Will I Have An Inaudible Box?

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woodsman
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Will I Have An Inaudible Box?

Post by woodsman » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:50 pm

Okay, my turn I suppose! I have been hitting the web and this site hard (possibly too hard!) assembling my list for my next box. Time to ask for the customary SPCR commentaries! :) :shock:

My selections:

1. ASUS M2NPV-VM Socket AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 6150 MicroATX
2. Athlon X2 BE-2300 1.9 GHz 45W (Brisbane)
3. Arctic Cooling Alpine 7 CPU Heat Sink/Fan
4. Kingston 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 KVR800D2N5K2/2G (PC2 6400)
5. Icy Dock MB123PK-B 5.25" Hot Swap IDE drive to SATA
6. Black Pioneer DVR-112D DVD Player/Burner
7. Black Koutech IO-FPM220 3.5" Floppy Drive & Multi Card Reader
8. Black Bytecc SNT-1122BK IDE 5.25 Mobile Rack
9. Antec Solo ATX Mid Tower
10. Arctic Cooling AF12L 120mm chassis fan
11. Fortron-Source Zen Fanless 300W ATX12V

I will be using my current "legendary" silent Seagate Barracuda IV ATA-100 IDE 40 GB hard drives. Newer SATA hard drives, if ever, will be a secondary stage of this project. Eventually I will have two drives in my new box because I want to run virtual OSs from a different drive than my host OS and I want to run my NT4 Workstation virtual OS directly from my current drive partitions.

My usage:

I'm not a gamer, and am not into overclocking or 3D, etc., etc. I will be running Slackware (GNU/Linux) as my host OS, with KDE, along with NT4 Workstation as a continuous virtual OS. Occasionally I will be running a second virtual OS such as testing the current Slackware tree. Occasionally I compile software and I always recompile the Linux kernel with each Slackware release.

However, I tend to be linear and singular in the way I work, which means although this new hardware is capable, I likely will be straining CPU multitasking abilities only seldom, if ever. I tend to work on one task at any one time, although being able to compile in the background will be a fresh change of pace for me. :). Generally I have Word 97, Firefox, and Eudora open, along with one or two additional apps or utilities, but by and large, my pace is one that keeps all of that software idling most of the time.

My criteria for my hardware selection:

I insist upon an inaudible box. "Mere" quiet is not for me. In one of the SPCR reviews the author mentioned that only somebody living in a sound-proofed home in the woods might notice certain box sounds. Heh, that person is me. :) I built my home with a lot of sound-proofing and the house is several miles from town located --- yup, in the middle of the woods. With exceptional hearing and no urban background noise, I do indeed hear such noises. My hearing is better than "20/20" (joke intended). After years of working with my current silent box, a "quiet" box will not do. :shock:

Silence is intensely more important to me than raw speed. Although faster AMD CPUs might serve my needs and wants, I am content with my choice of the newer 45W version.

Similarly, my Barracuda IV drives are ATA-100, not speed demons by today's standards but hardly snails either. Those "legendary" silent drives will satisfy me during this transition, and perhaps even longer.

Comment and criticize away!

P.S. Thanks to everybody here at SPCR who participated in helping me get this far! There is a lot of knowledge here at SPCR and I am grateful! :D

woodsman
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Post by woodsman » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:51 pm

My own reflections and concerns:

My head hurts! Researching these components was exhausting and frankly, the concept of silent PCs is not exactly yet mainstream. Thus, obtaining or designing a silent box requires a lot of up-front work and persistence. One significant reason why I never updated my old hardware is that my current primary box is silent. My definition of silent is inaudible. I have been reluctant to update hardware because I like that silence!

The AMD BE-23x0 CPUs finally are available. Possibly some SPCRers might argue that a 65W 3600+ Brisbane can be undervolted to likely achieve the same energy consumption as the new chips. Yet, I prefer to start with the 45W ceiling. If 45W is the max this CPU can generate then that is a good starting point for potential subsequent undervolting. The lower TDP rating, compared to the 3600+ at 65W, also promotes a smaller and more affordable silent heat sink solution. I doubt motherboard BIOSs are yet current for the new CPU and I likely will wait several weeks for that to happen. Regardless, this is a good time to finally be updating to newer hardware, especially with a silent box as the ultimate goal. :)

I considered some of the Antec SLK line, but those cases come packaged with PSUs --- and side vents. Incredibly, a significant number of various case models have side intake vents or ducts. With the way my office is designed with a custom-made corner desk and the room hydronic baseboard registers on the left side, the only placement for my box is to my right side --- with those case side openings facing directly at me. Any box with side openings troubles me with my goal of a silent box. I prefer front intakes.

