of the Smartpower (Might ask Frankgehry). Would some moderate heating from below transmit much heat to the key internal components which require the cooling and thus activate the rear fan?

This airflow configuration between the HS, PSU and case fan is the key to getting this thing cool and quiet. (I'd be prepared to sacrifice some noise to ensure temps don't exceed their current values)

All thoughts welcome,

Dane.

[Dane]

Ok guys - quick update.

After some very useful advice from Fankgehry and some input from Bluefront (Big thanks to both, along with Aleksi for his contributions so far) I have to say that I'm more confused than ever

This is probably because both proposed methods of handling the airflow are valid, and with enough work could be very successful. So let me try and break down the two avenues in more detail - and hopefully some other users can add their input.

1) Go with a smartpower 2.0 or similar single/in-line fanned PSU and simply eliminate it from the cooling system. It could get what little fresh air it needs through the 'ANTEC' holes, with the potential to use some stiff card, etc to partition it off from the rest of the case to ensure that as little hot air as possible enters the fan intake. According to Frank a little heat on the underside of the PSU wont be a problem, it's the air entering the intake that dictates the fan speed.

A 1000rpm-ish fan would then handle the heat from the CPU, with a front fan supplying fresh air through a modded bezel.

2) Go with a S12-430 and use it in conjunction with a moderate speed rear exhaust fan. Sadly the fin's on the SI-97 wont line up parallel to the case fan, rather the solid ends will, but due to it's height the case fan should be able to exhaust most of the heat blown below onto the motherboard by the 92mm fan. The seasonic would help out and everything would be hunky dory.

Now yesterday I was leaning towards the first option due to the ludicrously close proximity of the HS to the PSU, and that the alignment of the SI-97 fins meaning that most heat will go straight into the PSU before the case fan can evacuate it. Sadly this can't be corrected with undervolting .

However I'm now reading very mixed reviews on the noise of the smartpower 2.0, with those having received one in their Sonata II's not be overly impressed.

Personally I think I'm worrying too much (must be exam stress) and that both options would work well. But I want this system to last me for another 2 to 3 years so really want to get this right. And I don't have the money to make a mistake.

What I'll probably do is get the SI-97 and two new case fans along with a fan controller and then see what the heat is like around the CPU area (By sticking my hand in their of course). Then I can gauge whether it would have a negative effect on an S12 or not.

Right - I'm gonna shut-up now and let you guys put me straight.

Dane.

[scruzbeachbum]

Rather than spend $'s (or pounds) on all of these changes, I'd lean toward just getting the Seasonic and see what happens to system temps. You're existing temps are reasonable, and while getting them lower would be a fun hobby to pursue, it just doesn't matter much. I'd hope the high efficiency rating of the PSU plus the 120mm fan would be good for something.

This will take care of the PSU noise, which I thought was the biggest issue. Then, after reviewing the system temps you can then decide if any other changes might help out.

[Dane]

Thanks man - you speak a lot of sense.

If I eventually want a really quiet system then getting what's known to be the quietest PSU seems logical.

I will need to get the new fans and controller so I don't have the stock Antec fan screaming away at 2000rpm.

I'll probably still go for the SI-97 anyway as it's simply going to be much better than the stock HS, and should help to compensate for the loss of cooling that comes from a quieter PSU. I don't mind spending the pounds on quality components that'll do the job well - and already having a nexus 92mm lying around, it seems silly not to go the whole hog for the sake of an extra £20.

Cheers - Dane.

[Kaizer]

OK - just reset and it's a no-go on the undervolting. ASUS in their infinite wisdom won't let me lower it at all so I'm stuck at 1.65V.

Have no fear , you CAN undervolt the A7N8X-E DLX by using either the nVidia System Utility or 8rdavcore (http://www.hasw.net/8rdavcore/).

Here's a post with details on how to use these programs for the A7N8X-E DLX.

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... highlight=

I'd prefer 8rdavcore as its autoFSB feature can automatically undervolt your CPU when you load up Windows (provided that you set the necessary condition and that you have added 8rdavcore to your "start up" folder).

[Aleksi]

Kaizer, good notice!

Dane, your previous post wasn't quite clear, did you try to change multipliers? Is your processor unlocked?

[Dane]

Hey all - sorry it's taken me a while to respond, been up to my arse in Thermofluids revision

Kaizer: Thanks for that, I never thought to look for a way around the problem.

Aleksi: The option is there in the BIOS to change the multiplier (i.e. I could select it and got presented with various values, unlike the VCORE option which is greyed-out), however since I couldn't change the VCore I didn't actually select an alternate value as there seemed little point.

Now quoting from my mobo manual:

"CPU Frequency Multiple: This field is available to unlocked processors only."

Now whether the fact that the option to change the multiplier was available confirms that it is unlocked I don't know, I would obviously have to try it for real.

Hope that clears things up.

However, I think I'd get very annoyed having to constantly change the VCORE settings & therefore I don't think I'll bother as really I'm looking for a permanent solution. Plus I do like my games as fast as possible. However it is something I'll keep in reserve. So really I wanna get this thing cool 'n quiet at stock values.

I'm still undecided at the mo (Getting favourable advice for all the options discussed ) - all opinions welcome.

[Aleksi]

Hi Dane,

if you use 8rdavcore you don't have to change them manually. You can define a set of parameters and according to these the program shifts the vcore and bus speed automatically. You can also control fans and monitor temperatures and define a relationship between these two.

You just have to configure it once and then just put it in the Windows startup directory.

[Dane]

Cheers - I'll go that way then if i decide to undervolt.