Silent System for AutoCAD/Photoshop/Gaming

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:59 pm

Hey everyone, what's up?

Here is what I am running now, it is not really cutting it:

CPU - Intel P4 2.8 GHz
Video - ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB AGP
HDD - Maxtor 38GB IDE
RAM - 512MB PC-133 SDRAM

It is an old Dell so it seems as loud as my home's air conditioner.

It is not really cutting it. Simple games (Crimsonland) sometimes barely run full screen at 1024x768. Trying something like Counter Strike would be out of the question on this thing. AutoCAD moves slowly sometimes and rendering anything means my PC is out of commission for a while. Photoshop also can't keep up with me, especially when I work with high resolution images.

I want my replacement to be more powerful and much quieter. I want to move the PC into my bedroom but I still want to sleep there.

Anyway, this is what I'm looking at:

6/18/07 - Edit: Long story short, my budget is smaller than I thought. I've downgraded some parts (Case, Mobo, CPU, GPU, RAM, HDD) and I switched to a fanless PSU (although NOT modular) since I'll be needing less power

Case - Antec P180
Mobo - EVGA 122-CK-NF66-T1 (650i)
CPU - Intel C2D E6420 Conroe 2.13GHz
CPU Cooler - Thermalright HR-01 Passive Heatsink
Video - Fanless Gigabyte 8600GTS 256MB
RAM - Two 1GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2 675MHz
Storage
--- HDD - Western Digital Caviar SE 160GB
--- Enclosure - Smart Drive 2002 Copper, hopefully suspended in the bottom compartment depending on temperatures & if I can successfully set up a suspension system
PSU - Fortron Source Zen 400W Fanless PSU
Optical Drive - Asus DRW-1814BLT - DVDÂ±RW/+R DL/-RAM
Fans - Three Noctua NF-S12-800's running at 500 RPM (~20CFM) w/rubber mounting screws. Two fans will be in the top & rear fan mounts (replacing the Antec Tri-Cool fans), and the third fan will be in the optional middle fan mount to cool the passive GPU & CPU. I'm told that soft-mounting will require case modifications, so I will see how tough it looks when I get it in front of me.
Sound Insulation- AcoustiProducts' AcoustiPack Delux sound insulation. I'll cover the holes surrounding the PSU on the P180 to ensure that all airflow is directed upwards across the mobo.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Anywhere I should cut back a bit or upgrade a little? Did I pick a part that you know is a worthless POS?

I do not plan on overclocking anything.

Redzo · Post by **Redzo** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:14 pm

Since you wont be overclocking i really dont see need for overclocking memory. Any PC6400 (even 5400) will be more than enough. Same goes for northbridge fan, you will do just fine without one.
Nvidia chipsets run hot but they are able to cope with heat just fine.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:59 pm

As owner of P-182B case, the top exhaust fan cannot be soft mounted. Especially not with Noctua's rubber things. As top fan is attached with 2 hooks and two screws.

Other than that I see no problem with that configutation. Remember to use HR-01 fanduct, it gives significant boost to cooler. And make sure you Get HR-01 LGA775 version.

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:52 pm

Redzo wrote:Since you wont be overclocking i really dont see need for overclocking memory. Any PC6400 (even 5400) will be more than enough.

I have no knowledge of overclocking so you'll have to cut me some slack, maybe I misunderstand. The stock speed of the memory is faster (and is supported by the motherboard). So, shouldn't I have a performance increase without overclocking anything? Or are you just saying the difference is so negligible it is not worth the extra $$$ for the fast memory?

thejamppa wrote:As owner of P-182B case, the top exhaust fan cannot be soft mounted. Especially not with Noctua's rubber things. As top fan is attached with 2 hooks and two screws.

That's a shame, I had realized also that the middle fan is attached with a couple of little clips, I don't think I'll be able to soft mount that one either.

I will see how noise is, I am going to be pretty picky. If it is acceptable I will leave everything, if not I will "get creative." Hopefully when I get creative I won't ruin anything =D

Do you guys think I have enough air moving through the case for the passive cooling of everything? The TriCool fans that come with the case run at 39CFM on low, and I hope to use the Noctua fans with their little resistor doodad, which puts them at around only 20CFM.

Also, out of curiosity, I know the Raptors are loud drives, has anyone had any luck quieting them down by putting them in an enclosure?