I am hesitant about ordering any case with a PSU because PSU fan noise is subjective. What is acceptable to many people more than likely is unacceptable to me. With the Zen PSU I need not worry about fans at all.

I have mixed thoughts about the Solo. I like the inner design, but am not tickled with the glossy piano finish. I am an older fart regarding style and do not care for the modern designs of many boxes with the glossy or steel finishes, virgin whites, blue glowing LEDs, or side-windows. Nothing wrong with all that, but not my cup of tea. I want a computer case, not a piano or college dorm. A case with a basic matte finish is all I want or need. Black is nice but classic beige is just as functional. Oh, no front doors please. :)

I want a mini tower case. I prefer to have future expansion potential with the front accessories and I want three 5.25 bays and at least one 3.5 bay. I cannot find anything that comes close to promoting the inaudible design of the Solo so I suppose I will have to live with a piano.

The motherboard I selected will have more USB ports than I need in the back of the box, but I suppose having convenient access to two additional ports in the front will be nice. As will a front panel Firewire port, which currently I have no need.

I figure 2 GB probably is a safe compromise for a new box that will run virtualization software. I struggled with whether to buy DDR2-533 rather than DDR2-800, but the difference in price is nominal therefore I figured proceed with a wee bit of future-proofing and take the extra bit of speed. I am unlikely to notice any difference with most apps, but I do occasionally compile software and the extra speed might provide a cumulative difference through the years.

The Koutech Floppy Drive & Multi Card Reader seems like an inexpensive way to provide future expansion and flexibility. Part of the device actually connects to one of the motherboard back plate USB ports, but that does not bother me.

The Icy Dock MB123PK-B IDE-to-SATA mobile tray will allow me to do something I never have been able to do: hot swap my backup drives. I have long used several extra IDE drives for backups, an excellent purpose for otherwise unused drives. This tray, however, will allow me to continue using those useful drives but without the need to reboot as I always have had to do with my current hardware. The IDE interface does not support hot swapping like SATA or USB, so this tray should be a treat. Yes, I could use USB drives, but why waste money on backup disks when this inexpensive option exists?

I did a lot of reading about DVD players. Silent models do not exist per se. Additionally, no consensus opinion exists here at SPCR. However, long ago I learned with my CD burner that burning CDs at a slow rate (8x or less) significantly avoids most of the noise problems. Just never be in a hurry. :) The only thing I cannot control is a commercially pressed disk burned at high speeds. As far as watching an occasional movie DVD, that should be no problem because they run at slower (1x?) speeds. Besides, I prefer watching DVDs in my living room. :) Therefore I might as well focus on other features of a DVD device.

Originally I was concerned about my choice of CPU heat sink and chassis fan, but not now with the 45W Brisbanes available. The SPCR testing of the Alpine 7 was with a P4-520, not a 45W Brisbane, but even then the results were favorable. Everything else I have read indicates that my type of basic office usage should keep those two fans running at minimum speed and they should be inaudible to me. I might even be able to disconnect the CPU cooler fan, but that remains to be seen. Passive cooling would be great, but if the fan never speeds up then some nominal air flow is a good thing, especially to help the voltage regulators.

The Arctic 7 cooler includes a 4-pin PWM fan, which the motherboard requires. Based upon comments here at SPCR, I will be replacing the stock Antec TriCool case fan with the Arctic AF12L. The mobo supports only 3-pin chassis fans.

Using a Micro ATX board with integrated everything, this box should run "cool" for the demand I likely will create. Therefore I hope my heat sink and chassis fan choices are practical.

There might be a video capture card in the future, but only for recording some late-late night movies when I am asleep. This box will not be a HTPC in any shape or form.

For energy conservation I wanted to consider the newer 690G/V chip set. However, my primary OS will be Slackware (GNU/Linux) and ATI driver support has not always been the best for that platform. I read many positive reviews for the Nvida 6150 chip set. The 6150 chip set will consume a couple of watts more than the 690 but I am unwilling to gamble at this still relatively early stage of AMD owning ATI. The 690 chip set also is relatively new and although the Linux kernel is updated continually, I'd rather go with the already proven 6150 chip set.

The 690 chip set also only supports one IDE channel (two drives) and I want support for 4 drives.

I need a parallel port. Although there are USB-to-Centronics converters, I am unwilling to risk the Linux modules not functioning perfectly. Best to buy a motherboard with the port built in.

I never considered working with dual monitors, but with this motherboard and an additional DVI-D port, I might reconsider. Especially with running a continuous virtual OS.

klankymen
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Post by klankymen » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:21 pm

Well, I started reading, and then I browsed through some. The part list you have is pretty good for low power draw, but that alone doesn't make it silent.

