Advice for a number cruncher?

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aqm consultant
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Advice for a number cruncher?

Post by aqm consultant » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:49 pm

This is a GREAT site. Thanks to all for your focus, thoughtfulness, and willingness to share experience.

I’m about to have to start some serious number crunching, with multiple instances of floating-point-intensive apps. This is old code not optimized for multiple processors, with modest I/O demands but long run times (currently 16+hrs at 100% CPU on an Athlon 1.4GHz T’bird). Since I’ll be running multiple instances simultaneously, I’m headed for a dual core Athlon 64. I’m hoping to keep it reasonably quiet, and am leaning toward:

>Athlon 64 x2 4800+ (yeah, $$$, I know, but the speed will be worth it)
>Asus A8N-SLI Premium (don’t need the SLI, but 3Gb SATA RAID 1 and CoolnQuiet look good)
>2 Samsung SP2004C 200Gb HDs for SATA RAID 1
>Antec P150 with stock PSU -- I don’t think I’ll wait for the black vcrsion, even if it would make the system faster ;-)

I’ll be on this system 8+ hours/day, and I’m trying to get speed while balancing noise and reliability (RAID 1 is necessary – can’t afford a crash)

Open questions for which I’d greatly appreciate recommendations:
>Is there a better drive config? I want at least 150 Gb of RAID 1, but would like 300+ Gb total. Should I consider two larger (but noisier) drives on RAID, or two smaller, quieter RAID drives and a single non-RAID (with associated noise, air flow and heat issues)?
>HS/fan recommendations for the CPU?
>Case fans (esp with the Asus heat pipe on the NB and the single fan config on the Antec PSU)?
>MB alternatives? I’ve built a number of Asus boxes, with no dogs, and I like their documentation, but have only limited experience with other MB mfrs.
>For DDR, am I better off with 4x 512Mb or 2x 1Gb (never did fully understand bus speeds)

TIA for any suggestions.

~El~Jefe~
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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:14 pm

well. here you go. If you are using an athlon 1...... shooting for a 4800 is rather rediculous.

i would go, at max, 4400. you get 2.2ghz and you get 1 meg cache. im not sure your programs will like the cache, im guessing they will and, it uses a bit less heat compared to a 4600 with half the cache.

really, a 3800 would be fine and dandy. I would suggest that above all choices. 2.0 with 512KB cache. massive jump from what you have.

If you really want to go crazy for serving and number crunching, I suggest dual core opteron and ecc memory. shrug.

For a board, for you, I would go Tyan. best built board out there. for the cheap, I would go Asrock's dual sataII 939 board. it is passive and ACTUALLY is passive. the north and south bridge split the load vs nforce4 slamming all the stuff onto one chip. the asus and abit boards might be passive, but that chip gets very hot. To me, that means instability one day.

uli1695 chipset on the Asrock and it has sata II (what you requested) it also is 75 dollars shipped. Cant beat that. I would get 2 gigs of memory as well. that new OCZ fast 1 gig dimm is probably the coolest option out. costs a bit though. (anandtech just did a review of it, looks great). 2x1 gig chips are better than 4x512's. just a thought. oh, ram at 4x512 doesnt like to go 1T command rate. 2x1024 can do it though, and now the OCZ stuff can do it with cas 2 timings. It is the more mature option.

939 chips like 2 sticks better than four even venice e6 chips.

if you get the Asrock board you wont have to worry as much about silencing.

If i were you I would take the 3800, that ocz ram, the asrock board, and use a Zalman Reserator 1 Plus cooling tower. it might be expensive, but I assure you that it will allow 24/7/365 days of running in silence.

stromgald
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Post by stromgald » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:57 pm

The ASUS A8N-E has 4x SATA 2 connectors and is cheaper than the A8N SLI Premium. But, it does have active cooling on the chipset, but you can just spend $5 dollars or so for a Zalman chipset cooler for it. For the CPU, I agree with El Jefe that a 3800+ dual core Athlon should be enough. If you want more, its not hard to overclock slightly. Getting the fastest CPU out there is not cost effective and is generally a waste of money.