Post by **Rusty075** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:26 pm

FÃ«anor wrote:
Redzo wrote:Since you wont be overclocking i really dont see need for overclocking memory. Any PC6400 (even 5400) will be more than enough.
I have no knowledge of overclocking so you'll have to cut me some slack, maybe I misunderstand. The stock speed of the memory is faster (and is supported by the motherboard). So, shouldn't I have a performance increase without overclocking anything? Or are you just saying the difference is so negligible it is not worth the extra $$$ for the fast memory?

The advertized/rated speed of the RAM is a measure of how fast it is capable of running, but if you just pop it in the motherboard it will run at the stock speed of the CPU/motherboard. That's what Redzo was getting at. If you don't run the RAM at a faster speed (overclock) it, you will see zero performance gain. Think about it as a car analogy: if you put a bigger engine in your car, but still set the cruise control at the same speed you always have, the extra horsepower you paid all that money for isn't going to get you anywhere faster. I agree with Redzo...go with "regular" RAM, and save the money for something else.

With your current system the real bottleneck is the amount of RAM you have. 512 is really bottom-end for doing AutoCAD or PS. That's what's holding you back. If you put the 2gigs of RAM you are spec'ing for your new machine into your current machine it will be basically as fast at AutoCAD and Photoshop as the new one will be. (I spend 9-5 everyday working in AutoCAD and Photoshop, so I feel your pain) The new video card will help with game performance, but really won't do much of anything for the CAD/PS work. The new hard drive will marginally speed up document opening and saving, but not enough to make a big change in your day. Instead of taking 10 seconds to open a file it might take 9.

Traciatim · Post by **Traciatim** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:43 pm

How high resolution images are you talking? You shouldn't be seeing a performance problem in Photoshop unless it's running out of memory or something.

Throw windows taking about 180MB, Photoshop takes 70, a few apps running like messenger and junk you get another 50. So you've taken up 300 MB of RAM already. That's leaving 212 for your images. Even a 10MP 8bit per channel CMYK image is only 40MB, that should leave you with 4 of them open with a little room to spare.

I would think it's just time to unload some of your extra junk, possibly upgrade your RAM a bit, and quiet down your system with a few modifications.

Perhaps you should look at performance monitor and see where your troubles are coming from. I have a far less powerful system and though I don't use Autocad, my system doesn't seem to exhibit any of the problems you describe, albeit noisy. If I just replace my PS fan, CPU/GPU Fan and spin down my drives I would have a near silent machine for sleeping. Plus I would have the extra $1200 for doing something important with.

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:11 pm

Rusty075 wrote:
FÃ«anor wrote:
Redzo wrote:Since you wont be overclocking i really dont see need for overclocking memory. Any PC6400 (even 5400) will be more than enough.
I have no knowledge of overclocking so you'll have to cut me some slack, maybe I misunderstand. The stock speed of the memory is faster (and is supported by the motherboard). So, shouldn't I have a performance increase without overclocking anything? Or are you just saying the difference is so negligible it is not worth the extra $$$ for the fast memory?
The advertized/rated speed of the RAM is a measure of how fast it is capable of running, but if you just pop it in the motherboard it will run at the stock speed of the CPU/motherboard. That's what Redzo was getting at. If you don't run the RAM at a faster speed (overclock) it, you will see zero performance gain. Think about it as a car analogy: if you put a bigger engine in your car, but still set the cruise control at the same speed you always have, the extra horsepower you paid all that money for isn't going to get you anywhere faster. I agree with Redzo...go with "regular" RAM, and save the money for something else.

The default memory speed of the motherboard is DDR2 1200, that was a factor in motherboard selection. The CPU's FSB is 1066 MHz. I thought that 800 MHz memory would create a bottleneck. Am I mistaken?

Either way, the memory does happen to be one of the pricier components in the system right now so I will take your advice and downgrade it.

Rusty075 wrote:With your current system the real bottleneck is the amount of RAM you have. 512 is really bottom-end for doing AutoCAD or PS.

According to the Task Manager I usually still have some memory available. Rather the processor usually seems to be the limit. As soon as I try something complicated the CPU gets hogged (such as rendering in AutoCAD or smudging a large # of pixels in Photoshop).