IMO, to make a silent machine, you need to have only 2.5" hard drives (I don't know how cuda IVs stack up against these, I obviously picked up on the fact that they are quiet, but I've never heard one in person). I have a 40GB single platter sATA laptop drive in my system.

Besides that I have 2 Yate Loon 12cm fans undervolted to 4V using a manual fan controller. I don't know how these artic fans stack up to the Yates, people around here usually consider the Yates the best thing there is. And I have a NeoHE power supply which used to be silent, but now has started clicking. I'm planning to put a Yate Loon in there too. If I stop the PSU fan, the case is absolutely inaudible unless I put my head like 6 inches from the fans.

You could probably give the AC fans a try, but like I said I don't know if they might be worse than the YLs.
You say you need a 4 pin fan, but you don't really need one, a 3 pin fan will work too, you just need to buy a fan controller for it.

mcoleg
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Post by mcoleg » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:21 pm

pci cards for parallel port and for eide drives might be an answer. not sure how's linux compatibility with those but should be better than usb emulation.

Aris
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Post by Aris » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:31 pm

no it wont be inaudible.

you should drop the 3.5" drive for a 2.5" drive if you really want it to be inaudible. then put the drive in a scythe quietbox 2.5

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817984003

Use a single platter samsung drive for the quietest solution. They make SATA versions that work well with desktop setups.

i dont know how quiet that cpu cooler is going to be. id go with either a ninja or a tower heatsink from thermalright and put a nexus 120mm or a scythe 1200rpm sflex on it and undervolt it to 6 volts.

i dont think arctic cooling makes very quiet fans, switch out the exhaust for either a nexus or sflex, and drop it down to 6-7v.

the fanless psu will probably cause so much additional heat in the system that you'll need to increase fan speeds, it would be better to get a quiet PSU with a fan. If your going with a micro atx board, get an NSK3480 instead of the solo. It comes with an Antec 80+ 380w, with a quiet 80mm fan that will keep the psu thermal region isolated from the rest of the case similar to how the P180 does it, in a smaller form factor. It works very well and is very quiet.

http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=CA-NSK ... d8de99b4a4

i wish newegg carried it but they dont, ewiz is the only other place ive purchased from that carries it.

I have built an "Inaudible from any seated position" box using an NSK3300, Nexus 120mm fans with the included PSU with the case on a ModT pentium M processor and a passive 7600gs. I have a 40gb 2.5" SATA Samsung single platter drive that isnt even enclosed or suspended, and it is still inaudible 99% of the time. I will probably put it in a scythe enclosure when i get back to the states to make it absolutely quiet. I use it every day as my main gaming rig. So it is completely possible for you to do the same with this hardware.

colin2
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Post by colin2 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:53 pm

One question is whether the Athlon X2 BE-2300 or 2350 can be cooled more passively, with a Ninja or Thermalright HR-05 plus just the 120mm case fan. At least that's what I'm hoping to try with this chip in a couple of months. Anyway you can always build it and monitor temperatures and then swap fans and sinks in and out, so that's not a really critical decision now.

I tend to agree with others that the HDDs are probably the noise bottleneck now, especially under very low-noise conditions.

Aris' suggeston that a fanless PSU (another thing I'm hoping to use) is robbing Peter to pay Paul, heatwise, is interesting. Even with the Solo's partition, there is conduction through the case. My own hope is that if total system power requirements are low enough, and the PSU is efficient enough, there won't be that much heat from it, but it would be good to hear from folks who have tried this.

Aris
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Post by Aris » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:14 pm

theirs no point in leaving the heatsink on the CPU completely passive. i used a thermalright ultra 90 with a 92mm nexus on it, and undervolted it to the point where it reliably starts every time (around 5-6v?), barely pushes any airflow, but completely inaudible and is much better than convection or just the case exhaust fan.

same thing with the PSU. why go completely fanless when you can put a fan in there running so slow you cant hear it? it will only improve matters

Erssa
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Post by Erssa » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:39 pm

colin2 wrote:One question is whether the Athlon X2 BE-2300 or 2350 can be cooled more passively, with a Ninja
It would be so easy, my s939 x2 3800+ is of the first batch manufactured and it can be cooled with a passive Ninja.
or Thermalright HR-05 plus just the 120mm case fan.
HR-05 is a chipset heatsink
Aris' suggeston that a fanless PSU (another thing I'm hoping to use) is robbing Peter to pay Paul, heatwise, is interesting.
Nothing to worry there. One slow 600-800rpm case fan can cool a passive Ninja and the Zen. Assuming the person with the configuration is not a temperature freak.

colin2
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Post by colin2 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:00 am

Re PSUs, if you look at the review of the ST30NF

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article185-page1.html

and the thread that follows it, the data show it does not heat the rest of the case as compared to a fanned PSU, and having an insulating barrier between the PSU and rest of the case helps, which I think the Solo does.