For the CPU cooler, an XP-120 with a Papst/Panaflo/Yate Loon fan at 5-7V would be fine. I think the Antec P150 comes with only an Antec TriCool 120mm as the rear fan. I would set that on low, and get an intake fan (Nexus 92mm maybe?) and that should be enough.

I wouldn't worry too much about the chipset cooling and instability. I have my main computer on 24/7 and it has a VIA chipset that gets quite hot to the touch. But, no instability or lag yet. I really should get a Zalman heatsink for it, but its been fine for almost a year now.

quikkie
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Post by quikkie » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:54 am

current hard drives can't max ata-133 never mind sata or sata2. pretty much all boards come with some form of raid* support now so let your wallet be your guide ;) not too sure about CnQ but it seems there's plenty of choice out there.
when it comes to memory it doesn't really matter if you go with 4 sticks or 2 although with 4 sticks you have a problem when you want to upgrade :) but as eljefe said - a bios tweak is necessary if running 4 sticks.

The X2-3800 is cool running, with my asetek vapochill micro (and 92mm panaflo M1A) I've not managed more than 25C over room temp when running two instance of cpuburn (max indicated temp of 44C)

*technically it's software raid as the CPU is doing most of the work of running the array - similar to a lot of internal modems and onboard sound cards.

-Quikkie

aqm consultant
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Post by aqm consultant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:44 am

Thanks El Jefe, stromgald, and quikkie. I'd initially rejected the A8N-E because of the active cooling on the NB. Reviews on the Zalman passive cooler look good, but I haven't found whether it is adequate for the NVidia NForce4. Any idea? Would obviously want a front fan blowing over the HDs and the NB with that approach.

I really like the idea of the Reserator, but there seems to be a chronic problem with pumps. (Loooong thread at Zalman forum)
http://zalmanforums.com/showthread.php? ... ge=1&pp=10.
XP-120 looks good (will it fit on an A8N-E?) as does the Asetek VapoChill Micro (although in a P150 with no bottom fan on the PSU, seems like the air flow could be pretty strange. quikkie -- did you encounter any space or air flow issues with yours?

Still looking for advice on HDD config -- (2 smaller, quieter RAID 1 + another vs. 2 larger RAID 1 drives alone).

vertigo
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Post by vertigo » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:41 am

Reviews on the Zalman passive cooler look good, but I haven't found whether it is adequate for the NVidia NForce4.
I don't have an NF4 board, but the problem seems to be getting enough airflow over that heatsink. A VF700 certainly doesn't give enough. Located where it is, there are no fans near it. I think to use the Zalman you would need to pay special attention to directing air there.

aqm consultant
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Post by aqm consultant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:10 am

Rats. And it seemed like such a good idea. Hopefully, the Asus chipset fan isn't too noisy.

nici
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Post by nici » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:22 am

A very slow 40 or 50mm fan secured to the zalman NB47J makes wonders and is inauddible, just a few CFM is enough to make a large difference in temps. good luck with the system :)

quikkie
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Post by quikkie » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:49 pm

the nb32j (yes the smaller one) is currently sitting on my nf4 chip. two things immediately spring to mind
1- it's a complete pain in the ass to fit the arms to the the heatsink
2- temps are fine - the app I have for reading temps (it came on the mainboard CD) say that the temp of the nf4 chip is less with the nb32j than with the original cooler. Having looked at the cooler I now know why, it's small, aluminum and has very little surface area for cooling, coupled with the smallest, noisiest fan from hell.

My mainboard is a winfast/foxconn nf4uk8aa-8ekrs (what a mouthful) so you know what to stay away from. The PCI-E slot is directly over the NF4 chip so I had to get creative with pliers to get the nb32j to fit around the gfx card. I think my x800 might push some air over the nb32j but I can't be sure.

In my stock antec slk3800 (same as the 3000B but with a PSU as standard) I have no air flow worries, my NF4 chip claims that the temp is about 33C, CPU idles at ~30C and (2) cpuburns at ~44C. Room temp is around 17-21C (no thermometer to check that though). I have the rear tri-cool fan on low and can just barely feel a temperature difference between room temp and the fan output. I had to remove the plastic tunnel above the CPU heatsink, but otherwise I haven't made any other mods to the case to get stuff to fit.