Rusty075 wrote:The new hard drive will marginally speed up document opening and saving, but not enough to make a big change in your day. Instead of taking 10 seconds to open a file it might take 9.

What I have more problems with is sudden quick little reads/writes. The drive is slow to respond. Reading/writing larges files it seems to do OK. I forgot to mention it earlier, but this will be a Vista machine. If there is room in the budget I also plan on probably setting up ReadyBoost w/ a 4GB Corsair GT flash drive.

ACook · Post by **ACook** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:44 am

its not the default, it's the maximum memory speed.
the default is whatever your cpu can handle at default.
which is 1066, which means DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500), is perfectly matched.

since there are no cpu's that run faster than 1066 (I think), any ram that is rater higher is made to be run in an overclocking enviromnent, so that when the cpu is oc'd, the ram keeps up. This also means they're marketed at the insane crowd (I used to be one. want to buy some 2x1GB DDR C2 memory?), and with insane prices.

I do agree with a previous poster that your current speed will improve with an extra 1GB in your system, with added bonus when coupled with a modern HD (any size, 320 or 400G seems to be the sweet spot for $/GB), but since you want to play big games and you say your current gfx card isn't up to it, you'd also need to replace that. So a new system will be nice.

Plissken · Post by **Plissken** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:22 am

ACook wrote:its not the default, it's the maximum memory speed.
the default is whatever your cpu can handle at default.
which is 1066, which means DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500), is perfectly matched.

since there are no cpu's that run faster than 1066 (I think), any ram that is rater higher is made to be run in an overclocking enviromnent, so that when the cpu is oc'd, the ram keeps up. This also means they're marketed at the insane crowd (I used to be one. want to buy some 2x1GB DDR C2 memory?), and with insane prices.

This is incorrect.
1066 is the speed at the CPU bus. The default front side bus is 266MHz. The CPU bus is quad-pumped (4x266=1066).
RAM runs at 2X the FSB, so evenly matched RAM is DDR2-533 for this system. A common overclock is to increase FSB from 266 to 400, so people buy DDR2-800 so they can OC the CPU without OCing the RAM (until they go past 400). DDR2-1066 is overkill even for most overclocked systems. For non-OC it's a big waste of money.

ACook · Post by **ACook** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:13 am

see, I'm way behind on cpu tech. thanks.

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:59 am

Plissken wrote:This is incorrect.
1066 is the speed at the CPU bus. The default front side bus is 266MHz. The CPU bus is quad-pumped (4x266=1066).
RAM runs at 2X the FSB, so evenly matched RAM is DDR2-533 for this system. A common overclock is to increase FSB from 266 to 400, so people buy DDR2-800 so they can OC the CPU without OCing the RAM (until they go past 400). DDR2-1066 is overkill even for most overclocked systems. For non-OC it's a big waste of money.

Really? That is interesting to learn. I have always been under the impression that the FSB:RAM speed ratio should be 1:1.

Redzo · Post by **Redzo** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:10 am

FÃ«anor wrote:
Plissken wrote:This is incorrect.
1066 is the speed at the CPU bus. The default front side bus is 266MHz. The CPU bus is quad-pumped (4x266=1066).
RAM runs at 2X the FSB, so evenly matched RAM is DDR2-533 for this system. A common overclock is to increase FSB from 266 to 400, so people buy DDR2-800 so they can OC the CPU without OCing the RAM (until they go past 400). DDR2-1066 is overkill even for most overclocked systems. For non-OC it's a big waste of money.
Really? That is interesting to learn. I have always been under the impression that the FSB:RAM speed ratio should be 1:1.

And you are right, it should be 1:1 and for that you need DDR2-533 not DDR2-800 becouse FÃ«anor CPU runs at 1066Mhz FSB which is divided by 2 to get propper 1:1 ratio, in this case 533mhz for memory. 2x533=1066mhz so you see he will not need DDR2-800. To get propper 1:1 ratio with DDR2-800 memory you would need to tun CPU at 1600 FSB not 1066 or 1333 (new C2D will be using 1333 FSB).

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:51 am

Hello,

On another tact, are you going to use WinXP? AFAIK, AutoCAD cannot be run in Vista.

Post by **Rusty075** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:42 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:On another tact, are you going to use WinXP? AFAIK, AutoCAD cannot be run in Vista.

2007 runs just fine on Vista for me.