Re other fans my experience suggests the fewer the better, and that once you put a big sink on a *low-powered* CPU it takes care of itself as long as there's some air movement. Thanks Erssa for confirming that. But as I said there's no point worrying about that here. Fans are cheap, so get 2 or 3 quiet ones, monitor temps, and add, subtract, or undervolt as needed. The Ninjas and whichever Thermalright is for CPUs have fan attachments. Depending on video demands and airflow NB heat may become an issue.

woodsman
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Post by woodsman » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:13 am

Thanks for the responses.
you should drop the 3.5" drive for a 2.5" drive if you really want it to be inaudible. then put the drive in a scythe quietbox 2.5
Regarding the hard drives, these are "legendary" Seagate Barracuda IV 7200 rpm ATA-100 drives, the drives that originally started the silent hard drive revolution with fluid dynamic bearings. These drives are silent, silent, silent. Period. They don't need quiet boxes or any dampening. 'nuff said about that! :)
You say you need a 4 pin fan, but you don't really need one, a 3 pin fan will work too, you just need to buy a fan controller for it.
Hmm. That makes little sense to me. If I buy a 4-pin fan and the motherboard already supports 4-pin fans, then why not use the built-in PWM that comes with the motherboard? Why spend money on an additional and unnecessary component? Tinkering and experimenting is a lot of fun, the geek factor is always a great conversation starter, but this project is not one of those projects. This will be my everyday box. Pragmatics prevail.
pci cards for parallel port and for eide drives might be an answer. not sure how's linux compatibility with those but should be better than usb emulation.
Yes, such solutions exist, but I'm not interested in testing such unknowns. The easier strategy is simply use a motherboard that supports 4 IDE drives and a parallel port. Often the easiest solution is the most obvious. :)
the fanless psu will probably cause so much additional heat in the system that you'll need to increase fan speeds, it would be better to get a quiet PSU with a fan.
I never have read anything that suggests what you wrote.
If your going with a micro atx board, get an NSK3480 instead of the solo. It comes with an Antec 80+ 380w . . .
Please read my system requirements. I want front-side expansion flexibility and the NSK3480 does not meet that criterion. Secondly, that case comes with a PSU and I stated that I want to avoid pre-packaged PSUs. Additionally, I never have read anything here at SPCR that indicates the Antec PSUs are top-heavy favorites for silence purists.
One question is whether the Athlon X2 BE-2300 or 2350 can be cooled more passively . . .
I'm thinking why not? The new CPU has a TDP rating of 45W, which is pretty low. Some basic undervolting or even CnQ will keep the chip running less than rated TDP. I don't mind a cooler fan spinning at an inaudible rate, which helps circulate air even a little, especially around the voltage regulators. But that TDP is a max rating, not a typical draw, which for my type of usage will be lower.

According to an SPCR review only last summer:

"The Alpine is exactly as Arctic Cooling describes it: A low-end cooler that isn't likely to outperform any of the competition, but quiet and good enough for many modest systems. It's pretty clear that even our lowly Intel 520 processor is a bit much for it, which pretty much counts out any of Intel's current desktop processors --- if the way you use your PC is to push the processor to 100% load constantly, which is not likely for most users. Looking around the corner to Core 2 Duo and 35W parts from AMD, the Alpine could be a budget-minded silencer's best friend. Here's why: Pretty much any aftermarket heatsink should be able to handle a 35W processor . . . . But, with the fan turned down, the Alpine can be silent --- if your processor is cool enough. And, chances are, there will be quite a few processors that the Alpine can cool at minimum speed . . . . Only time and lots of user reports wll tell whether our low-airflow test results are anomalous. But, if you have a cool processor and US$15 to spare, it's worth a shot." [emphasis mine]

In other words, I don't need massive tower heat sinks, just something that will remain inaudible and serve its design purpose. Much like using higher rated PSUs that are overkill for most systems, I think many CPU heat sinks are overkill too. My proposed system and usage qualifies as a "modest" system and the new 45W CPU is not like other CPUs. I realize many folks here at SPCR are enthusiasts, but sometimes other folks just want something adequate, not overkill. If the Arctic cooler fan is inaudible, then the cooler itself should be good enough for a 45W CPU.

Assuming the person with the configuration is not a temperature freak.

I'm not. :) Unless the temps start rising toward upper limits. :shock:

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Post by jaganath » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:24 am

Additionally, I never have read anything here at SPCR that indicates the Antec PSUs are top-heavy favorites for silence purists.
Antec has 4 PSUs on the Recommended list and the SU380 which is bundled w/ several cases also received a very favourable review. Only Seasonic has more recommended models.