I should really tape up the vents on the side but I haven't got round to it yet. Ditto drive suspension. Ditto figuring out which fan is currently loudest...

-Quikkie

~El~Jefe~
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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:14 pm

well ok, i sell appliances. now Consumers reports which is a real lame organization says that a Sub-zero refrigerator is not as good as a 350 frigidair apartment refrigerator. if you dont knwo what a sub is, really hard to make the comparison (hand made 7000 dollar refrigerator).

now, people only complain about what they want fixed because it cost a lot of money. no one whines about a 120mm fan and 35 dollar heatsink busting on them or being louder than expected. The phantom 350. i own it. the reserator 1 original. i own that too. both are silent, efficient and perfect on a clawhammer gaming system that is never turned off.

The pumps are made from the company that is like sub-zero of fish hobby world. Eheim. they make the best and quietest pumps for hobbiests that have aquarium setups. Everyone gives a nod of respect when you look at somone's rig and it shows an Eheim setup.

So, that's what's in the reserator. they replace it free if it busts and give many apologies. try getting an apology or a free fan from Scythe or whatever company. Zalman's tech line is really helpful and very nice. they are actually concerned when one of their products fails. they never ask me to go back to the store, even if it is only a month old (300w psu from them). They sent me a new one once i sent the old one in, and even upgraded it for me. they are sending me some parts to convert my old zalman into the new res. plus. not all of them, but just a few as a thank you.

SPCR people tend to write only when they have a problem.

if you can afford the reserator 1 plus, get the northbridge option, and bam, you have a very nice cooling setup. (mine doesnt make any noise unless nothign is turned on, its late at night, and i put my ear 6 inches from the base of it. i here a little hum then faintly.)

silence
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Post by silence » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:59 pm

Considering this is going to be a business machine, I think we need to look at the priorities of this build before recommending hardware.

1) Reliability
2) Reliability
3) Fault Tolerance
4) Performance
5) Noise level

I understand that this poster is asking for quiet recommendations, but it is of the utmost importance that he or she uses the most rock-solid dependable hardware available to purchase. This machine will be helping a business run and putting food on someone's table.

I have a few suggestions that I would like to make based on my actual experiences with products.

1.) Like El Jefe said, a dual-core Opteron might be a good option if you're looking for the absolute best performance in the situations you describe. Considering you were planning on using a 4800+, take that money and spend it on an Opteron 265, 270, or 275. These run at 1.8, 2.0, and 2.2 GHz respectively and are based on the 90nm core technology for cool and efficient operation. Two of these would be nice, but this introduces the cost of yet another processor and server-grade peripherals. Please note that 2xx series Opterons can be used in a dual-CPU setup, so a future motherboard upgrade and additional CPU purchase can net you siginificant performance gains in the future when the price of the hardware comes down. The 1xx series dual core Opterons would be cheaper if they existed, but there are no plans to release them (soon), at least not as 940 parts.

2.) I recently put together a photo- and video-editing system using an Opteron 270 and this motherboard. It is an extremely well-designed and well-built motherboard and is within the same price range of the A8N-SLI Premium. It uses the nVidia Pro 2200/2050 Chipset(s) with 8 SATA 3.0Gb ports, dual 16x PCIe graphics slots, and has been tested with the newest dual-core Opterons for stability and compatibility. The included chipset coolers are a touch loud but can be easily replaced with your choice of Zalman solutions. I would recommend the NB-47J with a quiet 40mm fan attached for maximum dependability.

3.) With an Opteron comes the requirement for registered RAM, which will be a little more expensive than standard DDR. I recommend ECC as well just to be sure that errors in your program output are kept to an absolute maximum of zero. Check these out. They are not the fastest sticks of RAM on the market but they will be dependable in your intended system.

4.) The Samsung hard drives you picked out are fine. I have two of them in RAID 0 running in the computer I am typing to you on - no problems since day one, and they've been on almost constantly for the past 3 months. They're very quiet and for your purposes quite fast.