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:33 pm

Redzo wrote:2x533=1066mhz

Do you multiply the RAM speed by two because it is dual channel memory?

Rusty075 wrote:2007 runs just fine on Vista for me.

Heh, that's a relief. I had mostly not worried about Vista compatibility issues. Glad you guys are thinking ahead because it's not my specialty!

Plissken · Post by **Plissken** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:13 pm

FÃ«anor wrote:
Redzo wrote:2x533=1066mhz
Do you multiply the RAM speed by two because it is dual channel memory?

No, you divide it by two because it's dual data rate.
The FSB is at 266mhz.
533 / 2 = 266
Think of the CPU and RAM as components with pipes, being fed by the FSB. A C2D CPU has 4 pipes, so its effective speed is 4x the FSB. DDR RAM has 2 pipes, so its effective speed is 2X the FSB.
4x256 = 1066 (effective CPU bus speed)
2x256 = 533 (effective RAM bus speed)

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:44 pm

Plissken wrote:
FÃ«anor wrote:
Redzo wrote:2x533=1066mhz
Do you multiply the RAM speed by two because it is dual channel memory?
No, you divide it by two because it's dual data rate.
The FSB is at 266mhz.
533 / 2 = 266
Think of the CPU and RAM as components with pipes, being fed by the FSB. A C2D CPU has 4 pipes, so its effective speed is 4x the FSB. DDR RAM has 2 pipes, so its effective speed is 2X the FSB.
4x256 = 1066 (effective CPU bus speed)
2x256 = 533 (effective RAM bus speed)

Ok, that makes sense now. I was trying to match the effective bus frequency rather than the actual frequency.

Next question: the effective CPU bus frequency is the only bus speed listed. How would I find the actual bus speed of a processor instead of the bullshit "quad-pumped" "effective" figure? The actual bus frequency seems to be what I need to double in order to find the appropriate DDR RAM speed.

leospagnol · Post by **leospagnol** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:37 pm

Video - Two fanless Gigabyte 8600GTS 256MB in SLI

Why don't you use one 8800GTS instead? Here is a comparison between one 8800GTS and two 8600GTS SLI.

http://xtreview.com/review202.htm

8800GTS 640MB + Thermalright HR-03 Plus = $ 420.00
2x 8600GTS 256MB fanless = $ 400.00

8800GTS 640MB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130071

Thermalright HR-03 Plus
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835109136

8600GTS 256MB fanless
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814125063

miahallen · Post by **miahallen** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:12 pm

FÃ«anor wrote:Next question: the effective CPU bus frequency is the only bus speed listed. How would I find the actual bus speed of a processor instead of the bullshit "quad-pumped" "effective" figure? The actual bus frequency seems to be what I need to double in order to find the appropriate DDR RAM speed.

The answer to your question is located within it - "quad-pumped" - meaning the "FSB" they list (ie 1066) is achieved by multiplying the system clock speed by 4, so to find the system clock speed (you called it "actual bus speed"), divide the given "FSB" speed by 4 - 1066MHz/4 = 266MHz = "actual bus speed".

leospagnol wrote:Video - Two fanless Gigabyte 8600GTS 256MB in SLI

Why don't you use one 8800GTS instead?

I agree!, even with the stock fan, it is sufficently quite for all be the most picky users. I cannot here mine unless I'm gaming with my sound turned off.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:54 am

Hi Rusty,

Rusty075 wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:On another tact, are you going to use WinXP? AFAIK, AutoCAD cannot be run in Vista.
2007 runs just fine on Vista for me.

I guess my info is wrong, then. I'll have to pass this along to the person who told me. Did you have to change the User Control setting, or anything like that?

Post by **Rusty075** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:10 am

Yeah, the UAC is killed on my machine....considering that I've never run anti-virus or anti-spyware on any of my XP machines and have never gotten anything, I figure that the extra protection afforded by the UAC was lost on me anyway.

I may have also set ACAD.EXE to be running in XP compatibility mode. I'll have to check. Doing that or running them as Admin usually fixes 95% of the programs that people complain about not running on Vista.

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:43 am

miahallen wrote:The answer to your question is located within it - "quad-pumped" - meaning the "FSB" they list (ie 1066) is achieved by multiplying the system clock speed by 4, so to find the system clock speed (you called it "actual bus speed"), divide the given "FSB" speed by 4 - 1066MHz/4 = 266MHz = "actual bus speed".