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Post by klankymen » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:48 pm

woodsman wrote:Why spend money on an additional and unnecessary component?
because it allows you to use quieter fans.

also, regarding hard drives, I think a laptop drive would be quieter but ok.

why don't you just try the build, though I would however use a scythe ninja cpu heatsink instead.

if it really is too loud you can buy some yate loon fans for 3 dollars a piece, no real difference considering the price of a computer.

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Post by Aris » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:15 pm

ive owned one of the so called "legendary" seagate barracuda 4's. A single platter samsung notebook drive is quieter. Noticably quieter. If you are really seeking "inaudible operation" then it can not be done on a 3.5" format. Even in a scythe enclosure you'll still hear the seeks on a 3.5" drive.

PWM doesnt always work well with all fans, and fans dont tell you up front if they work well with PWM or not. You may end up getting PWM fans that are louder because of excess noise generated from being controlled with PWM over using a voltage controlled fan controller.

MikeC has done a few reviews on the need to thermally seperate a PSU airflow region from the rest of the case to keep a system silent. If you get a fanless PSU, you'll need a fan to cool it anyhow. If you use the same fan as the rest of your system it will need to be run faster than if the PSU was thermally seperated from the rest of the system with its own quiet fan. 2x fans running slower rather than 1x fan at a higher rpm is more quiet.

The prepackaged PSU in the NSK3480 is an Antec EW 380w. Its slightly larger Antec EW 430w has been reviewed by this site, and is on the recommended list. Other than the Neo HE 430w, the antec ew is the next highest ranked antec PSU. Many people still claim issue's with the neo he, so the earthwatts is the next best choice for a "airflow front to back" configuration. It is 80+ certified. Though i understand the case itself doesnt meet your needs, the included PSU should not be a factor.

I use a MotD CPU with a TDP of only 35w, and i still use a thermalright Ultra 90 on it with an undervolted 92mm nexus. Sure it may be overkill, but i will never have to worry about it reguardless of ambient temps. A few extra bucks for quality and effeciency is worth it IMO.

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Post by JoeWPgh » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:39 am

I tried an Alpine 7 on a Anthlon 4400 and it wasn't what I'd call quiet, or effective. Now, it was in an nvidia box with less than optimal airflow, but the box isn't used for anything other than watching/recording cable TV.

At the quietest setting, it was still audible and gave me idle temps in the low to mid 40's C. When using media center, the temps were routinely within +/- 2 degrees of 50. Because I needed a low profile, I went with a ZALMAN CNPS 8000 and my CPU temps dropped by 12/13 degrees C.
In a better ventilated case with the lower temp CPU, you'll do better with an Alpine than I did, but if you're looking for noiseless, I'd keep looking.

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Post by Aris » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:11 pm

JoeWPgh wrote:I tried an Alpine 7 on a Anthlon 4400 and it wasn't what I'd call quiet, or effective. Now, it was in an nvidia box with less than optimal airflow, but the box isn't used for anything other than watching/recording cable TV.

At the quietest setting, it was still audible and gave me idle temps in the low to mid 40's C. When using media center, the temps were routinely within +/- 2 degrees of 50. Because I needed a low profile, I went with a ZALMAN CNPS 8000 and my CPU temps dropped by 12/13 degrees C.
In a better ventilated case with the lower temp CPU, you'll do better with an Alpine than I did, but if you're looking for noiseless, I'd keep looking.
i agree. I dont even know why you'd take the risk. You save maybe 10-15 bucks going with the arctic cooling over something from thermalright or zalman or scythe, and you risk the system being audible? Why even chance it? Is your budget really that tight? That was ultimately what it amounted to me. I just didnt want to risk trying to be frugal and end up with a sub par product. I was willing to shell out a few more dollars so that i was guarenteed to get the outcome i was looking for.

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Post by woodsman » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:03 pm

Thanks for the responses everybody!

My PSU choice stays --- I want one less fan to worry about. I don't envision a 45W CPU and integrated graphics motherboard dissipating gobs of heat or sucking a lot of juice, especially for my usage. A 300W PSU is more than sufficient for my selection list. These fanless PSUs would not have remained on the market if they continually failed to produce and I am at peace with any safety concerns. I accept that typically a fanless PSU requires a chassis fan to remove heat and that is part of my plan.

I can modify my list to use a Nexus or Yate Loon chassis exhaust fan. No big deal there.

My choice for hard drives stays. I appreciate the caution and understand that 2.5 inch drives generally are quieter than 3.5 inch drives. I can't speak for other people and their experiences, but I know that my Barracuda IV drives are silent --- and that is the end of that element of this discussion. ;)

That leaves me contemplating a CPU cooler.