5.) If you do go with the Opteron, I suggest using the stock heatsink/fan until the warranty period is up for obvious reasons. I personally would not risk voiding the warranty on a $800+ CPU by using a non-certified heatsink. If the noise of that bothers you, replace the fan with something quieter. Believe it or not, the stock coolers for Opterons are very well-built. If you are intent on using a very quiet solution, go with something like the XP-90 w/Nexus 92mm fan, but PLEASE use something with a reasonable weight.

6.) The P150 will likely serve you well, but it is the only hardware I have mentioned that I have not as of yet used. I do, however, own a NeoHE 430 which is currently powering these very keystrokes. It is exceptionally quiet and has all the necessary connectors for your application.

7.) As for case fans, I would recommend the Yate Loon D12SL-12 orange fans run on a Sunbeam Rheobus controller. Nexus fans are too slow to provide significant air flow even at 12v; the D12s move 10cfm more at 12v and are still dead quiet at minimum input voltage. As an added plus, they are also cheaper. You can run them at 12v all the time through the power supply if you want to take the fan controller out of the equation to avoid possible fan/hardware malfunction due to improper controller settings or controller failure.

As for the suggestions made by others...

The ASRock Dual SATA2 mobo is nice, but has only one actual SATA2 port. That and there is no way I would ever ask someone to risk their business on a $70 motherboard.

Liquid cooling is great, but you NEED airflow through the case to cool the rest of the vital components (i.e. VRMs, nForce Pro/s, HDDs, GPU, etc). Like I said before, noise comes after reliability in a business system, so eliminating one or two near-silent fans by using liquid cooling isn't worth the hassle or extra money.

Quiet and reliable > silent and even remotely possibly unstable.

No offense to anyone intended at all, just another POV. Some very knowledgeable people here for sure...

-DG-

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Post by aqm consultant » Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:54 pm

Silence --
This is GREAT information. You are dead on regarding reliability vs. silence. I'm following your links and doing some further research on mobos and memory. Never built a "server" box before, since I'm a one man shop, and the cost differential, although not minor by the time you get through memory, CPU, etc., are manageable. Time for me to do some homework.

The thing that seems to disappear with Opterons is the Cool'n'Quiet option on AMD64x2's. Since my number crunching periods will be intense, but intermittent, this might be an issue, but if I can keep the CPU HS/fan reasonably manageable at near-idle, this may be the way to go. Your upgrade path (Opteron 275 x2 on a future mobo upgrade) is attractive. Thanks!!

Likely to be 2-3 days before I check back in, as I'm sure I'll have further questions.

As stated in my original post, this is a GREAT site and folks' experience sharing makes me feel better about the future of homo sapiens.

~El~Jefe~
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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:47 pm

i duno much about model numbers, but a Tyan board while being about 200 dollars, is normally considered the most stable board possible.

How much would you spend max on a system is the question now?

---

edit: wow. tyan boards arent cheap. :D

I just wonder... i remember some opteron boards from MSI that had the ability to use 1 or 2 of the sockets. is that the case with this one?

Thunder K8SE (S2892)

It looks like a hot board. im not knowledgeable about opteron and such but it still looks sick. has pci-e and sata II. has a pci-X as well :) thats neat.
lil pricey though.

hm.... makes one think about why anand and toms never bench the tyan boards.

hm.

aqm consultant
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Revised plan - Am I missing something?

Post by aqm consultant » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:12 pm

After soul searching and AntecRep's assurance that "I haven't heard of any consistent problem's with Abit motherboards and NeoHE's, the vast majority of the reported problems have been with Asus motherboards. You should be ok", I'm settling in on the following:

Antec P150 w/Neo HE 430
Abit AN8 Ultra
AMD Athlon 64 x2 4800+
Sunix PCI legacy parallel and serial port card, ('cause I've got a parallel laser/scanner that refuses to break :) )
Plextor dual layer DVD+/-R
Somebody's CDR-DVD combo drive (recomendations?)