Ok, so, when I am shopping for a processor, I am given the effective FSB speed only. The only way I know the system clock speed is because you guys here on the forum have provided it to me. Where would I find this information normally, without asking on a forum? I saw no mention of it on Intel's website (at a glance).

leospagnol wrote:Thermalright HR-03 Plus
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835109136

How easy is it to install? The newegg reviews make it sound like it is very difficult to install, but would be worth it if successful. I would have to do a lot of stuff I have never done before:

Remove the stock cooling from the card. Voids my warranty on the card.
Cut off a corner of the heatsink to make it fit an 8800GTS. Voids my warranty on the heatsink.
Optimally, also buy some Arctic Silver adhesive because the stuff Thermalright gives you is not the best.

That would be a great setup but I am worried about risking a ~$400 video card and a ~$50 heatsink since I have never done that sort of thing before.

Plus, even if they are inferior to a single 8800GTS, the two 8600's are going to be MUCH better than my current card.

I believe I am going to be too picky with noise for a stock 8800 fan.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:58 pm

It does not make much sense to soft-mount the lower chamber fan, since it is already attached to a plastic carrier that does a pretty good job of damping vibration. But if you really felt the need, you could do so, since the carrier has four screw holes for standard mounting.

The top case fan can be soft mounted with a minor modification. I covered this in my Superquiet Superclocked article (in SPCR DIY). To quote: "I wanted to soft-mount [the top case] fan, but the P180 case is not designed for soft-mounting [this] fan. The top fan mount has two screw holes at the back, but at the front instead of screw holes it has two bent metal tabs to hold the edge of the fan. I got around this by breaking off those tabs and drilling two new holes. This is easy, since this part of the case is plastic. Just use a fan as a drill guide. I soft-mounted the top fan with an AcoustiFan gasket. After cutting out the grill to reduce noise and mounting the fan, the P180 spoiler still fits in place, and looks like this:"

These soft mount gaskets come in black or white, and are a bit of a pain to install on 120mm fans, but work well. Here's a place that sells them: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std ... gasket_120

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:40 pm

cmthomson wrote:It does not make much sense to soft-mount the lower chamber fan, since it is already attached to a plastic carrier that does a pretty good job of damping vibration. But if you really felt the need, you could do so, since the carrier has four screw holes for standard mounting.

That is good to know. If I decide I don't need to soft-mount it then I will just have 4 extra little Noctua rubber screw thingees to keep around.

cmthomson wrote:The top case fan can be soft mounted with a minor modification...

Cool, thank you for that info! Those sound like some simple, worthwhile modifications. I can handle that.

cmthomson wrote:These soft mount gaskets come in black or white, and are a bit of a pain to install on 120mm fans, but work well. Here's a place that sells them: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std ... gasket_120

Awesome, so they do help? I was planning on ordering some anyway but I was not optimistic about how much impact they would really have.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:12 pm

FÃ«anor wrote:
cmthomson wrote:These soft mount gaskets come in black or white, and are a bit of a pain to install on 120mm fans, but work well. Here's a place that sells them: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std ... gasket_120
Awesome, so they do help? I was planning on ordering some anyway but I was not optimistic about how much impact they would really have.

Depends on the fan. With AcoustiFan DustProof fans, the soft mount actually increased the fan hub resonance. With Nexus fans, noise was slightly reduced. I've never used Noctua fans, and am one of their skeptics, since I doubt their efficacy in a real-world environment where there is some back pressure.

FÃ«anor · Post by **FÃ«anor** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:24 pm

cmthomson wrote:Depends on the fan. With AcoustiFan DustProof fans, the soft mount actually increased the fan hub resonance. With Nexus fans, noise was slightly reduced. I've never used Noctua fans, and am one of their skeptics, since I doubt their efficacy in a real-world environment where there is some back pressure.

I've never used the Noctua fans either, but everyone compares them closely to the Nexus fans. That gives me hope that the gaskets will help a tiny bit based on what you said.

Silent System for AutoCAD/Photoshop/Gaming

Silent System for AutoCAD/Photoshop/Gaming

Re: Silent System for AutoCAD/Photoshop/Gaming

Re: Silent System for AutoCAD/Photoshop/Gaming