With the newer 45W Brisbanes I suspect almost any compatible heat sink will provide the necessary heat removal capacity. I'm guessing I can get by with passive CPU cooling, but I don't mind a cooler fan running at a very low inaudible speed, either through undervolting or PWM. Some nominal air flow is always a good strategy.

I also like the heat pipe concept in CPU coolers.

My initial reason for selecting an Arctic was the low profile and the SPCR review indicated that with low-power CPUs the cooler should be a good budget choice. Several people here at the forum disagree, however, with respect to my criterion for an inaudible box. Fair enough --- I'll accept actual experience over paper data any day. :) So what to choose?

Budget is not my sole criteria. If I have to pay $50 or so for a cooler that will contribute toward an inaudible box, then that is life. I don't need overkill, but I firmly want an inaudible box. As I wrote in my original post, I'm not a gamer or overclocker. With the new 45W CPUs, inaudible should be achievable.

So I head back to the basics and review the SCPR recommendation list:

Thermalright Ultra 120: 160.5 mm, 745 g
Scythe Ninja SCNJ-1100P: 150 mm, 665 g
Thermalright HR-01: 159.5 mm, 525 g

Initially I was concerned about the high-tower type coolers like the Thermalright Ultra 120, HR-01, and Scythe Ninja. These coolers are the crème do la crème and should be a first choice. I lack relevant first-hand experience with cooler height and cases. The Scythe Ninja is the shortest of the three towers, but one thread indicates that the Scythe Ninja and Ultra-120 fits in the Solo. Therefore, so should the HR-01. So scratch that concern.

However, all of these premiere high-tower models are heavy and exceed the recommended maximum cooler weight (450 g). I have not read of any disaster stories with these large coolers, but I prefer to remain cautious. According to the SPCR review, most of the Scythe Ninja weight is at the base, removing much concern about the cantilever effect. I saw the thread somewhere here where somebody used a fishing leader to secure the top end of a high-tower cooler to relieve some of the cantilever weight stress on the motherboard and mounting bracket. I can tinker and that approach is doable.

Still, is the Scythe Ninja or HR-01 overkill for a 45W CPU? If so, should I look at coolers with a lower profile and less weight --- or perhaps consider a larger case?

Moving through the SPCR recommended list for lower profile coolers I find the Thermalright XP-120 (63 mm, 370 g). As far as I can tell, that cooler does not fit the AM2 socket.

Another lower profile option is the Apack ZeroTherm BTF80 (128 mm, 458 g). However, the SPCR review left me doubtful with respect to a truly inaudible system.

Next would be the various radial Zalmans. None of the SPCR reviews tickled me, however, with respect to a truly inaudible box.

Perhaps the Scythe Ninja or HR-01, overkill or not, are the most straightforward choices?

One possible inexpensive hack is to use the stock AMD cooler --- without the stock fan. Then somehow rig a Nexus or Yate Loon to blow air on the cooler and voltage regulators. After all, I need a heat sink capable of removing only a maximum of 45W and nominal air flow should provide that need. Is this a lame idea or doable with a 45W Brisbane?

I'll appreciate cooler recommendations while I continue my own research. I'm particularly interested in those folks who are cooling Athlon X2 dual cores, either passively or inaudibly with fans. Thanks.

Aris
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Post by Aris » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:23 pm

Thermalright makes smaller tower heatpipe coolers. I put the Ultra 90 on my MotD Pentium M with a TDP of 35w. It will actually run fine completely passive, but i put a 6v nexus 92mm fan on it just for my own peace of mind. The fan is completely inaudible with the case closed up. I went with it over larger options merely because of my motherboard layout wouldnt allow for a larger heatsink, but it is also not as tall and weighs less. It may be the "right" size/performance for you.

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Post by MikeC » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:14 pm

Just few comments from another old timer... :wink:

I was probably one of the very first S.B IV users back in 2002 (2001?)... and the loudest proponent of their acoustic benefits. At one point, there were some 6~8 of these drives, both 20 and 40GB, in the lab. Now the lab is down to 2 B-IVs and 2 B-Vs. When I compare them to the latest quiet drives -- the WDs and the Samsungs, I find that the B-IVs have a touch of high pitched whine that the others don't have. But they still have just about the lowest vibration of any 3.5" HDD.

When I compare the B-IVs and B-Vs with quiet current 2.5" SATA drives, the best from Samsung and Seagate (etc) are quieter, and have NO high freq noise at all. Their vibration levels are even lower again. The best new notebook drives are clearly superior from an acoustic and vibrational standpoint; they barely need a suspension -- the B-IV and B-V definitely need to be suspended to be quiet enough, imo. Heatwise, there's no contest -- 2.5" drives idle at about a watt, compare to 7~9W for 3.5" ones.