Memory options:
Patriot 2x1Gb DDR400 (2-3-2-5), or
OCZ 2x1GB DDR400 Platinum (2-3-2-5)

Video card options:
XFX Geforce 6600 256 Mb, or
MSI 6600LE 256 Mb

Hard drive options (2 in RAID 1 config):
Samsung SpinPoint P SP2504C 250GB SATA II, or
Hitachi Deskstar T7K250 250GB SATA-II

Unless there are issues I'm unaware of, all of these seem to get decent feedback here. Things I'm not sure of tho:

1. I've been unable to verify compatibility of Patriot or OCZ DDR with the AN8Ultra. The slots are pretty close together on this MB, so I'll likely need to make sure there's airflow there. Will the stock HSF on the x2 provide this?

2. The NB heatpipe radiator looks like it could interfere with the 120 mm rear case fan. Anybody done this combination or similar?

3. Passive video cards apparently run pretty hot. Will the 120 mm exhaust and a single 92mm fan over the HDs provide enough airflow?

4. Did I screw anything else up? If I add a 3rd HD later, will the HE430 still provide enough power?

TIA, and thanks to those who've helped me get here.

Shadowknight
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Post by Shadowknight » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:39 pm

You forgot to list an aftermarket heatsink... Scythe Ninja is a great choice, as you can run it passively or with a slow fan, should you wish active cooling.

aqm consultant
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Post by aqm consultant » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:51 pm

I'm planning to defer on an aftermarket HSF until (a) I find out how loud the stock one is, and/or (b) the warranty runs out. I've done a fair amount of looking and haven't been able to find any details on what the stock unit even looks like. :( The Ninja is definitely high on the list though. Might try moving the 120mm exhaust fan to the side of a Ninja to get both the CPU and the NB radiator.

Schlotkins
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Post by Schlotkins » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:34 pm

I have a quick question. Where is the realiability information for Tyan boards. I've been looking to upgrade my system and it's basically how I'm going to earn my living as well (Ph.D. in finance). I was thinking about going with enterprise HDDs (SCSI), but I was planning on going with a "$70" motherboard.

Chris

scaryduck
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Post by scaryduck » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:35 pm

Nothing to add on the silent front, but it might be an idea to buy your drives from two different etailers. After all, it's not unheard of for three - identical - drives to fail at the same time.

aqm consultant
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Post by aqm consultant » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:49 pm

WOW. That link is scary, scaryduck! I've only had one outright HD failure in maybe 20 drives, each of which was run pretty regularly for 5+ years. Anyone else seen this happen?

stromgald
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Re: Revised plan - Am I missing something?

Post by stromgald » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:55 pm

aqm consultant wrote:Unless there are issues I'm unaware of, all of these seem to get decent feedback here. Things I'm not sure of tho:

1. I've been unable to verify compatibility of Patriot or OCZ DDR with the AN8Ultra. The slots are pretty close together on this MB, so I'll likely need to make sure there's airflow there. Will the stock HSF on the x2 provide this?
I doubt it will cool between the memory slots, not much can, but you shouldn't worry. The RAM should be able to handle the temparatures. Especially since you're only putting in two sticks with heatspreaders. The RAM will have one side open to the ambient, and the heatspreader could transfer heat from the inner sides where it'll be hot.
aqm consultant wrote: 2. The NB heatpipe radiator looks like it could interfere with the 120 mm rear case fan. Anybody done this combination or similar?
I don't think it'll physically interfere with the rear case fan unless you're talking about airflow. Its not much higher than the USB and PS/2 connectors. The only problem would be airflow. Hot air from the exhaust could go back in the opening and reenter the case. A blow-down CPU fan would most likely prevent this from happening.
aqm consultant wrote: 3. Passive video cards apparently run pretty hot. Will the 120 mm exhaust and a single 92mm fan over the HDs provide enough airflow?
It should be enough for a passive 6600 or 6600LE. I would personally go with the 6600.
aqm consultant wrote: 4. Did I screw anything else up? If I add a 3rd HD later, will the HE430 still provide enough power?
The NeoHE has 430W. Your system could easily run on 300W.

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