Today, the old Barracudas in the lab are used in non-critical apps -- like heatsink testing systems, temporary system builds for testing, etc. The risk of data loss due to failure becomes steadily greater as HDDs age, so starting about 18 months ago, I replaced them out of the core PCs at SPCR.

None of the above suggests you can't build an inaudible system with B-IVs in them, but there are increased risks with aging machinery, and they no longer have the clear acoustic superiority they used to have.

With regard to the HS, I agree with others -- the quality of the AC fan in that cooler isn't in the same class as the best separate fans -- Nexus, Yate Loon, Scythe, etc. I'd personally recommend going overkill on the HS and running it either fanless or with a super quiet fan at barely starting speed. With most of the big HS we recommend, the cantilever weight effect is not serious, especially if the system is rarely going to be move about. Ninja, SI-128, U-120 -- all are good choices. Forget the Apack, Zalman and almost any other integrated fan HS -- they won't do for your box, the fans aren't quiet enough. Your stock HS fan hack will also work; obviously requires more work & trial & error.

woodsman
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Post by woodsman » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:51 am

I put the Ultra 90 on my MotD Pentium M with a TDP of 35w.
Coincidentally, I read more about the Ultra-90 after posting. Sounds like all I need and less top-heavy than the Ultra-120 or Scythe Ninja. I think one reason why that model slipped past me is I tend to research through the newegg site and that model is listed as out of stock. Therefore probably a few weeks ago I saw that model but moved on. At that moment I did not look further or at any other stores. :(
I was probably one of the very first S.B IV users back in 2002 (2001?)
Yeah, I bought my first 'cuda about then too. I bought two more thereafter. Oddly, I thought hard drives never again would be a noise problem with computers, but apparently the mindless masses preferred speed and quantity more than silence and the consumer aspect won the battle. I think the latest green movement might remedy the hard drives noise problems, however.
Just few comments from another old timer...
Your reflections are reasonable. As I stated in my original post, newer drives are not out of the question but merely a secondary phase of my project. Yes, hard disks die. On the other hand, I am not a heavy disk "banger" and all things considered, my drives likely have a long way to go. Down the road new disks are likely, but my first phase is simply obtain a modern motherboard and minimal support for that. In the mean time my Barracuda IV drives are inaudible and they will suffice to help provide me a silent box.

Possibly too I own some exceptional drives that are quieter than even the standard Barracuda IV. Still, being finally able to run at full ATA-100 speed will provide me a nominal triple increase in throughput because my current old boxes are limited to ATA-33. So for the transition, those inaudible drives will be like new to me because they never ran at full design speed. And 40GB might not sound like much these days, but I'm not into MP3s, videos, etc. --- my current drives still have plenty of space remaining for my humble needs.

Potential data loss is a real possibility, but one old 'nix trick is to "strengthen" the partitions and file map markers using the dd command: dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hda. That will help rebuild the magnetic component of the disk information. Of course, almost nothing helps eventual mechanical failure. :)

Understand too that I am a relic with respect to "waste not want not." As long as my old Barracudas are humming inaudibly, I am likely to keep using them. ;)
Forget the Apack, Zalman and almost any other integrated fan HS -- they won't do for your box, the fans aren't quiet enough.
I think for now I'll stick with the Ultra-90 and a good 120mm chassis fan to provide some nominal air flow through the heat sink.
Your stock HS fan hack will also work; obviously requires more work & trial & error.
I lack the lab or "basement" hacking relevance of many SPCRers, but I cool my current primary box in this manner. Yes, the CPU is "only" a 400 MHz K6-III+, but I nonetheless am using a stock Pentium MMX heat sink. I mounted an undervolted 92mm chassis fan to blow directly toward the motherboard to provide nominal air flow. The PSU fan also is undervolted to about 7 volts and that provides my exhaust flow. Thus this particular hack idea is hardly new, but I agree I will have to experiment with all new hardware. I'm not concerned about the heat transfer capability of a stock heat sink. Simple warranty problems require that they function correctly. The trick is to get proper air flow around the heat sink to keep temperatures stable --- and remain inaudible. I am optimistic with the newer 45W Brisbanes that the hack is readily doable. When I finally obtain the components I will experiment first with this hack before trying a recommended SPCR cooler. I won't be in any hurry to put the new box into production, so I will be able to monitor temperatures easily for several days. If the hack fails then I move to the next step of obtaining a better heat sink solution.

But for now I'll update my original list accordingly.

WAS:
Arctic Cooling Alpine 7 CPU Heat Sink/Fan
Arctic Cooling AF12L 120mm chassis fan

CHANGE TO:
Thermalright Ultra-90 CPU Heat Sink w/Nexus 92mm fan
Case Fan: Nexus or Scythe S-FLEX SFF21E 120mm

Thanks everybody!

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Post by doveman » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:41 pm

Just a late suggestion. Whilst I have no experience with them, I would have thought that an Artic Freezer 64 HSF might work well with the fan removed and a quieter one used to blow air onto it.

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Post by ronrem » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:55 pm

I don't see much point in any HS other than a Ninja for a mid-power Very quiet system-unless You are using a Big Fan design.

I'd probably go with the Saegates for now-but in a year or so-would get an SATA Samsung T (desktop) but do it in an eSATA as the system drive. If you take the quietest 3.5 drive-enclose it and stow it under the desk,on padding-likely you won't hear ANYTHING from the system's busiest HDD. As secondary/storage drives-your Seagates may add a few years to their lives,being much less active-having them stay in the main case can't hurt.

Zen's appear to tolerate mediocre airflow setups. Bluefront mounted his hanging several inches out the back-something I'd done before with a conventional PSU. He later built an add-on top chamber

I did a few sketches on a tall tower which would moutn the mobo horizontal-the HD's in a chamber below. Above the Mobo is a hinged "box" with a 220 mm fan that pulls air from the floor level-up past the mobo-through a Dominnator heatsink. ABOVE the fan-is where a Zen PSU and the DVD drive live. The Zen gets to have some side venting and there's air motion.

The point however-is that to get advantage from a fanless-you want it as "unenclosed" as possible-yet getting a little airflow from whatever case fan,you don't want the haet from the CPU/PSU/Vid just getting trapped and shared.

Basically....your whole plan is quite good.. If you are getting a new DVD-get SATA to leave the IDE free for HD's

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Post by VanWaGuy » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:26 pm

A co-worker who introduced me to Silent PC review just ordered parts for a system, and his list started out very similar to yours. He ranks low power a little ahead of quiet, but it is a very close second for him. Even your description of your decision to go with the lower power version of the CPU sounded like him.

He is using same CPU, Solo case, same memory. He said he may post to this forum, so till I got further into your list, I thought I knew this PC build. :)

He made some interesting choices a little different than your list.

1) How often do you use a floppy? If you are concerned about quiet, why put up with floppy noise every time you reboot? I think he would just open the case and plug in a floppy if he were ever to need one, but has not had to yet.

2) Just like the above, he also has an external DVD burner that is unplugged most of the time. He has ripped his CD collection to hard disk, so only needs an optical drive for occaisional use too. (He will be running Ubuntu as his host OS with a few virtual machines.)

3) For quiet power supply, and also not much heat being introduced, he is going to try the Pico PSU. Since the Pico PSU will leave a large opening at the top rear of the case, he is planning to remove the rear fan (so it will not just suck air from where power supply would be), put in a recommended, undervolted front fan and run positive pressure. (Being that open, probably will not build up much pressure, but he will have more forced intake air than exhaust.)

He has used laptop drives for the last few years, but will be trying a Samsung 400GB drive suspended (in a Solo) and he hopes that will be quiet enough.

He also plans to undervolt, keep the CPU as cool as possible, and is going to try the Alpine for cooling.

I will be interested to see how your build and my friends compare.

The Gangrel
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Post by The Gangrel » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:50 am

If you were willing to make your own case/turn your case upside down, you could mount a fan on the bottom of the psu(any bog standard 300w jobby) blowing towards the heatsink, you could use pretty much any fan you like and two birds die with just the one stone.

albert
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Post by albert » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:12 am

I'm running an M2NPV-VM with an AMD X2 4200. The Ninja cools the CPU passively without any trouble (though it is positioned right next to the case fan - an undervolted Nexus 120). The problem is the northbridge of the mobo, which runs quite hot and so needs reasonable airflow across it.

Hope this helps.

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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:35 am

if i had that psu, I would place it on top of the box in the open air. I have a phantom 350, fanless psu. it needs some sort of fan in the case, I have one 120 mm on the rear. I use a zalman reserator 1 kit on gpu and cpu. Oddly though, I have ax1900 card and a 4200+ 2.2ghz proc. The rear fan makes noise, not a lot but is audible. it is a 120mm Papst fan, the older one that was hand balanced and such. (beast of a fan for longevity and cooling, smoooth too).

I do not think a dual core is good for an inaudible system. no matter what you do, it still doubles the heat for a small performance difference in things that you do. Yes, they rock, I love them, but inaudible is a different goal...

also, the barracuda WAS the reference drive. if you read a bit about MikeC's current models, there are some 300gb+ drives that are QUIETER on idle. notebook drives are really the only thing in an inaudible box.

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